I feel like it's too hard for mages to go against full ad champs because there simply aren't any reliable items other than zhonyas that can provide any sort of resistance against those ridiculous damage dealers that gank you without you seeing and instakill you.
Riot should put in at least one other item which gives mages a slight escape or defense against ad + lethality etc. while still providing the power the AP reliant champs need.
MrFawknSunshine6 votes
is 65 armor , armor alone isnt enough you need HP to help survive. you can always take resolve secondary and get conditioning if you need more armor scaling into mid game +
but lets take LUX who gets 87 armor at lvl 18 if you throw in tabis and hourglass that is 152 armor.
the issue is you still want all your damage and to have defensive stats. cant have your cake and eat it too
Even9 votes
but lets take LUX who gets 87 armor at lvl 18 if you throw in tabis and hourglass that is 152 armor.
the issue is you still want all your damage and to have defensive stats. cant have your cake and eat it too
ad assassins dont even need more armor/mr than boots cuz they can just dodge everything with infinite mobility lul
remakoro17 votesTake ninja instead of sorcs and enjoy being useless. Nice advice. Meanwhile
is 75 MR.
But while is all tha mages can possibly get for armor while still losing a lot of dmg.
AD has 
which is 110 MR. Nice. Balanced AF.
Most flat Mpen you can get is 33+sudden impact but most mages cant even dream of being able to proc it. Plus 40% void. While AD has twice that. Which is even better considering that almost every melee has natural MR scaling.
the issue is you still want all your damage and to have defensive stats. cant have your cake and eat it too
The issue is that you can have all your dmg and have defensive stats if you are playing AD caster.
MrFawknSunshine5 votesyet most ad assassins are melee/short ranged, dont build HP ... arent really AOE
but mages are ranged, aoe damage, dps (some) cc, and has items with HP that still gives them AP
Drakath20022 votesyet most ad assassins are melee/short ranged, dont build HP ... arent really AOE
but mages are ranged, aoe damage, dps (some) cc, and has items with HP that still gives them AP
Look me in the eyes and say with a straight face that talon's rake and ult don't count as AOE, and flash news Tiamat exists and last I checked a lot of AD champions including Assassins go Ravenous hydra....
MrFawknSunshine3 votesi guess you didnt read the word MOST ...
its ok omitted by mistake right? to suit your argument?
ok 
has a small radius its not like its gonna hit someone standing in the back of a minion wave
Drakath20021 votesi guess you didnt read the word MOST ...
its ok omitted by mistake right? to suit your argument?
ok
Actually your right I did not see the word Most, sorry my bad
remakoro4 votesyet most ad assassins are melee/short ranged, dont build HP ... arent really AOE
All of them got tools for waveclear + capable of purchasing tiamat. While they are melee all of them got enough mobility for it to mean nothing if they want to go all in.
Also look at that... What might that be? 
HP ITEMS? And you can find them on every second assassin? wow? What else do we have here? fucking 
now gives BONUS AD so it works fine for most AD casters now!
but mages are ranged, aoe damage, dps (some) cc,
Also you are mixing shit up really badly. DPS mages are just as short ranged as your melee assassins.
can be called exception and he rightfully gets nerfed every other patch for it.
and has items with HP that still gives them AP
Among which only one can be universally purchased on every mage. Every other are situational or cant/should not be purchased on many mages. Also its hilarious to have HP items when every second assassin has missing health dmg. Thats totally gonna help XD
But yea they are aoe and ranged. So because of that they should be denied itemization options and assassins should be turned into bruisers?
