Guinsoo's kog is extremely overrated and is not the most efficient build for Kog'maw

bucket steak·Aug 25, 2018·3 votes·1,794 views

is bad because it's too hard to benefit from the max stacks, and it is a purely offensive item (does not offer lifesteal, mobility, etcetera).

In my opinion, the most efficient build is one which simply skips guinsoo's

This build is: (sell and buy after guardian angel)

Runes are also important, I have found the best runes with this build to be: Primary Lethal tempo + triumph + legend: bloodline + coup de grace Secondary taste of blood + ravenous hunter

Runes are designed to get you out of early game with a lot of innate sustain, and lethal tempo helps you better scale hard into late game to compensate trading off damage for more defensive items.

20 Comments

ZephyrDrakeAug 25, 20184 votes

if you think it's "overrated" then don't build it, I think that your build here is absolutely terrible though

bucket steakAug 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

if you think it's "overrated" then don't build it, I think that your build here is absolutely terrible though

I don't build it; I haven't done guinsoo's kog in weeks because it's nearly impossible to win with it (hence the 45% win rate on average for the build). My build is not horrible, my damage has jumped from about 16k per game to pretty consistently over 30k. The extra tankiness really helps with damage as you don't need to be as afraid of walking up, and nothing can one shot you in the late game. I've played over 10 games of it and I won most of them decisively; I'm also the #8 kog'maw in NA. The best test of a build is results not theory, and right now the build I present beats guinsoo's kog in every single way. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=bucket+steak

ZephyrDrakeAug 25, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=bucket steak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nKpIgZIj,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-08-25T14:48:34.731+0000)

I don't build it; I haven't done guinsoo's kog in weeks because it's nearly impossible to win with it (hence the 45% win rate on average for the build). My build is not horrible, my damage has jumped from about 16k per game to pretty consistently over 30k. The extra tankiness really helps with damage as you don't need to be as afraid of walking up, and nothing can one shot you in the late game. I've played over 10 games of it and I won most of them decisively; I'm also the #8 kog'maw in NA. The best test of a build is results not theory, and right now the build I present beats guinsoo's kog in every single way. http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=bucket+steak

you can show me whatever you want. I still see it as a terrible build

bucket steakAug 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

you can show me whatever you want. I still see it as a terrible build

Don't waste my time then LOL

ZephyrDrakeAug 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=bucket steak,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nKpIgZIj,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-08-26T01:23:12.310+0000)

Don't waste my time then LOL

you are the one wasting your own time by replying me to "hey look at this! I did more damage with this build on a champion tat is very dependent on team composition and teammates actually knowing that they need to peel for me!" it certainly isn't that you are getting better teamcomps or teammates that know what they are supposed to do, or just simply knowing when it's time to be aggressive or when it's time to step back. It's all about the build and nothing but the build

bucket steakAug 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

you are the one wasting your own time by replying me to "hey look at this! I did more damage with this build on a champion tat is very dependent on team composition and teammates actually knowing that they need to peel for me!" it certainly isn't that you are getting better teamcomps or teammates that know what they are supposed to do, or just simply knowing when it's time to be aggressive or when it's time to step back. It's all about the build and nothing but the build

You've already confirmed to me you're a dumbass troll, so be a good little boy and troll another post. Thank you.

ModKnightsKemplarAug 25, 20181 votes

Hmm.... have you tried weird kai'sa style builds with a nashor's thrown in to make better use of guinsoo's? I'm always tempted to do that when I get him in aram or something.

SukishooAug 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Hmm.... have you tried weird kai'sa style builds with a nashor's thrown in to make better use of guinsoo's? I'm always tempted to do that when I get him in aram or something.

Nashor's isn't even in her most used build anymore ( item 3095 item 3124 item 3006 item 3085 item 3031 item 3026 )

ModKnightsKemplarAug 25, 20181 votes

Yes, and that bothers me. Nashor's and Guinsoo's should have good synergy together. It's a design curiosity that you can get further with just AD with an item that has explicit AP scaling, and on a champ that has explicit AP scaling.

KatareenerAug 25, 20181 votes

I mean... the benefits of stacking AP on Kai'sa aren't exactly on par with the other threshold bonuses, and her passive encourages autoattacks, which AP doesn't apply to (even if you build Nashor's the on-hit only receives a fraction of your AP as bonus damage, whereas building flat AD gives the full benefit.)

She's strongest in the thick of the fight, and AP gives her... more poke on a fairly high-cd ability that isn't efficient to max before her other two INSANE abilities?

Items' synergy with each other is all well and good, but it's the items' synergy with the champion that will always win out in the end.

