Right now it's too expensive to be a starter item and it would be extremely helpful for certain match ups if you could start the game with some extra MR. Plus it's one of the few stats you can't buy at the start of the game. You can get health, armor, AD, AP, mana regen, health regen, crit chance, movespeed, lifesteal, or attack speed, but you can't start with MR.
MohawkBird15 votes[deleted]
qetzel4 votesOne of the reasons. This explanation also forgets that abilities also have base damage.
I think the more important reason is that, while physical and magic are both damage they are not the same damage. Magic damage is gated by cooldowns, often by mana (and aside from Rumble if it isn't then it is very weak), and sometimes by AOE (AOE spells typically deal less damage to a single target making them worse in lane).
And then you have flat pen builds. These are not a thing for AD champions - you can get nothing beyond a brutaliser. Early resists can really shut down these types of build... At least, so I have heard. I am not really able to comment on this, but t seems to be a fair point.
Downfall1 votes{quoted} And then you have flat pen builds. These are not a thing for AD champions - you can get nothing beyond a brutaliser. Early resists can really shut down these types of build... At least, so I have heard. I am not really able to comment on this, but t seems to be a fair point.
Armor penetration Runes tho
Crett1 votesi can confirm. i can get 52 armor pen with youmuu ghostblade brutalizer and runes. dealing true damage to squishies
Fargo792 votesThe reason null magic mantle isn't available as a starting item is because champions start with 0 base ability power, while AD champions already start with around 70 AD.
yes thats right ALL AD based champs start with 0 AP... but all those other champs that use AP start with no less then 25AP.. which means why cant someone want to have a little MR going into lane if they choose?? there is no reason why MR cant have an early game item.. other then a Galio coming into lane with 87MR at lvl 1...
ChaoticPinecone4 votesAP champs need to itemize for AP, and you can just as easily itemize for MR.
Also, its was never really a smart investment to start with a Null back when it was possible (Null + 1 pot). You would get a lot more effective health by starting Boots + pots, Flask + Pots, or Dorans Shield + Potion. It might help you survive a level 2 all-in, but how many mages can do that without them severely outplaying you?
And from what i heard from way back, there was a problem with people starting with Full MR runes, since they basically took no damage in lane. Also, since most abilities have hard limits due to cooldowns and mana early, MR is more effective than Armor in surviving lane.
Meep Man1 votesThe reason null magic mantle isn't available as a starting item is because champions start with 0 base ability power, while AD champions already start with around 70 AD.
And every champions starts with 30 to 32.1 magic resist, while most champions start with around 23-26 armor.
EndlessSorcerer2 votesCrystalline Flask was typically a better starting item even when Null Magic Mantle only cost 400g.
If you really need early MR for a matchup, I'd recommend taking Flat MR Quints and Glyphs and starting with Crystalline Flask.
Frostyloid1 votesCrystalline Flask was typically a better starting item even when Null Magic Mantle only cost 400g.
If you really need early MR for a matchup, I'd recommend taking Flat MR Quints and Glyphs and starting with Crystalline Flask.
Well I would personally rather not spend the money on temporary sustain, and rather put it towards stats that I'll use later. Because imo just rushing a Spectral Cowl is more helpful then starting with Crystalline Flask (especially if you aren't playing a champion with mana).
EndlessSorcerer3 votesEh, you don't really spend much for Crystalline Flask. I find that I rarely sell it before 30 minutes into the game and I can use it too keep myself topped off in lane or roaming around the map. Considering how many potions it has saved me from buying, I'd say it's worth the 207G lost when you finally sell it.
I typically purchase Boots or Long Sword on mana-less champions when laning against AP champions, though Doran's Shield is also an option. They typically rely on skillshots, so dodging them can reduce their damage dramatically. Against champions with primarily targeted abilities, it still offers a lot of sustain and a core purchase.
TotalJerk1 votesWell I would personally rather not spend the money on temporary sustain, and rather put it towards stats that I'll use later.
That's the whole damn purpose of buying a Doran's item, and they're by far the most popular starting items.
Frostyloid1 votesDorans are for the all the stats and effects they provide while being so cost efficient not just because they can restore your health and mana.
ChaoticPinecone4 votesDoing some quick math - with the 30 base magic resist, you take 77% of the damage. Starting with a null magic mantle, you take 66% of the damage. Leblanc's full combo at level 3 with 40 AP does 371 damage before resists - the 11% decrease in damage saves you 40 HP.
Starting Boots + Pots gives you more effective health than starting Mantle + Pot.
Frostyloid1 votesI was thinking it'd be more helpful for those playing tanky characters against AP champs in the top lane. For example, I was playing Shen against a Singed and I would have rather had more MR over the other stats I could have got. I would then have been able to get a Spectral Cowl much faster because I would have put money in it already. (I was going complete tank that game because our team did not have one fyi)
ChaoticPinecone2 votesI chose LB since she has some of the highest base damages and scaling at level 3 with her full combo. Against a Singed, MR is even less effective. Most Singeds dont start with a ton of AP - you generally run movespeed quints and dip into the utility masteries for the movespeed, and they dont start dorans ring.
