Nashor's Tooth and other On-HIt Procs that scale with AP

TakaDama··2 votes·1,737 views

Before I begin my rant, here's a comparison between AP AS and AD AS versions of Teemo and Fizz.

AP AS Teemo Compared to AD AS Teemo AP AS Teemo (no Masteries or Runes): 158 Physical Damage + 192 Magic Damage (including Nashor's Tooth and Toxic Shot initial on-hit proc) = 350 Mixed Damage to one target per second for 6800 Gold pre-mitigation AD AS Teemo: 287 to 718 (523 average) Physical Damage + 45 Magic Damage = 332 to 763 (568 average) Mixed Damage to one target per second for 7600 Gold pre-mitigation.

AP AS Fizz Compared to AD AS Fizz AP AS Fizz (no Masteries or Runes): 163 Physical Damage + 241 Magic Damage (including Nashor's Tooth and Seastone Trident active on-hit proc) = 404 Mixed Damage to one target per second for 6800 Gold pre-mitigation AD AS Fizz: 283 to 707 (517 average) Physical Damage + 50 Magic Damage = 333 to 757 (567 average) Mixed Damage to one target per second for 7600 Gold pre-mitigation.

Now, you may have noticed that AD AS beats AP AS in terms of expected and max damage and barely loses in terms of min damage. This makes sense: after all, the AP AS has a stronger burst than AD AS (at least for these champions), why give them better sustained damage too?

Despite this, however, AP AS builds suffer two critical flaws compared to AD AS builds: lack of impact from life-steal and spell-vamp, and lack of synergy with anti-tank items (Blade of the Ruined King, Liandry's Torment, Armor Penetration and Magic Penetration items).

First, on spell-vamp and life-steal: this should be fairly obvious, but life-steal does not scale at all with AP and spell-vamp rarely scales with AS.

In a similar vein, AP AS builds have an identity crisis when it comes to anti-tank items. Blade of the Ruined King is strictly better than Liandry's Torment in terms of tank-busting potential for AP AS builds, despite the latter providing AP; and Void Staff and Last Whisper only help one type of damage, which for AP AS builds does not help when Physical Damage is only slightly less than Magic Damage.

I feel the most effective solution that I can come up with for both of these issues would be to do the following:

  • [NEW Item] Twilight Razor (Recurve Bow + Needlessly Large Rod + 500 gold)

    • +40% Attack Speed, +80 Ability Power
    • Unique Passive - Dealing mixed damage to an enemy champion reduces their Armor and Magic Resist by 4% for 5 seconds. This effect stacks up to 5 times.
  • [REWORKED Mechanics] On-hit procs are considered Damage over Time spells for effects that trigger upon dealing spell damage such as Spell Vamp, Rylai's Scepter, and Liandry's Torment.

8 Comments

Blue Kaozi3 votes

What items are you assuming for the AD/AS build to have average damage between the min and the max? Unless its IE/PD thats not going to happen. Even TF Bork might only average around 350. As far as the new item goes, champs that build AP/AS dont really rely on armor pen to do damage. If anything you could just ask for old madred's razor for anti-tank options and call it a day. Another way to buff the build path would be to give them an item that gives sustain for on hit damage. (AP/AS lack sustain compared to AD-anything)

TakaDama1 votes

Yes, I'm using IE and PD against Cap and Tooth for the comparisons: BorK feels more like an anti-tank item as opposed to a core AD AS item, and TF is best on champs that utilize both Spell-blade and the variety of stats including AP, AD, and AS.

As far as your analysis on Twilight Razor, I agree that Armor Pen takes a backseat to Magic Pen for AP AS builds (especially after core items, when Magic Damage becomes more powerful than Physical Damage). Not sure how to rework the item itself to compensate for this though: I like how it works with the on-hit procs that AP AS enjoy, but now it seems to do too much (by which, I mean, some of its aspects are irrelevant).

67chrome1 votes

Yes, I'm using IE and PD against Cap and Tooth for the comparisons:

that's not a good comparison then.

IE PD offer essentially nothing outside of auto-attack damage, where Rabadon's offers ~350 QWER damage.

IE + PD also sets up a champion for a weak early game and fairly weak mid-game, especially if auto-attacks are the only place they get their damage from. Once you get both, you should get a power spike over champions that went for more useful things early/mid game.

It's also worth nothing abilities often have better QoL things than auto-attacks, allowing otherwise weak champions on Paper (like Sona), to do a considerable amount of damage in practice - to the point she can easily prevent an AA reliant champion from ever getting a kill.

It's also worth pointing out hybrid damage items are usually really strong as a first major purchase. There's a reason ADCs like Ezreal and Corki go for that one.


