I feel like Zilean's damage is unreliable.

Tryce Maxwell·Sep 6, 2015·10 votes·1,054 views

Zilean does sorta seem to be Riot's most disliked champion right now for some reason. They changed him up for some support rework thing. But all they really did? Is make his bombs much harder to land, and put a stun on it if hits twice. For his "only" damage ability, it has a very low base, and is far too hard to hit and doesn't feel rewarding when you do, because the damage is so low. It scales heavily into late game, but for a majority of the laning phase, his Q is unreliable for how weak it is.

And if it means anything, he has the lowest pick rate and among the lowest win rates in the game. Are there any plans to make him finally viable?

20 Comments

TurquoiseYoshiSep 6, 20155 votes

The thing is, Zilean has so much utility that buffing his damage would make him extremely good. The thing that Riot actually needs to change is his passive. That passive is just worthless, except maybe as a EXP farm comp with Mordekaiser.

A Miss FortuneSep 6, 20153 votes

Wasn't Zilean's rework a while ago just a big nerf to him?

Tryce MaxwellSep 6, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=llEXrQd3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-06T14:43:28.325+0000)

Wasn't Zilean's rework a while ago just a big nerf to him?

The only changed a few things. Main thing they added was the stun on his double bomb. The numbers for the most part stayed the same. Still, you could say it was a major nerf cause of how easy it is to dodge them.

A Miss FortuneSep 6, 20153 votes

Yeah, if I remember correctly they were just point and click right? I would take that over any type of stun. Chunking people with 0 counterplay.

Earl EulrichSep 7, 20151 votes

yupp, he had been a really good counter to Ahri with the point&click dmg and his anti-assassin-ult. Now he pretty much is unplayable Sololane.

NekusenSep 6, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Tryce Maxwell,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=llEXrQd3,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-09-06T15:20:05.376+0000)

The only changed a few things. Main thing they added was the stun on his double bomb. The numbers for the most part stayed the same. Still, you could say it was a major nerf cause of how easy it is to dodge them.

*hi ult lasted way longer

Rewind reduced ult's cooldown
his passive was global
he had general lower cooldowns
bombs were targeted

they could give him a useful passive
make the second bomb prioritize target with the first one
increase the travel speed of bombs when thrown

UltraSceptileSep 6, 20152 votes

The problem is he has too much utility. His slow is basically a stun, and his speed up literally gives the adc homeguards. A good zilean post six will never let their adc die unless they're literally braindead.

If they want to make his damage reliable nerf his ability to have almost nonexistent cooldowns and that 99% slow and speed up.

BârdSep 6, 20152 votes

He doesn't have a 99% slow. It SAYS he does, but the way that those are coded does not allow for that. Slows are capped at 75% due to diminishing returns.

It used to work like that, but then this happened https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgoY7iqB9Z4

duludem333Sep 6, 20151 votes

Fix this by making his passive into rewind so every ten seconds if he uses an ability it wouldn't apply a cool down and then actually giving him a w that does either damage or makes his kit more than just throwing bombs. I my opinion this would make him more enjoyable while still keeping his bombs in there current state. Idk what I would make his new w do to be honest though.

blueberryguySep 6, 20151 votes

His damage is unreliable, yes, but if you land it, it hurts like crazy with its 90% ap scaling. However, yes, I agree with you. If you miss both of your bombs, you have no other damage sources.

LiggittManSep 6, 20151 votes

Zilean never set his watch back to account for daylight savings, this is why

LuggSep 6, 20151 votes

I think the rework was great for his damage. It still hits like a truck with the chance for an AoE stun. He may be the best support lane bully in the game right now. He can completely zone out the enemy ADC from farm.

Chuck CharlesSep 6, 20151 votes

wait did you say zilean's dmg has a low base...haha...once you rank it up its base is like 300 dmg and it has a 90% ap ratio that you can TWICE every 4 to 5 seconds. thats right 4 bombs 8 seconds. sure its a skillshot...but the damage is huge, its aoe. and even if you miss the bomb zones out an enemy on the ground for hte duration. zilean can zone, he can do tons of damage. he has an aoe stun that is not as hard to land as you think it is. if you slow the enemy before you bomb it is an easy free double bomb or you force a flash at the very least. the trade off is its risky to do that...and it should always be risky to do butt tons of damage. zilean is honestly in a great place everywhere...except his passive. his passive absolute garbage and needs a new one to make him viable. he is very close to being viable. his ultimate is still the best ultimate in the game.

Earl EulrichSep 7, 20151 votes

It´s rather the opposit...the base-dmg of the bombs is quite high, but as it is his only dmg-skill he really doesn´t scale well into the lategame from a dmg-perspective, and his utility doesn´t scale with gear at all (ok, some hp on the ult, but meeh) - so playing Sololane Zilean means snowball or lose. And as the dmg now offers counterplay it´s mostly lose vs more experienced opponents.

He really would deserve a full rework...placing him either as a support or a mage (i´d favour mage), not as someone that is bad at both.

CatastropSep 7, 20151 votes

Personally, I'd love if they kept his entire kit and just changed that passive. It's really the only thing holding him back. maybe swap W for his passive and give him a new move altogether. His kit is actually really fun once you get the hang of it and I'd really miss it if they did just rework everything about him.

Tryce MaxwellSep 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Personally, I'd love if they kept his entire kit and just changed that passive. It's really the only thing holding him back. maybe swap W for his passive and give him a new move altogether. His kit is actually really fun once you get the hang of it and I'd really miss it if they did just rework everything about him.

What if the passive was something like.

"Whenever Zilean casts the same spell within 5 seconds of the first, the second ability has an empowered effect"?

CatastropSep 7, 20151 votes

Hmm, it's kind of meh to be honest but it would be better than what he has right now. It really depends on the empowered effects. However, I was thinking something along the lines of, every X seconds Zilean can cast a spell for a 0 Second CD, allowing him keep a signature part of his kit and change the W to something more engaging.

WhiskerWowSep 7, 20151 votes

Zilean actually has a very high base on his Q. 300 damage at rank 5. However, as his only damage source is a single skill-shot, he is unreliable.

I actually made a Zilean rework idea, but no one noticed it and his bombs are still unreliable.

Tryce MaxwellSep 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Zilean actually has a very high base on his Q. 300 damage at rank 5. However, as his only damage source is a single skill-shot, he is unreliable.

I actually made a Zilean rework idea, but no one noticed it and his bombs are still unreliable.

But it is his only damaging ability. Even twice it's only 600. And it really is hard to hit. If nothing else at all, at least increase the stick radius of bombs to be larger.

Water BreathingSep 7, 20151 votes

I think zilean is actually fine in terms of support. I don't play him mid, so I can't speak for that, but I'm doing well with support zilean.

I see a lot people max Q first in support, and I actually think that isn't the best way to play him in bot. Usually I put 3 points in E, max W, finish E, then max Q. With 70% slow, it's almost impossible to miss your stun on someone unless they have a dash. However, shorter dashes aren't too bad because a lot of adcs will panic and use if after you put the first bomb on them, but before you throw the second one. So usually I wait a second before throwing the second if they have a dash.

But the lockdown is crazy. 2.5 s + 1.1 s+ 2.5 s= 6.1 seconds

His level 1-2 are pretty rough and can be abused easily. He also struggles against supports / ADCs with long range mobility. Plus....Morgana basically hard counters with her E.

But mid nd late game he is a monster. Probably one of the best late game supports. I think he actually really thrives in SoloQ right now because the 99% slow with essentially a 3.6 s CD is the bane of Darius Garen Skarner Mordekaiser and even some of the stated junglers like Shyvana Jax Udyr Warwick