Udyr Absolutely Suffocates Non-Meta Junglers
Udyr
It's way worse than anything except pre-nerf Graves. I'm seriously thinking he's a bit overtuned atm. He has held the highest win rate for 2 patches now too.
33 Comments
Reformedfindlay10 votesHe's basically unduelable ever since they allowed him to multi-dot on one instance of tiger stance (not having to recast tiger stance).
Decent udyrs also know how to double dot quicklyby sitting on third auto with q available, and if they have access to it legit no melee jg in the game can compete with udyr.
NA Darklarik8 votesUdyr isnt overtuned, he is sort of strong at best given the state of the meta, thats it. And of course he is unduelable, that has always been meant to be one of his strengths, he has always been a dueling heavy champ. This concept of "Oh my champ got outdueled by X nerf him please" is the very mentality that lead to ADC's being able to self peel, out duel, and out run most melee champs and many fighters, which is bullshit.
He is literally a melee only champ with no significant power spike from an ultimate ability, in a meta marked by disgusting amounts of mobility and cc on any champ. Most champs, most ADCs literally can either keep up or easily kite him if they are somewhat competent. He has poor teamfighting, is very gold dependant to be of any use, and is insanely kiteable.
Stop complaining. He has his strengths and very clear weaknesses, unlike so many other champs who have historically been overturned or meta strong and had no windows of counterplay. If your expecting to beat him in what he excels your just stubborn.
Azadethe1 votesHe's duelable. You just need to mind your melee range and have some CC, or OP True damage. Almost every skirmisher out duels Udyr.
Really what gates Udyr isn't his kit. It's whether or not he gets off the ground level 3-4. If he gets denied jung, he's fodder the rest of the game. If he gets 1-2 kills, he'll snowball faster than any traditional champs.
NA Darklarik1 votes** Almost every skirmisher out duels Udyr. **
[sg-miss-fortune] [sg-miss-fortune] [sg-miss-fortune]
Are you kidding me? What elo are you? [slayer-jinx-unamused]
Azadethe2 votesDiamond II. And I've both played and played against Udyr for 5 Seasons. I can 1v1 him with a friggin 
. That's how predictable and counterable he is.
The only time he ever gets to be a threat is when a team lets him free farm and get 1-2 early game kills.... because those kills synergize with his skill stacking well and get him earlier boots.
Line based skill shots destroy him. Roots destroy him. 
destroys him.
destroys him.
He's one of the only champs in the entire game which neither has skills that can hit over walls or a wall bypassing mechanic. He literally has to reach you to do harm, and the game is full of movement speed bonuses atm.
MetalGearTeemo1 votesDiamond II. And I've both played and played against Udyr for 5 Seasons. I can 1v1 him with a friggin
I'm sorry I just had to come in here and LAUGH at this.
Video please, this I gotta fucking see. [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]
Fondling Gems1 votesHonestly I could see it just because of her E slows and passive giving her movespeed. She couldn't stand there dueling him, but with an item or two Nami is honestly one of the best champs in the game at kiting melees.
Azadethe1 votesShe can kite Udyr without shoes because of her passive as well.... and Udyr is one of the most predictable champs in the game to land a Bubble on as well. You can literally have a meme chase across the map that lasts 2-3 minutes where Udyr cannot catch Nami, because her move speed bursts + reliable cc prevent him from ever getting close to her.
Then again..... I can generally 4-5 man bubble during a chase unless they have a champ like 
or who just are impossible to hit before they can skill out of the .78 second delay on Nami's Q.
NA Darklarik1 votesDiamond II. And I've both played and played against Udyr for 5 Seasons. I can 1v1 him with a friggin
The only time he ever gets to be a threat is when a team lets him free farm and get 1-2 early game kills.... because those kills synergize with his skill stacking well and get him earlier boots.
Line based skill shots destroy him. Roots destroy him.
He's one of the only champs in the entire game which neither has skills that can hit over walls or a wall bypassing mechanic. He literally has to reach you to do harm, and the game is full of movement speed bonuses atm.
by gods i dont know what noob udyrs you have been playing against. While i wont argue against his weaknesses saying he can be outdueled by anyone is just plain false. I could gloat about outdueling vaynes with any champion it wont change the fact she is a powerful duelist and not anyone can do it.
