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@Riot: How I can accept Dynamic Queue as a Solo-only player

Lykanthar··92 votes·3,795 views

This is just going to be a small list to illustrate what I believe is required for acceptance of dynamic queue as a legitimate alternative to the solo-only ranking system. I will attempt to justify each requirement as well as possible, and provide examples. This is not a "Do this or I quit" post. This is only my opinion as a mid plat player who has been witness to many other games die off as a result of game developers prioritizing one group of players over another.

  1. Voice chat. Communication is likely the most important factor in competitive (ranked) play . Chat, pings and voice are all useful in different ways. Denying one form of communication to certain players makes the system fundamentally unfair, and therefore cannot be a legitimate form of ranking skill. It is as ridiculous as denying certain players a mini-map and expecting them to play just as well.

  2. Identify which players are multi queue. Allowing multi queue players to identify solo players but not vice versa fundamentally alters the way teams function, is unfair to solo players, and can create dysfunctional (or even hostile) environments. For example, if as a solo player I know that I am playing with other solo players, then I know that there is not going to be any team coordination outside of in-game communications. I know that I may need to lead, I may need to make more solo plays, I many need to split push, etc... If I know that I am playing with a 4-person queue then I know that they will likely have a game plan and I will be more likely to follow along. If however, I have no clue whether my team is solo or multi-queue, I cannot alter my own play style to suit the team. I may attempt to make plays that my team might not want to follow, I may try to lead a team that is trying to lead me, I might try split pushing and get flamed for not grouping, or I may blindly try to follow my team despite them not having any plan at all.

  3. Separate Ranking. Ranking solo and multi-queue players under the same MMR ranking system is impossible because the skill set required to succeed in each case is just fundamentally different. Rather than 2 distinct and separate ladders, I think the best option would be more of a "tree" approach, in which both dynamic and solo MMR shares the same "trunk" (bronze to low gold), and then branches out depending on which system you use primarily to climb with. The idea would be that all ladder climbing above silver grants a special "dynamic" MMR (essentially a pseudo MMR pool). A percentage of all MMR gained through dynamic queue would be considered pseudo MMR that needs to be confirmed through solo play. So for example, If you climb to 2000 MMR with dynamic queue only, you may be at 1600 solo MMR with a 400 pseudo MMR pool. If you then play a solo game, you will be matched as if you are only 1600 MMR, If you win games your psuedo MMR gets added to your raw MMR as "bonus points", if you lose then your pseudo MMR pool grows instead. Essentially this is the same method that allows new accounts to quickly gain or lose MRR until the system gains "confidence" that you are where you belong. The purpose of this, obviously, is so a player that reaches diamond through dynamic queue, but only has a gold level solo skill doesn't ruin diamond level games when playing solo, but they still get to keep their diamond level rewards for their dynamic queue achievements.

  4. Solo-only prioritized matchmaking. I understand that in order to make dynamic queue function, some solo players will need to be matched with and against multi-queue players. However, there needs to be some sort of system in place for solo-only players, especially at higher levels (Diamond 1-Challenger), so that their rank/reward is not held back by multi-queue opponents. No solo-queue star is ever going to be able climb against dynamic queue pro teams. For example, Player X is currently Diamond 2. When they play solo they have an 80% win rate against solo opponents, but only 20% win rate against multi queue opponents. In a situation like this it becomes obvious that Player X could easily be a higher rank (maybe master or challenger) if they were in a fair solo environment. They could likely also reach the same rank if they were participating in a master/challenger multi-queue. Therefore, the system needs to be designed to allow player X to climb without forcing them to use multi-queue. The matchmaking system therefore should prioritize matching solo-only players against solo-only players, and fill any dynamic queue games with players that also play dynamic queue. For example if player X plays solo for 90% of his games, the system should try to get them in solo-only games at least 50% of the time. If player Y plays in multi-queue and solo roughly equally, than the system should prioritize putting player Y into games with multi-queue when they play solo.

TL:DR: 1) Voice chat. 2) show us the multi-queue players in champ select. 3) Separate MMRs for dynamic and solo players so people who get carried in multi-queues don't ruin games when they play solo. 4) Increase priority for solo players to be matched with/against other solo players

67 Comments

The Bearded Bard19 votes

The reason I don't want voice chat is because I don't want to hear most of you squeaky voiced mouth breathers. And yeah, you can tell me to mute you, but then I'm missing out on pings, mias, etc because you aren't going to use the normal chat or pings if you're on voice chat.

Asyde3 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Bearded Bard,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lTWgRzE4,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-06-03T15:26:26.320+0000)

The reason I don't want voice chat is because I don't want to hear most of you squeaky voiced mouth breathers. And yeah, you can tell me to mute you, but then I'm missing out on pings, mias, etc because you aren't going to use the normal chat or pings if you're on voice chat.

