Upvote if you just don't like Lee Sin and his immunity to nerfs

Death and Doom·Dec 1, 2016·637 votes·17,080 views

title says it all.

EDIT: to those in comments who say he isnt op: 37% play rate and still rated 8th best jungle.

http://champion.gg/champion/LeeSin

176 Comments

KlavierDec 1, 201647 votes

I've been playing since season 2, LeeSin has never been nerfed too hard, Vayne too.

BALDG1VEN BOOMERDec 1, 201662 votes

Woah careful there man or else they might remove 3 AD.

Wolfram OxfordDec 2, 20162 votes

Patch comments from Riot after 3 AD nerf on Lee :

Lee has been performing a little too good. We decided to hit him pretty hard by reducing his base attack damage by 3. This will make it harder for him to clear and his ganks less potent, leaving the enemy team a lesser feeling of oppression. You're welcome.

JDB8eoX8x0Dec 1, 201619 votes

I always laugh when somebody tries to behead me about "Lee Sin being a balanced skillchamp.".

I played him myself, I know where I'm coming from when I tell you that being a lazy shitstain that engages W R Q E doesn't equal being skilled or balanced. Lee Sin is a mechanical mess that just for a brief moment before actually kicking you, CC's you hard so that you can't actually flash out of his kick. It's a mere 0,25 seconds or something, but basically you can't fight back against Lee Sin or react in that period of time where you could have panic flashed away from him.

Neither is he 'balanced'. He's a high playrate, high-reward low-effort Jungler who can gank you at any point of the game. His ultimate merely makes him even stronger at ganking.

If you think hitting his skillshot is hard or jumping to a ward behind and enemy and kicking them into your team is hard, then you probably never played Lee Sin before or only once in your life. Learning how to play Lee Sin takes not more than one or two games where you will first figure out how he jungles properly and then figure out how he ganks most efficiently. Considering that he's the type of champion who can towerdive you even at Lvl.3 already when the situation is good, I think balanced is a funny word that doesn't suit Lee Sin at all.

A good 'nerf', if you can even call it a nerf would be if Riot finally sorted Lee Sin's horrible coding out. Unlike other champions, his CC ult will CC you before he even used it which is simply put unfair because it takes away the possibility to react many times.

LeetriDec 1, 201610 votes

If Lee Sin requires no skill and was that fast to learn, explain how people with 1-5 games played have a 39% winrate with him? It takes 15-50 games before you even reach the 50% winrate bar.

rtbf76109271Dec 1, 20161 votes

Oh my god he must be so hard if only 39% of people win their first game on him

15 games is like 2-3 days worth of playing. What kind of logic is this

LeetriDec 1, 20163 votes

Shyvana wins 53% of her games the instant you start playing her, someone who literally just started playing Shyvana wins more games than someone who has 50 games played as Lee Sin. 39% is really low for a supposedly freelo champion, most good champions have around 45-55% winrate at 1-5 games played. The only champions who have a lower starting win rate are champions like Azir and Nunu.

AlmightyDec 1, 201613 votes

"But he takes skill" isn't even an excuse anymore.

Azir and Kalista are two of the most skill-demanding champions in the game, and that didn't stop them from being gutted.

Almighty.

TotalJerkDec 1, 201611 votes

Lee Sin has been nerfed ten times since release.

Edit: Okay, we're downvoting facts, now?

BeatzBoyFTWDec 1, 201638 votes

And he has been purely buffed for two seasons excluding bugfixes.

Patch 5.16

E - Per-hit energy gain changed to 20 on first and 10 on second from 15 on both Ult - NEW EFFECT: Enemies hit by the target take (+ 12 / 15 / 18% of kicked target's bonus health) bonus physical damage

Patch 6.14

W - Shield increased to 40 / 100 / 160 / 220 / 280 from 40 / 80 / 120 / 160 / 200

Patch 6.18

W - Sustain values increased to 10 / 15 / 20 / 25 / 30% from 5 / 10 / 15 / 20 / 25%.