Zeppelins circus5 votesunduelable, cannot outrun, has single target cc. If you meet him you are more than dead since he will take all your camps with it too which even kha'zix can't pull off.
Onotori3 votes"Udyr is the worst champ in the game"
SEKAI2 votes"Udyr is the worst champ in the game"
He was. I remember there was a period he was so bad almost nobody played him and stat sites had not even enough sample size of him to form data.
But then he became OP, and hasn't come down since.
Azadethe1 votesI don't know what you think made him gain some miraculous status....
-He still has that garbage tier Q that lost about 1/4 of its damage.
-Ap ratios on R were also nerfed.
-W is still transformed into both a garbage tier shield and heal from what used to be a good one....
-Most of the people he countered have been overbuffed/reworked and now counter him ( especially)
I know he still feels oppressive when fed, but that's any champ whose fed.
SEKAI1 votesI don't know what you think made him gain some miraculous status....
-He still has that garbage tier Q that lost about 1/4 of its damage. -Ap ratios on R were also nerfed. -W is still transformed into both a garbage tier shield and heal from what used to be a good one.... -Most of the people he countered have been overbuffed/reworked and now counter him (
I know he still feels oppressive when fed, but that's any champ whose fed.
He still has a MINIMUM of 51%+ win rate with ample amount of pick rate across ALL elos, with the best performing divisions approaching 53% or 54% or so win rate. And this has been the case at least as early as the start of Season 8, where NONE of his win rate in ANY elo at ANY point so far AFTER has even remotely gone down below 51%. And we still somehow believe Udyr is still garbage and has never been strong?
Also, Udyr is NOT countered by Yi. Yi currently has a 47% win rate against Udyr, and he certainly has seen far lower; that's not a stat of someone supposedly countering Udyr.
Azadethe1 votesI don't care about win rate. He's a relatively low skill cap champ so that's actually normal. I know Udyr mechanically, and perhaps I just play a whole list of champs who counter him, or play champs he counters better than the average of the population.
I had an Udyr picked vs me as a 
jungler yesterday.
I told my team level 1 he was smurfing to boost a 
, to be cautious, and ward well. Guess what they didn't do?
Udyr started off 8/1, giving him the snowball. Team raged that I wasn't ganking or as mobile as him.
Udyr's current highest win rate is vs Pyke.
Guess what? We lost. But not because of me. I went 16/3/6 while Udyr ended 8/4/10.
All his deaths were me.
So why did we lose?
Well.... my team was comprised of a very "happy" list of champs who can't run from Udyr: 
and an oblivious 
who was practically inting by virtue of pushing out his lane over and over and being the easy target of 3v1 ambushes with Aurelian and Udyr.
This is why Udyr's win rate is up. It doesn't have anything to do with his kit. It doesn't have anything to do with his items. It has to do with a team being oblivious to what giving him an early lead does (He outjungled me 313 CS to 166 CS, because I was too busy cleaning up my team's messes to farm).
That, and most Udyr counter champions have a really low play rate right now due to various item/skill kit changes. Hard CC teams are being less chosen. 
and 
are second tier adcs now, as is 
. 
etc aren't being common mid picks.
Almost all the current meta are champs who relatively don't get hurt by itemization..... who coincidentally are low on CC/Mobility.
Aka: His opponent's decline is his advantage.
P.S. and Yes. Yi DOES counter Udyr if he gets online. You can only Bear stance once per duel. Which means Yi can wait it out, and then Meditate on its cooldown until Alpha Strike is primed up, which when solo hits 5 times, and Face tank R/E and then he outdamages Udyr. Yi's skills are also auto attack resets, and Udyr's are not. When you change a stance on Udyr there's a significant attack pause that plays a role in winning this duel.
Udyr wins the overall matchup not via duels with Yi, but isolating him in team fights. The stun is powerful at shutting him down when his team is involved.
SEKAI1 votesI don't care about win rate. He's a relatively low skill cap champ so that's actually normal. I know Udyr mechanically, and perhaps I just play a whole list of champs who counter him, or play champs he counters better than the average of the population.
