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@All Reds: This guy's amazing idea to fix the jungle

Khimera··16 votes·1,637 views
http://imgur.com/l4a2zz4

DISCLAIMER: I take no responsibility for any part of this following text. Simply trying to spread the word of possibly the best idea to repair the Season 5 jungle(if simply interested in the cange click the imgur link). This can be found on the League subreddit by chamility

"Look at support items that we got in patch 3.14. We got Spellthief's Edge, Ancient Coin and Relic Shield, all 3 of which can be built in greater items (Spellthief's Edge for AP supports, Talisman of Ascension for utility supports and Face of the Mountain for tanky supports). What Riot did is let supports start with the item that is best suited for them for the laning phase (e.g.: As a Leona you probably want to be tanky from the start and, because you have no sustain or a heal for your ADC, you probably want to pick up that Relic Shield) And after that supports didn't have to buy Rejuvenation Bead, a couple of wards and done. But what do we see with junglers? Exactly, everyone is put in the same position, be it Warwick or Nautilus. Everyone has to start with Hunter's Machete. I believe that this is the core problem of jungling, the diversity of first item that you can buy. I believe that junglers should be allowed to choose from different starting items (which will help weaker jungler, a.k.a. tanks). I don't know if Riot realizes that, but Quill Coat was the best moment tanks have had in jungle in a long time. It gave you enough sustain in jungle and on top of that you had a neat monster damage. Here's my take at improving the jungle: http://imgur.com/l4a2zz4 The only problem with it is that it would need a complete jungle item upgrade overhaul. tl;dr: Rito, delete Machete."

28 Comments

GtGW6 votes

I do believe the lack of itemization tailored towards different styles of play is what is curbing this trend of (Flavor of the Month) picks and bans on a consistent basis.

Given the limitations of slot efficiency and itemization, especially when you consider how large of a dichotomy there is between ranged and melee carries (the former can be either Marksmen or Mages, but the later is almost explicitly that of the AD Assassin caste in terms of competitive play), LoL could real do with more item choice between the different styles within given roles.

Damage can be dispensed through these patterns:

  • Burst
  • Damage Over Time
  • Sustained

Durability can be approached by statistical values of the champion in addition to other specific utilities:

  • Sustain
  • Damage Reduction
  • Damage Negation
  • Mobility/Evasiveness
  • Stealth

And Champions can potentially gain access to different utilities in the form of:

  • Buffs
  • Debuffs
  • Crowd Control Effects
  • Terrain Alterations
  • Projectile Interception
  • Non-personal Healing
  • Non-personal Shielding

However, there should be a clearer system in place of how certain utilities and their uses are afforded within a Champion's kit. The current meta is dominated by Champion picks with overloaded kits that combine Burst and Sustained Damage with Mobility and Hard Crowd Control (Knock-Ups, Snares, and Stuns).

This crowds out the majority of what would be considered harmonious or complete champions in terms of their own unique powers/niches as they may not necessarily have the tools to deal with these Champions. And while it is natural for there to be proper counter-picks and advantages on the basis of kit match ups - the gap is absolutely monstrous ever since the Armor and Magic Penetration changes from S3 came into being.

That was the beginning of the fall of dedicated tanks and the rise of fighters once more; who carry tankish qualities in the form of durability - but have higher mobility and damage afforded in their kits and item synergies.

Whilst I can agree the removal of Deathfire Grasp was healthy for the game at the time - this is largely as a result of the lack of itemization or defensive utilities in the game to counteract its ability to amplify an existing low-counterplay pattern: Burst.

Burst damage in particular has acquired a stranglehold upon the meta since S3, for while sustained damage dealers do overall greater DPS as a result of such changes - burst will be able to take down low to moderately durable champions. Those that exist on the spectrum of excess durability are usually of negligible value as a result of limited mobility to position themselves and apply their typical kit's payload of crowd-control to defend their allies.

If effective and balanced itemization and game-play is to be achieved; the trend of burst dominance needs to be pulled back and each of the different strategies afforded to the diverse pool of Champions in League of Legends are driven towards viability in both the casual and competitive levels of play. A potential implication and resultant change if this balance state becomes a reality would be another balancing lever in competitive play's use of bans.

Bans as they stand are currently used to remove Champions who wield overloaded kits - however, if every Champion holds viability in both the casual and competitive levels of play; bans could be far more diverse, relative to the pool of champions a player has affinity with.

Khimera2 votes

{quoted}

I do believe the lack of itemization tailored towards different styles of play is what is curbing this trend of (Flavor of the Month) picks and bans on a consistent basis.

Given the limitations of slot efficiency and itemization, especially when you consider how large of a dichotomy there is between ranged and melee carries (the former can be either Marksmen or Mages, but the later is almost explicitly that of the AD Assassin caste in terms of competitive play), LoL could real do with more item choice between the different styles within given roles.