MrFawknSunshine5 votes
hp item 
hp item 
hp item 
hp item 
hp item 
hp item 
hp item 
hp item 
hp item
you are right mages get no HP items ( i include the support ap items as well cuz they are mages too )
dps mage who isnt an assassin , 
dps /zone/poke mage 
range auto attacking dps mage
dps mage 
dps tank mage 
dps mage
other defensive mage items 
and mages if vs alot of AD or auto attackers can flat out BUY A ARMOR DEFENSIVE ITEM , hell any one can
sobi9998 votes don't wana build this against AD assassins and if you read its passive. Its for tanks that are AP and also because why riot reduced its passive aura so mages cannot buy it.
for Ap assassins not for mages.
for DOT users and the biggest abuser of it goes bot lane
useless on a lux that doesn't need its passive and so is on mages like xerath and ziggs. Still a niche item.
also niche item af and hardly ever build by mages. More suitably for support mages.
can be build on all mages but we go back to square 1 if the assassin with mobility is able to burst you first. You do realize that 
is not build and is kept by most players until 3-4th item. We don't really need the GW passive until enemy team buys lifesteal and that is usually not mid-late game.
As a lux user, or velkoz user, tell me which of the above you mentioned i can reliably purchase and still survive one rotation of spells of 
with 
?
Do note, i need 
and 
as early items. They are just absolutely necessary. Considering if i build the above HP items, i wouldn't be building anytime soon. How reliable would my damage be until mid game if i build these items over 
?
wildfox992 votesnice,i'm going to build a mage with ,new broken build discovered
MrFawknSunshine1 votesdont forget
FirewaterDM2 votes
you are right mages get no HP items ( i include the support ap items as well cuz they are mages too )
other defensive mage items
and mages if vs alot of AD or auto attackers can flat out BUY A ARMOR DEFENSIVE ITEM , hell any one can
Abyssal Mask - Only tank item, it got nerfed for actual mages using it too well, passive's too small radius to be good on them + was only used on like Ryze and Cass.
Haunting Guise - sure but Liandries is generally less common bcos it's generally bad vs. everyone but tanks/lots of HP targets tho buff is nice.
Protobelt - most mages don't/can't use it well and getting it would be counterproductive for a lot of people.
I don't count the supp. items because this is based on midlaners
ROA isn't bad but is very slow to scale so a lotta champs don't use it and while Rylai's is nice but since every mage needs Ludiens or Archangel's/Void Staff/Morello's/Sorc Shoes/Zhonya or Banshee's it's hard to fit it in at times.
Athenes is useless unless your AP mage has shields or heals, so Lux or Supports
Banshees' is actually marginally worse than zhonya's but that's more because the buildpath is ugly AND literally anything including luden's bounces eliminates the shield.
Stopwatch is 600 gold for 1 use or wait
Mercs or Tabis heavily nerf your damage
Seeker's sets you behind if you rush it bcos mana changes OR gets outscaled because literally depends on how fast you stack (you need 5-6 perfect waves to stack it most optimally).
Zhonya's would literally never be built if not for its passive because its stats are garbage. not to mention CDR means all relevant assassin Ults will be up faster + already are faster after Lv.11
Archangel's isn't bad but is slower scaling than RoA and the shield is pretty costly.
sobi9993 votesDont forget, doesn't have mana issues. Also last time i checked, this guy farms more with spamming his shurikens than AA. He starts his build with 
and 3 fkn pots. The then just builds into 
and that into . There you have it, he can reliably burst you without hitting all his abilities.
Meanwhile mages fkn desperately need regardless if they want to go . Not like the latter helps much. Will save you one ulti of zed, only to be ulted the next time whilst its on cd.
MrFawknSunshine1 votesand as a mage you can start with a 
or resolve tree and take boneplating /second wind to sustain some poke
vs hard ad lanes why not as a mage start cloth armor and pots then rush into seekers or ninja tabs
oh wait... thats not fun right ?
wildfox991 votesdont build HP
sobi9993 votesYou forgot the passives that are so damn annoying on and . They are anti-mage items thoroughly.
AirKingNeo1 votesWhat assassin can buy maw, mercscem, and merc boots?
Also, a lot of mages buy merc boots vs mages.
remakoro2 votesWhat assassin can buy maw, mercscem, and merc boots?
One troubled with CC and magic dmg i guess? Fucking mercs are basically a core in most cases. 
is extremely common purchase as well.