I swear to God that last buff has absolutely nothing to do with balance, and it was done because Riot QQ that Lee Sin wasn't seen much in Worlds. Like yea, name a time where Sejuani & Sion ever get their Worlds appearance at least once or twice so by that logic, they should be buffed too.

EDIT: Your comment is no longer facts when you have nothing left to say about this.

SlythionDec 1, 20169 votes

What are you talking about, "immunity to nerfs" lol. He's in a pretty decent spot to be honest, let the champion see the light of day for more than a week before being put back into the "only pros can play him and find a slight bit of success" category for another season

Edit: and he has a 49.8% win ratio ya dolt. You shouldn't ignore that fact and pull out the "8th best jungler" card (as if that's incredibly significant) http://champion.gg/champion/LeeSin

Edit: Read the entire comment chain before blindly downvoting people, there is more concrete evidence literally 2 comments down

G4LLOWSC4L1BR4TRDec 1, 201636 votes

He has a winrate just barely under 50% with a 37% pickrate. That any champion can perform at almost 50% WR with such high pick rate is usually a sign of poor balance. And for the record, I'm a Janna main who loves seeing lee in the meta because I can destroy him (won 5 of my last 5 games against him), so this isn't just me being salty.

SlythionDec 1, 201616 votes

Yes but with a little more digging you'll notice that players don't actually achieve a win rate above 50% until nearly around 40ish games played which is actually a pretty large amount of practice needed to just reach 50%.

And it's also important to note that after that point, the win ratio remains at a consistent 52%ish win ratio even for players with 125+ games played as him. If a champion was really overpowered, I would imagine that not only should fairly new players would be able to find success with him, but experienced players should have more than a measly 52%. That's actually significantly lower than a lot of champions when looking at players with 125+ games played on them.

Avios1Dec 1, 20162 votes

[deleted]

SlythionDec 1, 20163 votes

you can't use a theoretical "I should be able to" statement to counteract my hard evidence backed up by facts

you stated your own personal feelings on Lee while I showed data from thousands of games in higher elos

ProzzakDec 2, 20163 votes

What does that winrate matter? Winrate of people who have played 125+ games isn't even 53%. I don't think it is a big deal the only reason people are complaining is likely because they see him played so much.

TyroneWatermelonDec 1, 20168 votes

Not only Lee sin,but these too; Yasuo Vayne Jinx Lux Graves Janna

LaterToTheRaceDec 1, 20168 votes

I would say that Janna is just a utility.... beast of burden or something appropriate. She's strong simply due to the team aspect of her gameplay similarly to Aurelion. Jinx recently received a nerf if I do recall. Yasuo is at a sub par winrate, but he's just toxic. So he doesn't need nerfs as he needs reworked passive/ult. Lux is lackluster, and easy to destroy. The only reason she can be toxic is due to her spammable ult. (Which imo needs a longer CD if you just use it to farm. To punish those cheeky enough to abuse the CD.) Graves and Vayne are pretty much the only two on here that seem to keep dodging the punishment and remaining viable and rather annoying.

R18Dec 1, 20163 votes

I only understand Vayne and Janna

Yasuo While I despise him from a design standpoint, he's balanced currently Jinx She's one of the weaker ADC's Lux How is lux OP? She's sooooo weak Graves Got nerfed to the ground

bbQsauçeDec 1, 20168 votes

[deleted]

RozzetaDec 1, 201614 votes

Yes. Thresh is an abomination designed specifically to bypass the weak points of supports while still highlighting their strenghts. Typical CertainlyT design.

EDIT: And God have mercy if he was still in release status.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 1, 201635 votes

I would love to see Thresh nerfed honestly. But I'm a bit biased. I just hate how he can save his ADC a la Tahm Kench yet he can set up free kills a la Blitzcrank. To top it all off he has Sona level poke on his E passive and a Nasus wither on his R. He's not OP but he's the jack of all trades bot lane and there's rarely a reason to pick someone over him other than the fact that he honestly isn't fun to play for me personally.