Damage can be dispensed through these patterns:

  • Burst
  • Damage Over Time
  • Sustained

Durability can be approached by statistical values of the champion in addition to other specific utilities:

  • Sustain
  • Damage Reduction
  • Damage Negation
  • Mobility/Evasiveness
  • Stealth

And Champions can potentially gain access to different utilities in the form of:

  • Buffs
  • Debuffs
  • Crowd Control Effects
  • Terrain Alterations
  • Projectile Interception
  • Non-personal Healing
  • Non-personal Shielding

However, there should be a clearer system in place of how certain utilities and their uses are afforded within a Champion's kit. The current meta is dominated by Champion picks with overloaded kits that combine Burst and Sustained Damage with Mobility and Hard Crowd Control (Knock-Ups, Snares, and Stuns).

This crowds out the majority of what would be considered harmonious or complete champions in terms of their own unique powers/niches as they may not necessarily have the tools to deal with these Champions. And while it is natural for there to be proper counter-picks and advantages on the basis of kit match ups - the gap is absolutely monstrous ever since the Armor and Magic Penetration changes from S3 came into being.

That was the beginning of the fall of dedicated tanks and the rise of fighters once more; who carry tankish qualities in the form of durability - but have higher mobility and damage afforded in their kits and item synergies.

Whilst I can agree the removal of Deathfire Grasp was healthy for the game at the time - this is largely as a result of the lack of itemization or defensive utilities in the game to counteract its ability to amplify an existing low-counterplay pattern: Burst.

Burst damage in particular has acquired a stranglehold upon the meta since S3, for while sustained damage dealers do overall greater DPS as a result of such changes - burst will be able to take down low to moderately durable champions. Those that exist on the spectrum of excess durability are usually of negligible value as a result of limited mobility to position themselves and apply their typical kit's payload of crowd-control to defend their allies.

If effective and balanced itemization and game-play is to be achieved; the trend of burst dominance needs to be pulled back and each of the different strategies afforded to the diverse pool of Champions in League of Legends are driven towards viability in both the casual and competitive levels of play. A potential implication and resultant change if this balance state becomes a reality would be another balancing lever in competitive play's use of bans.

Bans as they stand are currently used to remove Champions who wield overloaded kits - however, if every Champion holds viability in both the casual and competitive levels of play; bans could be far more diverse, relative to the pool of champions a player has affinity with.

I really like how well put together this is and I hope this discussion keeps this productive brainstorming type trend. While I can't comment on everything you've said since I only started playing last year and it's clear to me you have more knowledge of this game than I do atm I would definitely agree that I've noticed this trend towards high mobility champions with incredibly diverse kits (i.e. Kalista , RekSai , Gnar , Bard upcoming) and while I think it's good that these kits are diverse, I believe it hurts a lot of the older champions in the game that weren't really designed the same way.

YOU BEEN WARNED2 votes

This is sane and understandable, unlike current jungle item entirely.

item 3707 : Very good stats, no sustain. ( forces you to gank unless item 3713, which makes guys like Sion & MonkeyKing sad )

item 3710 : Eh, it's good but still, no hp heal on hit. That stat is great for everyone who is not Warwick.

item 3708 : Good stats, nothing done about sustain again. However realistically, mages would be interested in 60 AP 10% CD & 15 MPEN. ( mana regen would be good as well. )

item 3709 : This item sucks mainly because it does not provide waveclear unlike the other items, neither is it that good for teamfighting. It was better with Armor and item 3075 effect. Honestly in league tenacity isn't that good, nor is it needed by TANKS. It's so bad, this item is one of the worst in the game.

I approve of suggested changes, but Riot loves their cocky designs so much; they wouldn't do what works best. They do "what they make, at the least effort expenditure as possible" which is bad for the balance of the game.

Khimera1 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ngANweeW,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-02-28T00:22:34.181+0000)

This is sane and understandable, unlike current jungle item entirely.

item 3707 : Very good stats, no sustain. ( forces you to gank unless item 3713, which makes guys like Sion & MonkeyKing sad )

item 3710 : Eh, it's good but still, no hp heal on hit. That stat is great for everyone who is not Warwick.

item 3708 : Good stats, nothing done about sustain again. However realistically, mages would be interested in 60 AP 10% CD & 15 MPEN. ( mana regen would be good as well. )

item 3709 : This item sucks mainly because it does not provide waveclear unlike the other items, neither is it that good for teamfighting. It was better with Armor and item 3075 effect. Honestly in league tenacity isn't that good, nor is it needed by TANKS. It's so bad, this item is one of the worst in the game.

I approve of suggested changes, but Riot loves their cocky designs so much; they wouldn't do what works best. They do "what they make, at the least effort expenditure as possible" which is bad for the balance of the game.