Also, a lot of mages buy merc boots vs mages.
is what 90% of people buy. Even on support mages.
share remaining 10% of purchases.
"A LOT OF MAGES"
Warlord Rhinark5 votesAdd 
this to the game.
There.
Diana hole2 votesI'd rather not have diana and the rest of ap assassins become op thank you
Kurt Hyzan1 votes
is supposed to be tanky, but there aren't any AP-reliant diver items in the entire game that gives sustain, meanwhile 
Diana hole1 votesThe problem is diana can one shot faster than most assassins and providing a cheap defensive item with great stats will make her op.
PaffWasTaken3 votesAssassin mains: hurr durr is op and should be nerfed! Ad champions are made useless against this item omg fml
Also assassin mains: Mages have enought base armor! We should geta bonus 30 base mr for compensation!
sobi9993 votesI still don't think people understand that flat HP is much better against burst (assassins) than flat armor, early game. Mages need a reliable defensive item with HP that also gives AP. The only items we currently have are . The former is niche item for mages like ryze, anivia and cassi and the latter is used mainly on AP assassins anyways.
Pika Fox1 votesIdk why they removed the cata from glp. I feel if they did chapter + cata it would be a good situational buy
MrFawknSunshine1 votesthats my point in a comment. armor alone isnt enough to survive.
but people dont wanna have to play defensively they dont find it fun and if anything is anti fun people dont want it.
people wanna build glass cannon full damage and not die , cant have your cake and eat it too.
most mages spells all out range the spells of assassins. most mages have a slow/snare /stun in their kit if not they have mobility. most of the ap items have hp, mana, or cdr with it. a mage isnt suppose to survive all in burst from a fed assassin,neither is an adc, or a squishy support.
people refuse to believe in certain match ups you have to be defensive and cant just go ham. some match ups favor others champs at a certain point.
Giga Baboon3 votesMages should've gotten 9 flat armor and 5 extra MR with the pre season update.
Instead we got nothing but some hp/lvl, because that matters when you die instantly to any assassin with electrocute at lvl 3
But hey meddler and ghostcrapper who don't play their own game knows best. Keep buffing jinx meddler, you'll crawl out of gold eventually.
Diana hole1 votesYou gotta really mess up if you die to an assassin at lvl 3 as a mage
Daddy Ants1 votes[{quoted}](name=Giga Baboon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n6RqBPYF,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-07-21T12:33:22.425+0000)
Mages should've gotten 9 flat armor and 5 extra MR with the pre season update.
Instead we got nothing but some hp/lvl, because that matters when you die instantly to any assassin with electrocute at lvl 3
But hey meddler and ghostcrapper who don't play their own game knows best. Keep buffing jinx meddler, you'll crawl out of gold eventually.
Jinx has as much HP level 1 as 
DragonShea1 votesJinx has as much HP level 1 as
No wonder ADC's have an advantage over melees in the early game.
Daddy Ants1 votesNo wonder ADC's have an advantage over melees in the early game.
As they are supposed to...
Ranged champions vs melee.
MrFawknSunshine1 votesyes she should have an advantage for range, not have range advantage and the same amount of HP
DragonShea1 votes[{quoted}](name=Giga Baboon,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n6RqBPYF,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2018-07-21T12:33:22.425+0000)
Mages should've gotten 9 flat armor and 5 extra MR with the pre season update.
Instead we got nothing but some hp/lvl, because that matters when you die instantly to any assassin with electrocute at lvl 3
But hey meddler and ghostcrapper who don't play their own game knows best. Keep buffing jinx meddler, you'll crawl out of gold eventually.
I am getting the impression that Meddler's wife cosplay as jinx. That, or he is loves the champ a little too much.
Seer of Mind3 votesThe problem is that mages won't build the item if it doesn't give AP. The only armor item viable for mages is , if we could give some armor too it'd be good. Itemization for mages is not very good right now because there's really one good item set that you go with.