R18Dec 1, 201618 votes

As a Sona main, I hate playing against him but play him as well. While he has a stupidly high playrate (25%), he has a relatively low winrate. (48%) In that sense, he seems balanced. The problem people have with him is the pure impact difference between a good and bad Thresh. The reason I don't THINK he needs nerfs is because they will be nerving CotC and likely Redemption as well. (FYI Redemption is the BEST item on Thresh, and on most supports statistically)

Spaceman5pffDec 1, 20162 votes

You compare him to all of these champions, but he simply does their jobs WORSE than them.

Thresh leaves more reaction time to him hook than Blitz, it also doesn't pull them as close.

Thresh can poke with E passive but the charge takes a while, and he can't attack anything if he wants to charge it.

Thresh has a powerful slow on his R, but it is not as long as Wither, and it lacks the Attack Speed Slow component, it also requires the enemy to walk into a wall.

Also, keep in mind, his base armor is actually trash tier, and he stays garbage in the armor department until he picks up souls / buys armor. Thresh is pretty vulnerable in the very early game, and when his hook is down, you can punish him for trying to harass if he walks forward.

Supreme Senpai69Dec 2, 20162 votes

All I said is that while balanced, he's the jack of all trades yet master of none. Of course he does their jobs worse than them, but the fact that he does their jobs is pretty frustrating. He's the Lee Sin of bot lane if you want to put it that way. He can give his ADC a shield with his W in addition to flat out saving them, such that if they misposition it doesn't even matter. I'd argue he does this BETTER than Tahm Kench because he doesn't risk his own safety in order to do it and it can be done from range and through walls. In addition to saving them, he can bring an ally that's far away into the fray. His E passive charge does take awhile but it's on his passive. It also has its own active which is a knockback or a pull.

It's just like, I don't like him existing. I feel bad for not picking him every game because he just offers everything a team would ever possibly want aside from healing, which he can now do thanks to redemption. I feel bad going against him because a good Thresh is a nightmare. And while he's vulnerable while his Q is down, as MMR increases the amount of hooks thrown decreases. A Thresh who always has his Q up is a dangerous Thresh and unlike Blitz he doesn't really even need his Q. If you get cocky because he doesn't have it, well, you're gonna be E'd forward and R'd while his ADC kills you.

Again, I'm not saying he isn't balanced or deserves nerfs. It's not an issue of numbers, his numbers are totally fine. It's just how much his kit offers. It's staggering. His playrate is a testament to that and while I don't want to waste a ban on him, if I don't he'll be in like 30% of my games. He is a very solid choice to ban because a ban isn't effective if you ban a champion they don't want to play.

RisenDarkKnightDec 1, 201611 votes

WTF are you talking about? He has 11% less playrate than Lee. So he only has about 2/3 the playrate. That's not close, that's off by many millions of plays (assuming the popularity difference holds true in elos bellow plat). Sure Thresh is also absurdly popular, but the margin of difference is about equal to the popularity of Riven...

26% =/= 37%!!!

serenity7Dec 1, 20168 votes

Would removing Lee's ability to ward hop(like they did with Katarina) make him more fair? As in, so many Lee players miss their Q when they gank, but then just put a ward down and jump to it, then red buff slow you and he can kill you anyway.

rtbf76109271Dec 1, 20166 votes

Yup whenever they redesign something since it's bad for the game, lee sin has it

ekko %missing hp was too high when he built tanky, they lowered the base to 3% and gave ap ratio. Lee has 8% katarina had ward shunpo, removed it, lee still has ward hop yorick had too many point and clicks, made him have skillshots. Lee's ult is 200% bonus ad point and click

JorenciceDec 2, 20161 votes

Wukong has like a 480% bonus AD 5 person aoe stun ult...

DivewingDec 2, 20162 votes

That could potentially be a 0 damage no person Ult. Lees hits every time he presses the button, that kind of reliability doesn't deserve that kind of damage

TrevorLikesMyUwUDec 1, 20162 votes

I understand that would be frustrating but removing a ward hop wouldn't just lower his winrate it would tank it. Almost all of his complicated combos rely on it. He would have to have flash up to even be useful in some games which wouldn't be a smart move on riots part but I agree they need to fine tune him a little.