There is a reason why I specifically include high elo when assessing Udyr, because that's the environment when "barrier to entry" skill floor is absent and lower skill cap being an actual handicap to the player. And in this environment, Udyr still does incredibly well. So what does that say? It says Udyr is too strong, or at least as far as solo queue is concerned, ain't not a single doubt about that; it can't get anymore obvious than this.
I had an Udyr picked vs me as a
Udyr started off 8/1, giving him the snowball. Team raged that I wasn't ganking or as mobile as him.
Udyr's current highest win rate is vs Pyke.
Guess what? We lost. But not because of me. I went 16/3/6 while Udyr ended 8/4/10.
All his deaths were me.
So why did we lose?
Well.... my team was comprised of a very "happy" list of champs who can't run from Udyr:
This is why Udyr's win rate is up. It doesn't have anything to do with his kit. It doesn't have anything to do with his items. It has to do with a team being oblivious to what giving him an early lead does (He outjungled me 313 CS to 166 CS, because I was too busy cleaning up my team's messes to farm).
Anecdotal evidence of a single match is utterly meanless in the eyes of statistics compiled from millions of matches and from across all regions and divisions, especially given you probably also picked to talk about that match with at least some hint of personal bias. It's also rather telling of your priorities and stance when you admit to completely ignore very well sampled and detailed statistics and its analysis and see them as meaningless, yet seem to think this 1 match you had to be a better representation of the topic and argument for the matter.
That, and most Udyr counter champions have a really low play rate right now due to various item/skill kit changes. Hard CC teams are being less chosen.
Almost all the current meta are champs who relatively don't get hurt by itemization..... who coincidentally are low on CC/Mobility.
Aka: His opponent's decline is his advantage.
I guess Udyr winning against almost the entire jungle roster by default atm is the fault of others not being up to snuff and not because he's currently too strong? I mean, sure, that's the 2 sides of the same coin; but wouldn't anyone look at this situation and think that Udyr is the one who needs to get fixed and not like idk, 35 other junglers, and possibly like idk, 100 other champs on the roster?
Also, no. Udyr was reigning supreme at the start of Season 8 when the meta shift hadn't happened anyway, and in fact he was actually performing even better then. It's just that he completely went under the radar for some reason, despite sporting constant 53+% win rate even in high elo at the time. So it's not like your thesis was really on the mark anyway.
P.S. and Yes. Yi DOES counter Udyr if he gets online. You can only Bear stance once per duel. Which means Yi can wait it out, and then Meditate on its cooldown until Alpha Strike is primed up, which when solo hits 5 times, and Face tank R/E and then he outdamages Udyr. Yi's skills are also auto attack resets, and Udyr's are not. When you change a stance on Udyr there's a significant attack pause that plays a role in winning this duel.
Udyr wins the overall matchup not via duels with Yi, but isolating him in team fights. The stun is powerful at shutting him down when his team is involved.
Define "online", because if you're talking about Yi leading like 14/0/8 and Udyr being like 0/7/1 then ofc Yi will destroy Udyr's ass. But that's not what we should set the standards to.
Statistically speaking, which again something you are willingly to utterly ignore for some reason, Yi has a 7% win rate difference when matched against Udyr according to opgg so that's the stats from Plat+. Similar stats are concluded from League of Graphs, where it noted a 10% win rate difference between Udyr and Master Yi in the former's favour when they're matched together.
Look from another angle, let's look at early game jungle stats: Udyr leads Yi undisputed-ly in terms of both gold and xp almost throughout the entire match, despite Yi consistently clearing faster than Udyr as recorded by opgg. This means Udyr either invades Yi often and wins most of the trades and kills Yi, or he ganks far more successfully than Yi, or both, gaining the gold and xp lead.
What does it say? Well, in a realistic setting, Yi rarely ever comes to the "online" of your definition against Udyr, probably because you know, Udyr owns the guy since literally level 1, and most likely as proven by the stats, will keep on owning him until almost the end of the match, making Udyr a counterpick to Yi and not the other way around?