Considering the fact of 
being very strong, tank mage items would be kind of scary now, making full AP 
very strong and a problem to take care of.
I'm not saying that I'm all the way against this, but currently there are a lot of big problems that need to be taken care of first before we get AP Tank items.
Nalisai2 votesI agree but I doubt anything like this will happen until they revamp armor and MR to actually be useful rather than slightly. I mean, you can build 78% MR and still get one shot by some AP champs too. The problem is damage versus defense ratios and the fact that Riot doesn't want the games to last that long.
All 4 one Malphite v Trundle anyone? :D
sobi9992 votesHmmm building just one MR item negates my whole combo as a LUX. Then i am useless for few seconds. Are you sure MR is that useless? I only play mages and have been doing so for years now.
Nalisai2 votesHmmm building just one MR item negates my whole combo as a LUX. Then i am useless for few seconds. Are you sure MR is that useless? I only play mages and have been doing so for years now.
You're assuming the only point of your combo is to do dmg. Don't forget the cc + slow + dmg boost you get if you aa between your q and e and aa again after...Sure might negate a good portion of the dmg early on, and reduce the cc, but even 1 sec stuck + 1 sec slow, plus the dmg boost twice is quite a bit, and most Tanks start with 325-350 Move speed and only get to build boots for speed. Odds are even if you don't kill them you'll hurt them enough to make them back.
Daddy Ants2 votes[{quoted}](name=Awesomo Almighty,realm=OCE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=n6RqBPYF,comment-id=,timestamp=2018-07-20T23:30:16.822+0000)
Riot should put in at least** one other item which gives mages a slight escape** or defense against ad + lethality etc.
Lol.
The whole point of a Mage is immobile burst damage dealers.
And no I'm not an Assassin or Lethality champion player.
Nyarlathοtep1 votesDouble standards. Adcs are supposed to be prone to burst. Yet they have access to the best anti burst items. 
, and if you are kaisa or varus,
Daddy Ants1 votesDouble standards. Adcs are supposed to be prone to burst. Yet they have access to the best anti burst items.
ADC = Sustained damage OVER TIME.
Mage = Upfront BURST DAMAGE.
Completely different.
GA is trash. Death's Dance is a fighter item. Mercurial is only bought for the QSS effect.
PurpleKingCrazy1 votesYes yes, Taliyah wants more armor so she can be the unstoppable tank champion and no one can stop her, not even Zed.
Ifneth1 votesTaliyah main here. Versus AD midlaners, here’s the strategy and build.
Spam your Q at Level 1 to push the wave and reach Level 2 first. Look for a little cheesey E poke.
Let the wave crash and bounce back, saving your spells except for keeping it outside your tower.
Farm. There’s nothing else to do now.
When a cannon wave is coming, let the wave crash against your turret and then push it back to your opponent’s turret with spells.
Recall and buy Doran’s Ring and as much Cloth Armor and as many Potions as you can afford. You need up-front Mana and Health sustain.
Repeat this process until, as a cannon wave approaches you’re low or will be low on Mana or Health. Recall and buy another Cloth Armor and more Potions.
Repeat again to finish Seeker’s Armguard.
After obtaining Seeker’s Armguard, you will need The Lost Chapter for its Mana, AP, and CDR. Then buy yourself a Stopwatch if you won’t receive one from Perfect Timing. Finish Luden’s Echo if you don’t use the Stopwatch. Finish Zhonya’s if you do.
Overall, this strategy and build use Taliyah’s waveclear to minimize interaction with the enemy laner while buying starting and defensive items as necessary provide her enough resistance and sustain to survive the early game. It costs 1,500 gold with Perfect Timing and no Potions, delaying her build but not by so much that her natural scaling won’t begin to surpass the AD laner by the mid-game.
PurpleKingCrazy1 votesYou know, I was trying to make a good joke here. You have good tips of playing Taliyah vs Ad Midlaners, I appreciate it. I was saying that if people give Taliyah more armor in the next patch I will be building tank like crazy and I wouldn't be even be building standard mage builds anymore, because she is not that way anymore. I just wouldn't put it under the table.