GigglesODec 1, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=B5G Trash,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mGOiYaE1,comment-id=00150001,timestamp=2016-12-01T22:13:29.601+0000)

I understand that would be frustrating but removing a ward hop wouldn't just lower his winrate it would tank it. Almost all of his complicated combos rely on it. He would have to have flash up to even be useful in some games which wouldn't be a smart move on riots part but I agree they need to fine tune him a little.

Lynch lee like they lynched Morde, force lee to have an ally to hop to.

Gregor GysiDec 1, 20167 votes

[{quoted}](name=Death and Doom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mGOiYaE1,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-12-01T02:36:37.376+0000)

EDIT: to those in comments who say he isnt op: 37% play rate and still rated 8th best jungle.

You do realize that op.gg factors that in, don't you? If he had a lower play rate he would also have a worse overall ranking..

Look at this from this way, the average Lee Sin player has the 5th most experience of all junglers and yet only the 21th (of 49) highest winrate. Additionally, the most experienced Lee Sin players(125+ games) have only a 52% winrate. The least experienced Lee Sin players have an outstandingly low winrate of 39%. Lee Sin is overplayed that's it.

SkiasDec 1, 201611 votes

[{quoted}](name=404 shitlord,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=mGOiYaE1,comment-id=000a,timestamp=2016-12-01T11:34:12.154+0000)

You do realize that op.gg factors that in, don't you? If he had a lower play rate he would also have a worse overall ranking..

Look at this from this way, the average Lee Sin player has the 5th most experience of all junglers and yet only the 21th (of 49) highest winrate. Additionally, the most experienced Lee Sin players(125+ games) have only a 52% winrate. The least experienced Lee Sin players have an outstandingly low winrate of 39%. Lee Sin is overplayed that's it.

That makes no sense. In theory, if he were being played more, a large percentage would be new/unskilled players. A "high skill cap" (lol) champ like Lee should require a good amount of games to win. That has been his justification for his overloaded kit and high ratios.

We aren't seeing that. We are seeing a champ that is so strong, players can just Q R Q and instantly kill someone.

Gregor GysiDec 1, 20164 votes

{quoted}

That makes no sense. In theory, if he were being played more, a large percentage would be new/unskilled players.

But it's factually wrong. Champion.gg has the statistics, barely 9% are new to Lee Sin. Compare that to Shyvana with 26% beginners and a 57% winrate in total. Lee Sin players are in average amongst the 5 most experienced junglers and Lee Sin still has a negative winrate.

A "high skill cap" (lol) champ like Lee should require a good amount of games to win.

And exactly that is the case! Beginners have a 39% winrate so Lee is exactly how he is supposed to be. Not even those who are really experienced have a good winrate (52% max) so I don't really see the problem.

We aren't seeing that. We are seeing a champ that is so strong, players can just Q R Q and instantly kill someone.

Oh c'mon. OP linked op.gg, i linked op.gg again, what you are saying is a popular meme on boards but it's factually wrong. Players get into the game, expecting to stomp and they lose 61% of their games while feeding their ass off.

CuII The MeekDec 1, 20164 votes

Hit them with facts.... im by no means a super intelligent game balnce master, I suck at the game. BUT even so this arguement makes me want to die, people are biased and not looking at the actual facts that pertain to his balance and the "anyone can play him and have a huge winrate" falseness that everyone is spewing.

18 NAKED COWB0YSDec 1, 20165 votes

downvote if you have a brain and realize riots inability to balance the level 3 cheese has nothing to do with lee who has been fine before and after the changes but is now greatly affected by the retardation of the balance team that worked on the jungle.

SaiannaDec 1, 201619 votes

ok, downvoted (you) :)

It's not just that his cheesy 3lvl gank.

It's him in general players "dislike" <-- very soft word.

18 NAKED COWB0YSDec 1, 20163 votes

because they cant play him for themselves so they bitch about good lee sins doing what their champ does best.

SaiannaDec 1, 20168 votes

I can't play Lee for shit. I'm honest here.

Yet even with my sucky playyzzzz as lee i still get cheap kills on squishies just cause of how retarded-strong his Q-R-Q combo is.