Yeah I'd just like for Riot to take something from this. This current replacement for juggernaut that they just added on surrender @ 20's pbe looks like a step in the right direction at least.

Amachy2 votes

Good thing the paid professionals are coming up with these ideas. Oh, wait!

Khimera2 votes

{quoted}

Good thing the paid professionals are coming up with these ideas. Oh, wait!

I would just really like a red comment on this because I feel like it'd further the discussion and give us some insight as to why things have been done the way they have. But they all seem to shy away from topics about the jungle.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

Good thing scum are being sarcastic on the forums, giving us no real insight and bringing nothing to the discussion!

OH

WAIT

#blackandblue

Amachy2 votes

{quoted}

Good thing scum are being sarcastic on the forums, giving us no real insight and bringing nothing to the discussion!

OH

WAIT

#blackandblue

Well kid, you sure brought a lot into this discussion, Oh wait.... Le hypocrite est too stronk.

Rinky Dinky1 votes

Its a good thing the first response got deleted

2dank5me

Khimera3 votes

{quoted}

Its a good thing the first response got deleted

2dank5me

Hey man trying to keep this thread as productive and not negative so I'd rather you not post if its just something rude, thanks

payroad2 votes

GENIUS WHY ISNT THIS ALREADY A THING

SouL1ess1 votes

Can we also add "monsters that attack you take 10 damage over 2 seconds" for all the paths (or just tank path)?

I think it will improve clearspeed for the tanky junglers who need it the most.

Khimera2 votes

{quoted}

Can we also add "monsters that attack you take 10 damage over 2 seconds" for all the paths (or just tank path)?

I think it will improve clearspeed for the tanky junglers who need it the most.

Yeah well I think that'd be great for just tanky junglers, but then probably would lead to the removal of one of the other two unique passives :p

SouL1ess1 votes

Oh right you had that blademail passive thing. 6% max hp sounds pretty good (if not a bit too strong IMO), and if that passive is in effect then please disregard my comment

Khimera1 votes

{quoted}

Oh right you had that blademail passive thing. 6% max hp sounds pretty good (if not a bit too strong IMO), and if that passive is in effect then please disregard my comment

Yeah the numbers could of course be tinkered with a bit. I just think this guy was really on the right track towards a better and more diverse jungle.

OhOkYeah1 votes

Why take the shield over the machete?

Khimera2 votes

{quoted}

Why take the shield over the machete?

I think the tough skin passive would be the reason since it'd help tankier junglers with perhaps slower clears get a health bonus that stacks up to 10 times which would help them last longer in the jungle and/or be in better position (healthwise) to gank.

OhOkYeah1 votes

It only helps if you're at full health, which most tanky jungler will not be at the early levels.

Khimera2 votes

{quoted}

It only helps if you're at full health, which most tanky jungler will not be at the early levels.

Ohhh I see what you mean now, well I'm sure Riot could find another more useful passive that tanky junglers would be able to utilize, maybe instead of 15 bonus max health, it could be they gain 15 flat health per large monster (Blue buff, Red buff, gromp) and 5 per smaller monster (small razorbeaks, little krug, etc.)

Khimera1 votes

{quoted}

Ohhh I see what you mean now, well I'm sure Riot could find another more useful passive that tanky junglers would be able to utilize, maybe instead of 15 bonus max health, it could be they gain back 15 flat health per large monster (Blue buff, Red buff, gromp) and 5 per smaller monster (small razorbeaks, little krug, etc.)

NorthernDruid1 votes

gromp->blue->wolves->4th camp->recall is almost or entirely fully stacked item. giving me 150 extra health. I then go take red and another camp and i'm plenty of healthy enough to gank.

The problem is really having enough damage, and the item can be tuned until the % bleed is high enough, especiall when combined with gromp buff and the relevant mastery.

Khimera1 votes

{quoted}

gromp->blue->wolves->4th camp->recall is almost or entirely fully stacked item. giving me 150 extra health. I then go take red and another camp and i'm plenty of healthy enough to gank.

The problem is really having enough damage, and the item can be tuned until the % bleed is high enough, especiall when combined with gromp buff and the relevant mastery.

Oh I like this alternative as i typically am able to do the same route.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

This set of items is a pretty cool thing. It does remind me a bit of the season 4 jungle item trees (which didn't do much to help with diversity), but it's worth further exploration.

I don't really think any itemization solution has real prospects of success. The fundamental problem is that the current top tier of junglers are just good at so many things. Even if you fix AP junglers and tank junglers so that they clear smoothly and have high sustain, they'll still be behind the top bruiser junglers because ganking, invading, initiating, and objective control are all easier with a generalist.

I think the solution is to nerf the top tier junglers so that they have weak points in their games. The Jarvan E nerf is a good start in this direction -- he's super good at ganking, dueling, and teamfighting, so he ought to be pretty bad at killing monsters. After that, we need to buff tank and AP junglers with an eye to giving them a particular role in the game.