My usual tank set for mages involves and 
, two of my favorite items because of her movement speed and her spells being close-range. the rest is up to whatever team it happens to be and then I can stop them just by building tankier. No need for such AP items for her. If she gets more armor I am ibclined to build health with it and (some form of mana) and possibly warmogs.
Ifneth1 votesAbyssal Mask no longer works for mages with range. The aura isn’t long enough. DMP, however, is interesting, to be sure. It’s probably not optimal, though.
PurpleKingCrazy1 votesI know. Still will build it because of the MR it gives me. Otherwise I will go for RoA if there are no magic dmg champs on the enemy team.
Ifneth1 votesYour overall build sounds wrong. Taliyah wants to start Luden’s Echo, Sorcerer’s Shoes, and Morellonomicon. Then she wants to scale her damage with Liandry’s Torment and Void Staff, choosing Zhonya’s Hourglass to defend against comps with reliable backline access and Rylai’s Crystal Scepter to defend against ones without.
Taliyah isn’t a Rod-and-Tear battlemage who wants to wade into the fray and sling spells like Vladimir, Swain, or Cassiopeia do. She’s a roaming, kiting pick mage who wants to ride her rock and find chances to blow up squishies and burn down everything else.
Hence, she needs the 20% CDR from a Lost Chapter item, with Luden’s Echo being the best choice for its quick spike, extra waveclear and poke, and longer and wider reach due to the bolt travel distance. She also has huge base damage, which the flat Magic Penetration from Sorcerer’s Shoes and Morellonomicon helps get onto targets.
However, this build leaves her squishy, and since she does deal DPS, opting into battle mage items afterward delivers sustained damage and anti-burst survivability. Hence the choice of Liandry’s Torment. Her AP scalings are so low, however, that Deathcap is good only for snowballing, leaving Void Staff as her damage-amp item. This choice also synergizes with her high base damages.
Rylai’s Crystal Scepter continues the AP-Health-DPS approach, but it can be taken only against comps that lack reliable backline access. Against those comps, instead take Zhonya’s Hourglass for armor, CDR, and the active.
Try this build out, play around your squishy-ness, and look for repeated Q burns on the frontline and devastating W-E combos on the backline.
PurpleKingCrazy1 votesThank you for that advice, and yes it does sound wrong because it puts in a different way of thought when I play Taliyah in ARAM. I build what I want to essentially there if the matchup allows it.
But I gotta say one thing. The idea of building Rylai's even in Rift for Taliyah just sounds like it really doesn't do enough on her entire kit, and it just kites one person, whereas you can deal a lot of damage and maybe heal it back up with 
(which will probably be a 4th item now that I think about that) Of course Taliyah will still be quishy when you get a lot of AP items. I only consider 
if I consider their team to be extremely tanky as well. I'm a big fan of 
just because her cds are pretty low and she scales from Movement speed.
And yes, for assassins I lane against, I do consider getting as this item does provide a means to escape a combo if one is trying to use it on you. I would only consider if what I'm laning against is pretty brutal or their team is extremely tanky.
As for building a tank version of her (I do claim it does work sometimes) I would put in as she really does well with movement speed. You can build your mana item first for extra mana coverage, such as Luden's echo. I would also put in 
and 
if I were dominating the game and pushing hard. Other than that I do consider items like 
on hard-carry attack speed champs, and 
if there are teamfights happening all around.
But I just don't play rift a lot, I only go with the flow of ARAM and I love playing ARAM and not rift.
Häxel1 votesMeanwhile mages already bullied out adcs on bot. And you want to give the more armor for free so adc crybabys cry even more cuase more mages come viabel bot? yea, good idea to buff the current strongest class.
Rıots Bad Client1 votesno, not for free. hes just saying buff the items that have armor that mages can use. Either by trimming the damage down the utility or damage. Or even increasing the price.