Also, to pick apart the arguments you raised here specifically:
- Yi only has 1 AA reset in his entire kit, being his W, which is also his only sustain ability, which is also on a 35 second CD. "Yi's skills are also auto attack resets", sure, sure, I'd thought the plural indicates more than 1 but I guess just 1 is good too... and that specifically bringing it out indicates that it plays a big role somehow and not that a very situational use of a spell that also has an insane CD for a normal spell; hey, I also heard Volibear has insane burst damage spells! And let's not forget that while Udyr has no AA reset, he does have stacking mini-Highlander that's stackable every time he change stances, and in fact has 2 spells that boosts attack speed, so it's not like he's missing out a shit ton.
- Yi also can't really "meditate it out" with his W against Udyr, because 1) if you use the W for AA reset as you suggested then it's out of commission for the duel. 2) Udyr can easily outdamage the heal and damage resistance since his Tiger Stance's DoT can duplicate and stack with itself as well as the fact Rageblade will reduce the stacking condition which also immensely increases his standing DPS by yet another significant boost, making Yi using channeling full Meditate an EXTREMELY unwise choice against any decently fed Udyr.
- Alpha Strike can not be used more than once per fight unless he scores a take-down refresh, because its CD even in the highest level is still 14 seconds without CDR. So the "waiting" in the middle of the duel is meaningless anyway.
- There is only a "significant pause" to Udyr after stance changes if you're a moron and forgot to right click the enemy after the cast (and if this is a weakness, then Yi has this too?); and if you're considering the non-sharing stacking between stance changes, I'd already mentioned that Rageblade reduces the '3 hits to trigger' to 2.
- You're also ignoring that Udyr also vastly outsustains Yi given his sustain is both instant, combative, spammable, un-cancel-able; and unlike Yi's defensive W has a resistance and healing aspect easily ignored by Udyr's high standing DPS, and a channel that can both be easily interrupted and grounds Yi from doing anything in the meantime forcing him and together with its insane CD to choose between defence and offence as well as other conservation aspects, which is a decision Udyr does not need to make at all by comparison.
- Udyr also does win both the duels AND the matchups against Yi the vast majority of the time, that's why Yi does so horribly against Udyr, and is in fact countered by Udyr and not countering Udyr.
Azadethe1 votes-
Low skill comparisons are relevant at high elo.
-
My Priorities? I haven't avidly played Udyr since Season 5. He's in my dumpster, because all he's good at is picking up split pushes vs the game's overabundance of CC/slows.
-
He doesn't win matches by out dueling them. He wins matches by being a split pusher/ Solo objective taker, and the stats prove that.
And most junglers are pretty close to a 50%/50% with Udyr.
- I'm not discussing a 14/0 Yi. I'm discussing a 0/0 Yi vs a 0/0 Udyr.
Udyr has a 4% win rate advantage vs Yi, but it's not because of duels. It's because of team play.... and objective advantage....
In a Duel, Yi wins when played correctly.
- About your points.
A) You're wrong about auto attack resets. Q is also an auto attack reset and behaves differently when used on a champion vs when used on a minion.
Q vs a Champion IMMEDIATELY auto attacks right after the Q as its finish. Vs a Minion, it doesn't auto attack. Aka... Q = Q + an auto attack in a fight.
b) Meditate has nothing to do with standing still for 4 seconds. It reduces the damage on his initial Tiger Strike. If Udyr engages on Bear, he will directly use Tiger strike after. By the time Tiger is primed to attack, Yi can meditate to reduce the incoming damage. As soon as Yi experiences the bleed, he pops out of Meditate and begins combat. And if Udyr tries to Turtle stance to heal, Yi Alpha's forcing him to spend longer in turtle than he'd like to, or force him to miss the opportunity to heal if he's a button spammer and switches to Bear or Phoenix.
I want you to actually look at Udyr STATS in average per game.
-He ranks # 44 of all junglers in damage to champions per game.
-He ranks #17 in csing.
--He ranks # 18 in gold earned.
-#19 in killing sprees.
-# 46 in assists
In other words HE IS NOT WINNING BY DUELING.
He is winning by being a fast turret taker, drake taker, and collapsing lanes with little risk.
iPooUnicorns3 votesUdyr is essentially the gatekeeper to the jungle in the same way Renekton was the gatekeeper to top in older seasons. If a champion could go against Renekton and not auto-lose, the champion was viable. The same applies to Udyr in the jungle.