As for these:

Despite this, however, AP AS builds suffer two critical flaws compared to AD AS builds: lack of impact from life-steal and spell-vamp, and lack of synergy with anti-tank items (Blade of the Ruined King, Liandry's Torment, Armor Penetration and Magic Penetration items).

Hybrid damage is anti-tank by default.

As a tank, you want to itemize against your lane opponent, and then itemize against the enemy team.

Ideal situation would be Physical auto-attacker for armor items item 3143 item 3082 item 3075 item 3047 (or melee physical auto-attacks), or magical abilities geared towards QWER burst item 3102 , poke item 3065 item 3112 , AoE item 3190 , or heavy CC item 3111 item 3140 for magic resistance.

You might notice there aren't any anti mixed damage items there. item 3026 is the only item with both armor and MR, and it's quite expensive if you're using it for that combination rather than the passive.


Also - HP is really solid against most magic-damage, as having enough HP to survive a QWER burst is all you really need against QWER burst-casters. Doesn't really matter if it's living with 5% or 40%: you have a solid ~6 seconds to punish a burst caster if you survive the burst, and if you have enough sustain/HP to survive that ~Q, they're in a really bad spot.

HP vs. sustained auto-attacks isn't nearly as useful. Surviving with 5% HP means you're just 1 AA away from being killed, you're just delaying the inevetable.


Furthermore - for comparing on-hit to physical, it's also worth pointing out MR is roughly 35% lower than armor throughout most of the game, from bases to itemization. Essentially Having Last Whisper for free for the entire game is a significant advantage to consider, you shouldn't just look at end-game bonuses where Whisper and additional armor pen can eventually overtake that.


But anyways - running someone reliant on IE + PD, or just heavily reliant on auto-attacks, into a lane opponent that builds item 3075 , is complete cancer. They pretty much win lanning automatically, as they can almost AFK kill you.

Mixed damage is a substantial advantage if you want to go solo top-lane into a bruiser, otherwise AA's are really, really, really easy to shut down with counter-picks/itemization.



So - anti-tank itemization? Not an issue for AP/AS builds. You have a significant edge for most of the game, and you never have to worry about getting screwed over by your team-comp being a singular damage type. You'll always output ok damage.

No life steal/spell vamp sucks for on-hit builds though. Kingblade used to offer sustain from the %HP part exclusively, but that just made the item feel like it was only for on-hit champions.

TakaDama1 votes

{quoted}

that's not a good comparison then.

IE PD offer essentially nothing outside of auto-attack damage, where Rabadon's offers ~350 QWER damage.

IE + PD also sets up a champion for a weak early game and fairly weak mid-game, especially if auto-attacks are the only place they get their damage from. Once you get both, you should get a power spike over champions that went for more useful things early/mid game.

It's also worth nothing abilities often have better QoL things than auto-attacks, allowing otherwise weak champions on Paper (like Sona), to do a considerable amount of damage in practice - to the point she can easily prevent an AA reliant champion from ever getting a kill.

It's also worth pointing out hybrid damage items are usually really strong as a first major purchase. There's a reason ADCs like Ezreal and Corki go for that one.

All true, though I should say that if we only considered abilities, then AS would be a non-factor for both AP and AD champs. Anyhow, let me take a look at the DPS numbers for IE+TF Teemo and IE+TF Fizz real quick . . .

IE+TF Teemo 306 to 766 (444 average) Physical Damage + 48 Magic Damage = 354 to 814 (492 average) Mixed Damage to one target per second for 8503 Gold pre-mitigation.

IE+TF Fizz 299 to 747 (434 average) Physical Damage + 57 Magic Damage = 356 to 804 (491 average) Mixed Damage to one target per second for 8503 Gold pre-mitigation.

So, for a lower expected/average DPS, using Trinity Force over Infinity Edge grants both a higher min DPS and a higher max DPS. Compared to the AP AS numbers from before, IE+TF builds on these two are still more effective with their auto-attacks, though the expected DPS is closer to that of Cap+Tooth builds.

{quoted} As for these:

Hybrid damage is anti-tank by default.

As a tank, you want to itemize against your lane opponent, and then itemize against the enemy team.

Ideal situation would be Physical auto-attacker for armor items item 3143 item 3082 item 3075 item 3047 (or melee physical auto-attacks), or magical abilities geared towards QWER burst item 3102 , poke item 3065 item 3112 , AoE item 3190 , or heavy CC item 3111 item 3140 for magic resistance.

You might notice there aren't any anti mixed damage items there. item 3026 is the only item with both armor and MR, and it's quite expensive if you're using it for that combination rather than the passive.