Why do you choose a tank jungler over a bruiser jungler? Why do you choose a bruiser over an AP jungler? I don't feel like these questions have satisfying answers today. The classes need better definition here, and we need to stop having junglers that are good at everything you could want a jungler to be good at.

Khimera1 votes

{quoted}

This set of items is a pretty cool thing. It does remind me a bit of the season 4 jungle item trees (which didn't do much to help with diversity), but it's worth further exploration.

I don't really think any itemization solution has real prospects of success. The fundamental problem is that the current top tier of junglers are just good at so many things. Even if you fix AP junglers and tank junglers so that they clear smoothly and have high sustain, they'll still be behind the top bruiser junglers because ganking, invading, initiating, and objective control are all easier with a generalist.

I think the solution is to nerf the top tier junglers so that they have weak points in their games. The Jarvan E nerf is a good start in this direction -- he's super good at ganking, dueling, and teamfighting, so he ought to be pretty bad at killing monsters. After that, we need to buff tank and AP junglers with an eye to giving them a particular role in the game.

Why do you choose a tank jungler over a bruiser jungler? Why do you choose a bruiser over an AP jungler? I don't feel like these questions have satisfying answers today. The classes need better definition here, and we need to stop having junglers that are good at everything you could want a jungler to be good at.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. I also think something that's keeping a lot of champs from being good inside of the jungle is this baseline thats been set by the top tier junglers (such as Vi , JarvanIV , RekSai ). They all have some form of sustain or passive that helps them in the jungle while also having strong ganks that help them gank outside of the jungle. In addition to that, all of these champions have high base damage to where they can build their warrior enchantment, one damage item, then straight tank and still do a ton of damage while offering game-changing cc. When you have something like that which only a dozen (at most) junglers have, it makes it hard to really bring about jungle diversity.

GtGW1 votes

As a follow up in terms of how to avoid fringe abuse cases between the different intentions for how items are used between classes - the champion tags such as:

Primary: Fighter Secondary: Assassin

Items would gain statistical gold efficiency or inefficiency in relation to that champion's particular class tag.

While I anticipate this suggestion would be met with much resistance if not complete outrage - the intention and ideology would hopefully yield a better control lever for adjusting oppressive overlaps such as Fighters fulfilling a dedicated Tank's role better, or Mages fulfilling a dedicated Support's role and vice versa.

That is not to say alternative builds would or should be rendered unviable; but they should not be to the point that X champion becomes objectively superior to Y by a blatant landslide of statistical power that there should not be a reason to pick X and Y equally. They instead should be assessed on the unique strengths and assets that their kits bring to the game as is extremely evident in our next Champion Release - Bard.

Whilst a support and a dealer of primarily magic damage - Bard offers a distinct and unique set of assets (and potential liabilities) for his team that creates greater depth of strategy in how to work alongside or against his kit's strengths and weaknesses than (he's got a heal - but does not compete with Sona or Soraka's identities as healing supports, or Thresh as a character capable of conferring mobility to other Champions).

Khimera1 votes

{quoted}

As a follow up in terms of how to avoid fringe abuse cases between the different intentions for how items are used between classes - the champion tags such as:

Primary: Fighter Secondary: Assassin

Items would gain statistical gold efficiency or inefficiency in relation to that champion's particular class tag.

While I anticipate this suggestion would be met with much resistance if not complete outrage - the intention and ideology would hopefully yield a better control lever for adjusting oppressive overlaps such as Fighters fulfilling a dedicated Tank's role better, or Mages fulfilling a dedicated Support's role and vice versa.

That is not to say alternative builds would or should be rendered unviable; but they should not be to the point that X champion becomes objectively superior to Y by a blatant landslide of statistical power that there should not be a reason to pick X and Y equally. They instead should be assessed on the unique strengths and assets that their kits bring to the game as is extremely evident in our next Champion Release - Bard.

Whilst a support and a dealer of primarily magic damage - Bard offers a distinct and unique set of assets (and potential liabilities) for his team that creates greater depth of strategy in how to work alongside or against his kit's strengths and weaknesses than (he's got a heal - but does not compete with Sona or Soraka's identities as healing supports, or Thresh as a character capable of conferring mobility to other Champions).

ONLY problem with this is that those tags are honestly way too inaccurate. The other day my friends and I spent half an hour laughing of how Gangplank 's and Heimerdinger 's secondary roles were support while Nunu 's primary role was support. Don't get me wrong, I've seen all of them go down there bot before, but mostly in duo bot kill lanes, trolls, etc. Never competitively and ranked (at least not in my experiences). So before we did something like that, Riot would have to sort out these tags for champions because they are not very accurate atm XD

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