TheSingularity2 votesIt's way worse than anything except pre-nerf Graves
Feral flare udyr, sated devourer udyr, cinderhulk sejuani, pre nerf kassawin. OG akali, OG leblanc
nelogis3 votesFeral flare udyr, sated devourer udyr, cinderhulk sejuani, pre nerf kassawin. OG akali, OG leblanc
Tank Ekko, Tank Fizz, 6 Sunfire Evelynn, Win Nhao, pre Olaf'd Olaf, Ardent Cancer
TheSingularity1 votesnever saw the eve one, I so gotta see this [zombie-brand-mindblown]
nelogis1 votesnever saw the eve one, I so gotta see this [zombie-brand-mindblown]
Of course you never saw it since she was invisible... haha... ha... I'm funny shut up
Anyway, basically at the early days of league Riot didn't really predict abusable stuff that well. For example that sunfire was able to be stacked (the passive burn I mean).
So you got your Rammus rolling in and burning you alive while you also killed yourself while hitting him.
One of the more funny ones was Evelynn tho. Her invisiblity wasn't her passive back then but rather a basic ability that lasted like 50 seconds.
Stealth used to work differently back then. It only ended if you took damage or casted an attack. The Sunfire AOE didn't count as a "casted attack".
So what you did was to buy 6 Sunfire and burn people to death while walking around invisible. The damage wasn't absurd it was like 12K damager per min so 200 DPS pre mitigation.
If you were a champion with no AOE to cast then you were forced to retreat ^^. It got heavily nerfed (the passive burn from Sunfire was made unique) around December 2010 so you ended up with 2K damager per minute (34 DPS pre mitigation) which pretty much killed the playstyle/build.
It was pretty stupid but whole season 1 was basically a clown fiesta so.
HeimerLmao1 votesI think the Twitch 6 Tiamat one was dumber. Eve at least didn't oneshot people.
IcyPepper1 votesdoes anyone see Eve
remakoro1 votesIsnt that why they are NON-META? If they could do well without resorting to some kind of black magicks they wont be non-meta...
BestPudgeNA1 votesIt's way worse than anything except pre-nerf Graves. I'm seriously thinking he's a bit overtuned atm. He has held the highest win rate for 2 patches now too.
Udyr was 13th on 8.11 in terms of win rate not first. Udyr isn't a good champ and anyone who says otherwise isn't good at the game. Good champs don't go 2 years without seeing play in pro or being meta in master/challenger solo Q games like Udyr has.
Udyr's win rate is always inflated by the fact lots of good junglers enjoy playing the champ and almost nobody every picks him when autofilled JG. Whenever his pick rate goes up 5-6% his Win rate tanks.
PapaGreg211 votesIvern shuts him down every time. He is incredibly easy to kite
The Oasis1 votesI hope Udyr is on the next list of VGUs. No matter the meta, or if he's currently strong or not, I hate this cancerous ball of stats more than any other champ.
BobaFlautist1 votesThat's literally what he's designed to do. If he can't, he doesn't function.
Not that I think it's a healthy design, but it is his win condition.
Zeyphel1 votesWell, Udyr has been one of the most balanced champs during long time. Now, he starts to shine because the popular junglers received a nerf and everyone wants a nerf for him. That's sad.
This maybe doesn't seem too important but Udyr's lack of an Ult really impacts in its gameplay. Regardless if people agree or not agree right know with this, I will always consider him pretty balanced. Btw, he has counterplay.
RekSai CoffeeCo1 votesWell, Udyr has been one of the most balanced champs during long time. Now, he starts to shine because the popular junglers received a nerf and everyone wants a nerf for him. That's sad.
I hate to tell you this but it was the jungle/scuttle changes that created this not nerfing of popular junglers, there is no real diversity in jungle anymore.
Yenn1 votesYeah, Udyr is pretty useless unless you're not paying attention. Having to rely on movement speed gimps him against 75% of the roster; it's impossible to successfully gank with him unless the enemy isn't warding and over extended.
mabdu1 votesno dash, no ult, no gap closer, melee, a useless R, weak late. Only thing he has is a strong early game dueling potential. It's not the champ, its the meta, games end early now so it seems like he's OP. He shouldn't get nerfed and there are better junglers than him atm.
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