This makes sense, actually.

{quoted} Also - HP is really solid against most magic-damage, as having enough HP to survive a QWER burst is all you really need against QWER burst-casters. Doesn't really matter if it's living with 5% or 40%: you have a solid ~6 seconds to punish a burst caster if you survive the burst, and if you have enough sustain/HP to survive that ~Q, they're in a really bad spot.

HP vs. sustained auto-attacks isn't nearly as useful. Surviving with 5% HP means you're just 1 AA away from being killed, you're just delaying the inevetable.

This also makes sense, and I think I get the mixed damage basic attacks now: sustained mixed damage followed by a burst of one damage type enables champions like Teemo and Fizz to battle both Armor/MR stacking and Health stacking without having to build tanky items.

Still want to see Liandry's Torment proc on on-hit effects just in case mixed damage doesn't get there, but this is actually pretty sweet.

{quoted} Furthermore - for comparing on-hit to physical, it's also worth pointing out MR is roughly 35% lower than armor throughout most of the game, from bases to itemization. Essentially Having Last Whisper for free for the entire game is a significant advantage to consider, you shouldn't just look at end-game bonuses where Whisper and additional armor pen can eventually overtake that.

True: I had neglected to factor in post-mitigation because I'm not sure who would be a suitable "test dummy" for these two champions in terms of their natural Armor and MR.

{quoted} But anyways - running someone reliant on IE + PD, or just heavily reliant on auto-attacks, into a lane opponent that builds item 3075 , is complete cancer. They pretty much win lanning automatically, as they can almost AFK kill you.

Mixed damage is a substantial advantage if you want to go solo top-lane into a bruiser, otherwise AA's are really, really, really easy to shut down with counter-picks/itemization.

Very true: my friend likes to troll top-lane Tryndamere and Master Yi with top-lane Rammus, so I know how much reciprocating auto-attacks can hurt.

{quoted} So - anti-tank itemization? Not an issue for AP/AS builds. You have a significant edge for most of the game, and you never have to worry about getting screwed over by your team-comp being a singular damage type. You'll always output ok damage.

No life steal/spell vamp sucks for on-hit builds though. Kingblade used to offer sustain from the %HP part exclusively, but that just made the item feel like it was only for on-hit champions.

Indeed.

Hasztalan21 votes

Problem is if you give them the similar tools they'll end up affecting and working in the very same way as AD and then we have the question as why not just make them AD and yolo?

The best part about AP/AS is exactly taht it functions in a different way. I'm not saying losing the crit booster, % dmg and lifesteal makes up for the AP item's utility (generally CDR and other pretty good stuff tho like zhonya) but it's certainly different and that's what matters imo.

TakaDama1 votes

I agree that AP AS should feel different from both AP Nuke and AD AS in terms of gameplay. However, in the game's current state, AP AS has weaker burst damage than AP Nuke, weaker sustained damage than AD AS, and in general fails to make the most of utility items also available to AP Nuke and AD AS (for example, you can't attack while using Zhonya's Hourglass, which benefits AP Nuke moreso than AP AS).

The identity I believe AP AS should have is a hybrid between burst and sustained damage: whittling away at the enemy's health with sustained damage before bursting them down. As it the game is currently, though, going this sustained+burst route does not seem as effective as either going AP Nuke or AD AS, even for champions that would benefit the most from AP AS builds.

Sire Hippington1 votes

i totally agree on triggering on-spell effeckts on on-hit effeckts. Magic on hit builts are rarly seen, and on-spell items are also not very popular. Both would get a small buff by that change that dwfinitly wouldn't brake them, but help alot. not a fan of twighlight razor though. Hybrid pen is a very dangerous thing, and shred is even more problematic.

TakaDama1 votes

Thanks. And yeah: definitely need to figure an alternative to the hybrid shred (on one extreme it shreds a lot when it shreds, but on the other, it requires mixed damage to shred anything at all) . . . maybe something like the following?

  • [NEW Item] Twilight Razor (Hextech Revolver + Dagger + Dagger + 400 gold) [note: not relevant to the main change I'm suggesting, but just a general change]
  • +40% Attack Speed, +50 Ability Power, +15% Spell Vamp [note: ditto]
  • Unique Passive: Basic attacks against an enemy champion increases your Armor Penetration and Magic Penetration against them by 4% for 5 seconds. This effect stacks up to 5 times.

Key to this change is the switch from hybrid shred (which is just ridiculous in team fights) to one-on-one hybrid penetration (which fits well with the idea of sustained damage into mini-burst) and ignoring true hybrid penetration (which is, again, just ridiculous in team fights).

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