ModKnightsKemplarAug 25, 20181 votes

I agree with everything you said.

The point I'm trying (and perhaps failing) to make is that Kai'sa should have better rewards for building more AP. She, Varus, and Kog are the stand-out examples of adcs that have built some AP into their kits to great benefit in the past, and it's a shame to me that the optimal way to build them is still pure AD. It's something that I wish could be addressed in a healthy way, but I'm not sure Riot has figured that out quite yet.

SukishooAug 25, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yes, and that bothers me. Nashor's and Guinsoo's should have good synergy together. It's a design curiosity that you can get further with just AD with an item that has explicit AP scaling, and on a champ that has explicit AP scaling.

Yeah, I dunno. People were running her with heavy AP builds for awhile there. item 3020 item 3124 item 3115 item 3089 were some of the things I'd see the most, but something shifted somewhere to make them want AD again.

SleepingVictorsAug 25, 20181 votes

Question tho, how does Kai benefit from Storm though? It’s a real question not trying to be sarcastic. It’s my understanding that she works better with attack speed instead of straight up burst. Same goes with Vayne, like idk why people build storm on vayne, wouldn’t that be a waste of gold? (Again honest question) Is it just because every adc is heading for straight burst or?

KatareenerAug 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Question tho, how does Kai benefit from Storm though? It’s a real question not trying to be sarcastic. It’s my understanding that she works better with attack speed instead of straight up burst. Same goes with Vayne, like idk why people build storm on vayne, wouldn’t that be a waste of gold? (Again honest question) Is it just because every adc is heading for straight burst or?

Stealth and long-range teleports lend themselves well to the "assassin" archetype, which relies on burst.

SukishooAug 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Question tho, how does Kai benefit from Storm though? It’s a real question not trying to be sarcastic. It’s my understanding that she works better with attack speed instead of straight up burst. Same goes with Vayne, like idk why people build storm on vayne, wouldn’t that be a waste of gold? (Again honest question) Is it just because every adc is heading for straight burst or?

Storm gives attack speed just like most of the other items. I dunno much about Kai'sa as I haven't played her a lot still but for Vayne, Crit builds have always been strong on her.

For a long time they were one of the best builds on her, rush a item 3087 item 3031 and you had all the power. I personally prefer item 3006 item 3095 item 3072 item 3094 style build on her over item 3153 item 3124 item 3046 item 3026 that a lot of people use.

I kind of feel that way towards other ADCs like MissFortune where people try to use nothing but Lethality when Crit is still just as strong on her.

bucket steakAug 26, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Hmm.... have you tried weird kai'sa style builds with a nashor's thrown in to make better use of guinsoo's? I'm always tempted to do that when I get him in aram or something.

Yes, but I found that build to be ineffective. I have tried nearly everything imaginable with kog'maw: crit kog, crit guinsoos kog, lifesteal kog, hybrid kog, ap kog, guinsoos ap kog, nashor's guinsoos kog, trinity kog, trinity crit kog, trinity guinsoos kog, trinity nashor's guinsoos kog Of everything I experimented with, this build is the best, with the second best being sustain kog, and the third best being trinity kog.

(Note that this experimenting took place over several patches, with the most rigorous experimenting occuring after the ADC patch when guinsoos crit kog became no longer viable.)

Crimson ZeppelinAug 25, 20181 votes

Remember the good old days when you built triforce on kog and decimated your enemies with it? Good times.

bucket steakAug 26, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Crimson Zeppelin,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=nKpIgZIj,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-08-25T15:10:10.163+0000)

Remember the good old days when you built triforce on kog and decimated your enemies with it? Good times.

That build is still decent, of all the builds I have tried I rate it as the third best kog build; you can still carry with it, it's just less powerful than the build I outline in the OP.

SleepingVictorsAug 25, 20181 votes

Yeah agreed, I feel like Blade of the Ruined King offers a better first item though. I never have found out any runes useful with him, builds I’ve seen online say lethal, resolve secondary and Hail of blades, precision secondary.

bucket steakAug 26, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Yeah agreed, I feel like Blade of the Ruined King offers a better first item though. I never have found out any runes useful with him, builds I’ve seen online say lethal, resolve secondary and Hail of blades, precision secondary.

I feel like the resolve runes in general are pretty overrated. They require you to all in to really be effective, while domination allows you to be more passive to take advantage of the sustain (resolve is basically indirect, short term sustain). Not to mention the loss of ad is a huge trade off in the early game when it comes to farming.

If you're ahead then you should definitely get item 3153 first, but otherwise if it's a normal even game then rush item 1053 into item 3047