But for calculations sake lets say singed did start 40 AP, and you stand in his poison for 5 seconds (which is abnormally long). Lets also say that Singed wants to win lane hard, and took 2 points in Q and 1 point in E. His Q does 368 over the 5 seconds you stood in it and the 3 second DoT afterward, his E does 80 + 6% of max health (lets say you have 700 health, so it does 420 damage). Thats a total of 788 damage.
Shen gets MR/level now, so he would have 34 base (74%), and 54 with the null magic (65%). the 9% reduction you get for the 20 MR equates to 71 HP after standing in his poison for 5 seconds. Thats still less than half the health you would get from buying another health pot. Youre still better off going boots+4 in this situation.
Heck, if you want to save yourself 71 HP and want to rush a Cowl, youre better off starting with the ruby crystal + pot than the old possible start of Null + Pot. The ruby crystal would make his E hit for 9 more damage, but the 150 health base of the ruby is better than the 71 damage reduction you would get from a Null.
Frostyloid1 votesOthers have stated that when you could start with Null-Magic Mantle it was unfair to most magic dealing champions because you almost took no damage, but with what you're saying it sounds like would only reduce the damage a little. I'm a bit confused as to why Riot increased the price then by such a large amount then.
ChaoticPinecone2 votesI hope you believe math instead of random claims. The Null Magic start just isnt worth it compared to getting more potions.
I believe riot increased the price for an all-around balancing change of MR/Magic Pen before Season 4. Back in Season 3, you could get the 8% magic pen with only 9 points in the offensive tree. Now you need to go deep into the offensive tree to get the % pen, and its not even as strong (6%). They increased the price of MR, then removed Runic Bulwark to make it harder to itemize against the newly weakened casters. On the AD/Armor side of things, there was a point in S3 where top/jungle/adc/ad mids bought a BOTRK and a Black Cleaver, just because they were so damn strong. It was also a season where tanks werent viable, since offensive power was so effective.
To the people who say that MR is strong, i think they might be thinking back toward the Force of Nature days. Once you got a FON (it was fairly cheap too) against any AP opponent, you were practically immovable - 76 MR, 40 flat health regen, plus % max health regen. But the new items just arent as effective as the old ones.
Frostyloid1 votesI'm not doing to just ignore what they've said because you did some math. There is some validity behind magic damage having a cost associated with it normally, so it shouldn't be as easy to mitigate it early on. But with what you said it doesn't make much of a difference so I don't get why it can't be an option.
It kind of irks me that it's the only basic stat you can't buy when you start the game. :P
Downfall1 votesYeah and why even bother buying health or mana potions for the temporary sustain just save your gold for actual stats you'll use "later"
Frostyloid1 votesI'm not saying they are useless, but rather it's my preference to spend as little money as I can in dead ends. That way I'm making the most effective use of my gold (buy putting in a build path for something I'm going to make later). I'm not saying this is better, but that it's an option that's more appropriate sometimes. Plus I always thought Riot was trying to make so people could make choices to fit their playstyle instead of forcing on superior playstyle.
Strossus Gran2 votesThat was a decision VERY intentionally done by Riot, so no, it won't be reduced to a starter item. On the upside, if you really need it that bad early you're probably top lane and can go get it and tp back to lane, or you're a mid in blind pick that had the poor luck to pick into a terrible matchup, but that's the cost of blind pick. Every time I think 'hey, I'll try Kat again' in blind, there's a team of 5 knockup/targetted stuns on the other team, happens.
EndlessSorcerer2 votesHmm, lets play Katarina.
Oh.
Strossus Gran1 votesExactly...Maybe if I played her more than twice a year, the RNGods wouldn't be able to get me every time...
masterdragon4811 votesI don't think its RNG. You are playing Kat. So the client naturally lines you up against lots of hard CC. Its sorta like karma.
LoLKiru2 votesYeah as other posters said this is done intentionally, you arn't intended to start the game with that much MR (simply due to the nature of most magic damage, its done in bursts based on cooldowns, VS auto attacks which can occur without limit; being able to start with MR would make things pretty rough for nearly every mage)
Also worth noting most mages start with very little AP compared to starting AD (I believe the maximum possible amount of AP, assuming you have a full AP runepage and 21/9/0 masteries is around 67)
Frostyloid1 votesI thought the change was just to streamline the build paths on MR. I mean when they made the change they said.
We want basic defensive items to be about reacting to the situation, which means streamlining those purchases down to their basic components (as opposed to getting accidentally 'trapped' when buying the wrong item). Now if you need defensive armor or magic resistance, buying a basic item is never a "wrong" choice.