If I suck with champion, I shouldn't be able to get free kill whenever I kamikazee (not even 1v1, but 1v3!!!). That's the definition of a broken champion. Zed/Rengar/Kha are the same. No matter how bad player is, if he manages to get 1 kill in 1v3 scenario while sucking with said champion, then something is obviously wrong.

Second thing is: lee has 7 abilities and AS steroid passive. Why 7 and not 4, like the rest? Because each of his abilities aren't "2 weak ones formed into 1", but "2 quite powerfull abilities under the same button".

Third. he's the most cheeky yet cowardy champion you can get your hands on.

He initiates whenever HE wants and if shit goes the wrong way, then "press R to disengage". On top of that his R CD is a joke. Look at Tristanas CD. I know those are 2 different yet similar abilities, but for fucks sake, I bet you'd join angry mob on those boards if lategame Tristana could R anyone every 30s

Black PöwerDec 1, 20166 votes

Coming from someone who's only just starting to pick lee up again after a year of not playing him, I strongly support this statement. You're not even needed to build full damage to be useful and you'll be tanky enough to dive into the enemy frontline and make a pick on one of their squishies if your team is reactive enough.

xasnlyDec 1, 20164 votes

played against a lee that was an undying unstopable lifesteal machine, plus y does he have a passive for auto attacking? makes it hard to understand that he is a caster not someone that uses autos. you think hes gonna auto but he flashes under you're turret, drops a ward, ults you out of the turret, jumps to the ward, then qs to you and proceeds to crush you're dreams with "pure challenger tier skill" best play evree time [zombie-brand-mindblown]

HelmightDec 1, 20162 votes

Lee Sin isn't immune to nerfs. The problems facing the champion are structural, not just numbers. When you have a kit that does everything, you either are a total god who dominates their respective role, or are too weak to do anything. Riot can't band-aid fix Lee Sin because of this. He flat-out needs a rework before he can get to a spot where he has actual strengths and weaknesses.

ElewdDec 1, 20167 votes

and they tried to do a rework and there was such public outcry riot apologized for even thinking of changing lee sin.

HelmightDec 1, 20162 votes

It was hardly a rework - more of a "we have some spare time, so let's take a look at Lee Sin" rework, if anything. When I say rework, I'm talking on the scale of a roster update rework a la Katarina or Talon. Like I said above, Riot can band-aid fix Lee Sin with a few PBE changes. They need to take him into the lab and really take a hard look at what Lee Sin is all about before they can fix his problems.

UnderscorBunniesDec 1, 20162 votes

I don't understand it, a champion with a high playrate, that a large portion of the playerbase consider fun to play, is hovering a little above a 50% winrate. Not only that, the champion itself has clearly defined weaknesses and counterplay.

To me that looks like a huge success balance wise...

EDIT: Under. He's under a 50% winrate apparently.

rtbf76109271Dec 1, 20165 votes

I agree he is fun to play

Double kills at 2:35 bot lane is fun 2 gap closers is fun Strongest invades in the game is fun Playmaking with game changing ult is fun Building tanky but doing tons of damage with 8% missing hp and 200% bonus ad on abilities is fun

-lee sin has more gap closers at lv3 than most assassins do at lv6 -has higher %missing hp damage than most assassins do (shaco scales 3% - 8% while lee is always 8% for example, ekko is 3% then requires ap) -has the single highest bonus AD ratio on an ability in the game, on a point and click which kills the enemy even without the damage if it's in the right direction -best objective smite war steals in the game (see the objective with q, dash in with 8% missing hp damage plus smite, w out of pit. like wtf some junglers would need to flash twice just to get in and out)

He does assassin level damage, without this whole "mark them wait 2s pop mark" bullshit, with more gap closers, while building tankier

UnderscorBunniesDec 1, 20162 votes

Bot lane at 2:30 is a problem with the current jungle, not lee sin. There are plenty of champions with two gapclosers. Riven at level 2, Talon Pre 6, Zed Post 6, LeBlanc post 6, Fiora's Q on a 2s cd, etc. I don't know a whole ton about junglers and such, but isn't Nidalee the counter jungling queen? I agree, being able to make plays does indeed sound fun. There are plenty of tanks with percent max health damage, may not be percent MISSING health, but they have ways to deal tons of damage as well.