I assumed it was more of a result of trying to put Null-Magic Mantle in a spot in between it's previous version and Negatron Cloak. (since Negatron Cloak got removed when it was changed)
LoLKiru1 votesI thought the change was just to streamline the build paths on MR. I mean when they made the change they said. "We want basic defensive items to be about reacting to the situation, which means streamlining those purchases down to their basic components (as opposed to getting accidentally 'trapped' when buying the wrong item). Now if you need defensive armor or magic resistance, buying a basic item is never a "wrong" choice." I assumed it was more of a result of trying to put Null-Magic Mantle in a spot in between it's previous version and Negatron Cloak. (since Negatron Cloak got removed when it was changed)
Its mostly a mix of reasons, thats one of them. It was also said that when NMM was at 400 gold, it was hard for any AP user to really make a scratch on them (since they all start with 0 AP, and magic damage is done in bursts instead of continuously like auto attacks).
I believe their justification towards the end of that point is that AP is generally so low at that point, that the 30 natural MR that everyone gets is expected to be enough to mitigate it.
masterdragon4812 votesI don't think null magic mantle should be a starting item. It obviously caused a LOT of problems and shut down some magic damage champions too well. That being said, I REALLY hate the argument you are using to justify the decision.
Yes, auto attacks are on a shorter cooldown. Yes, champions start with ad. At level 5, master yi sits at 69 ad before runes and masteries. That is certainly more damage than the AP a mage gets, right?. But you completely disregard the fact that a mage is putting levels in abilities; and the base damage on their skills ramps up MUCH faster than ad champions; at least until the first back (maybe). At level 5, malzahar E is up to 200 base damage. Vlad Q is up to 160. Annie Q is up to 150. Yes, these require mana (sometimes). But they are hitting far harder than an auto attacker could possibly hope to match up against.
Of course, there are some ad casters (like riven) who have good physical damage abilities as well. But if your argument is going to compare spells to auto attacks, the statement that auto attacks are better is only true after around 10 minutes.
So in addition to the fact that abilities deal much better damage, are much safer to use, scale much better (at the very least they scale better before the first back), and mages can itemize against AD champions from the start of the game, I don't think this argument is particularly fair. It gets even more unfair when you consider that spells never proc minion aggro while all auto attacks do. Bottom line here: it isn't just fair to compare auto attacks and a spell in a vacuum like that; there is so much more going on in the early game that this argument is rather poor.
Laraso1 votesJust take 21 in utility. Then you can afford it.
Frostyloid1 votesJust take 21 in utility. Then you can afford it.
LOL well you'd only need to put 13 in but still.
MCBiggah991 votesPLEASE do this Rito, it'd be so amazing against LeBlanc, Vlad and such. My Galio wants <3
Best Azır NA1 votesBRING BACK THE GALIO DREAM NULL+2
WutsKraken1 votesI'd really like being able to start with that and 2 pots vs Kennen or Vlad or Rumble, idk
Mandang01 votesIf Riot does this, they should also make amplifying tome cheaper with it. Right now neither gets taken to lane because they're both too expensive on your first buy.
Frostyloid1 votesThat's not true, you have enough money to buy Amplifying Tome and a potion if you want. It might not work in every situation, but it's a perfectly feasible start.
Mandang01 votesRight now neither gets taken to lane because they're both too expensive on your first buy.
I never said you couldn't do it, I just said it wasn't a good choice (which it isn't).
Frostyloid1 votesBut it's actually impossible to start with Null-Magic Mantle which is why I was asking for it to be reduced... People may take other items more often but the option to start with Amplifying Tome is still there, so for those who want to start with it they can. Why would it's price need to be reduced?
Mandang01 votesI'm not arguing that you can't buy null magic mantle, that fact is obvious.
The point I'm getting at is that Riot might have a reason they don't want people taking mantle to lane (many other people have spelled this out in this thread). This is likely the same reason Riot doesn't want people taking cheap AP to lane (amp tome being anywhere near as affordable as long sword). So...if you're gonna do it on one side of the AP items/counter items, you should do it on both.
Frostyloid1 votesOh I'm sorry for misunderstand what you were trying to say, I was confused when you said they were both to expensive to start with. I thought you meant they were both as equally expensive or something.
If anything doesn't it make since that if you can start the game with buying pure AP, shouldn't be able to buy MR to counter that?
Mandang01 votesWell, like others have said, AP and AD are very different stats. Spells are gated by cooldowns and often mana costs, while autoattacks aren't gated by either. I agree that if amp tome were an item people actually ever took to lane, that null magic mantle should be available as a counter item, but as it is now neither item gets taken to lane because it's too punishing for most champs to come to lane w/ only 1 potion and no health (that you would get if you had gone Doran's).
XIII Vanitas1 votesHave you ever asked yourself if you should start with MR in the first place?
JustMyBassCannon1 votesIn the past, I had games where I would start with the MR cloak and potions instead of the mana regen trinkets, usually when laning against Leblanc. And it made a difference.
Frostyloid1 votesThere are a few cases that I would like to start with MR yes. Obviously it's not going to be the most effective start for every single match up, but I would like the option for the few that it might work for.