Your first bullet point is relatively false, since a good number of assassins have multiple gapclosers in their kit, with there being a few exceptions in champions like Shaco, who can go invisible, and Rengar, who can camoflauge as well as having a pseudo gapcloser on his Q.

There's a reason assassins don't have a ton of execution damage, if they did, what's to stop them from say, building trinity force into tank items despite them meant to be played as an AP assassin? Ekko

Yep, his kick scales really well with AD. If you build full AD though you end up having the same issue that most divers have if they go glass cannon. That's not to say that his kick does a shitload of damage, because it does, but it's not like you can't do anything about it, it should theoretically take him a bit of time to dash twice to the enemy AD and kick them into their team no? If you and your team just sit there while that happens, that's not Lee being OP, that's no one respecting something everyone knows Lee Sin can do.

Best objective smite stealing potential? What? Nunu Chogath Jhin Elise also kinda fits here, though she has the same smitestealing ability as lee.

If Lee was really as OP as you make him out to be, how come he's struggling to maintain a 50% winrate, much less a 53% winrate or higher like some other champions. Are they just more busted than he is?

rtbf76109271Dec 1, 20167 votes

Bot lane at 2:30 is a problem with the current jungle, not lee sin.

Lee sin exacerbates the problem due to having 2 gap closers and a slow at lv3. He abuses it the worst by far since his lv3 ganks were already very strong

There are plenty of champions with two gapclosers. Riven at level 2, Talon Pre 6, Zed Post 6, LeBlanc post 6, Fiora's Q on a 2s cd, etc.

If you gap close with riven q at lv2, you lose all your damage. Champions with gap closers on their ult dont gank at lv3 very well. Fioras Q is on a 2 sec cooldown only at max rank PLUS you have to hit someone with it, which means you already had to be pretty close.

I don't know a whole ton about junglers and such, but isn't Nidalee the counter jungling queen?

Maybe last season before her nerfs and when the JG suited ap/mana whore champions better. Right now she has one of the lowest (if not THE lowest) jg win rate

There are plenty of tanks with percent max health damage, may not be percent MISSING health, but they have ways to deal tons of damage as well.

and they almost guaranteed do not have mobility too, or else they are totally overloaded and get reworked like ekko. Bruiser Fizz was nerfed in the same way (needs ap for higher missing hp), and now his missing hp is totally gone. Yet lee still has flat 8%. To put this in perspective, SHACO THE PURE ASSASSIN has 3% to 8% scaling missing hp on his e. At lv3 gank lee sin will have twice his missing hp damage.

Your first bullet point is relatively false, since a good number of assassins have multiple gapclosers in their kit

Yes multiple assassins have 2 gap closers, AT LEVEL SIX. The only assassin which will have 2 at lv3 is fizz, who cannot jungle at all right now with the new camps and also has way less damage at lv3 than lee sin anyways.

it should theoretically take him a bit of time to dash twice to the enemy AD and kick them into their team no?

https://youtu.be/4U4zS5Z4DCk?t=71

ward hop, q, q, flash, kick, dead adc who had flash up still and used it. It's just you cant flash during lee sin r so it went through and he died. This clip has a frontliner travelling an entire screen of gap closers to assassinate an ADC.

Best objective smite stealing potential? What?

Who else can get vision of the objective from behind the wall (wards dont count, the team will kill them asap), then gap close on it with a bunch of damage + smite?? Then he can ward hop out too

https://youtu.be/4U4zS5Z4DCk?t=46

Of course bengi didn't actually have smite in this clip but it still shows the process. If he had smite up he would have clearly taken it. In, kills someone, could have smited it if not for cooldown, ward hops out to boot

If Lee was really as OP as you make him out to be, how come he's struggling to maintain a 50% winrate,

Because everyone and their dog plays lee sin. You realize how many new / bad players that is?? The more a champion is played, the more meaningful it is that their win rate is good.