Need two options then, mute voice, mute pings

Wimbledofy3 votes

he said THEY WON'T BE USING THEM, not that he won't be able to hear them. guessing you didn't read what he wrote?

Lauchmelder11 votes

How to enjoy DynamicQ:

1.) Take a look at yourself and try to improve yourself. 2.) Don't give a fk about your teammates rank or premade Status (applies to enemies as well)

I am having fun this season. Why? Because idgaf about my teammates/enemies rank/premade Status because I want to improve my GAMEPLAY. Not my rank.

Dioxao6 votes

Agreed 100%. New to the game as of this season and I'm having fun experimenting with characters/roles outside of ranked. In ranked I stick to support or bot as those are my most comfortable roles.

Just finished my ranked placement as well, silver 4 (queue the noob comments from higher ranks). Didn't experience ANY premade groups of 4 or 5 on my side or opponent side during placements. Saw a few duos and one trio, but that's about it.

I realize things may be different in higher ranks, but given the amount of elitism I see here on the boards from players diamond and above my sympathy is limited.

Lauchmelder7 votes

Sad thing is people rather qq instead of improving themselves.

What do I care if that guy got carried to gold 5? I earned it myself. The whining about Dynamic Q basically is pointless jealousy.

AwesomeChad2 votes

i don't think you're seeing the big idea. Having premades(specifically the idea of having 1 unified premade vs. multiple premades on ur team) is actually a big variable in your overall experience as a solo ranked player. There is not much you can do if your playstyle is reading what your allies are doing and reacting appropriately. If ur allies are all in teamspeak, they might not ping or type in chat. At a pivotal points in the game like a late game teamfight, they might just leave randomly and if you didn't notice that/get the memo, you might make a decision that you personally thought was a good idea but ends up being a mistake due to your teammates not being on the same page.

THIS is why I dislike DQ's lack of transparency regarding which player is premade or solo.

DefNotABot5 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lTWgRzE4,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-06-03T12:10:32.317+0000)

How to enjoy DynamicQ:

1.) Take a look at yourself and try to improve yourself. 2.) Don't give a fk about your teammates rank or premade Status (applies to enemies as well)

I am having fun this season. Why? Because idgaf about my teammates/enemies rank/premade Status because I want to improve my GAMEPLAY. Not my rank.

You enjoy dynamic queue hooray for you. Now tell me which of these points are things dynamic queue allows you to do that soloq didn't?

Lauchmelder2 votes

Both points work(ed) in both DynamicQ and SoloQ.

And exactly that's the point. There is no goddamn difference.

DefNotABot1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lTWgRzE4,comment-id=000100010000,timestamp=2016-06-03T23:12:41.964+0000)

Both points work(ed) in both DynamicQ and SoloQ.

And exactly that's the point. There is no goddamn difference.

Except Dynamic queue has done more harm to the competitive scene than soloq. Your argument for it is invalid. If it truly makes no difference to you, then don't defend it

Lauchmelder2 votes

We don't live in Nazi Germany where everyone that disagrees with your opinion has to shut up.

Having said that, give us some examples of the harm done.

DefNotABot1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lTWgRzE4,comment-id=00010001000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-04T10:27:29.882+0000)

We don't live in Nazi Germany where everyone that disagrees with your opinion has to shut up.

Having said that, give us some examples of the harm done.

The supreme disbalance between games. Premades using voice communication have a huge advantage over other premades who don't and solo players who can't use it. Another point is how difficult it is to solo carry as a soloq player these days. You start doing well and any competent premade will try to shut you down. If you're doing well, the premade on your team will generally leave you alone and aide each other, thinking you're independent enough. If you're doing poorly, the premade on your team will think you're not worth the trouble of putting resources in and ignore you. I don't blame them either. It's harder to trust people you've never met over your friends, who's skill levels you know. If you make a call in soloq and your premade disagrees, they'll ignore your call and follow their calls. Premades using communication can also dive early game much more safely and are harder to gank. It's a lot easier to tell your teammate "hey my laner is missing I think they're heading to your lane" over a simple MIA ping where your team doesn't know who is going where. And let's not forget how smurf boosting is legal now. I smurf boost my friends and even I think it's completely stupid and wrong.

Lauchmelder1 votes

[{quoted}](name=a wiggly pug,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lTWgRzE4,comment-id=000100010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-06T18:06:21.445+0000)

1.) The supreme disbalance between games. Premades using voice communication have a huge advantage over other premades who don't and solo players who can't use it.

2.) Another point is how difficult it is to solo carry as a soloq player these days. You start doing well and any competent premade will try to shut you down.

If you're doing well, the premade on your team will generally leave you alone and aide each other, thinking you're independent enough. If you're doing poorly, the premade on your team will think you're not worth the trouble of putting resources in and ignore you.

I don't blame them either. It's harder to trust people you've never met over your friends, who's skill levels you know.

3.) If you make a call in soloq and your premade disagrees, they'll ignore your call and follow their calls.

4.) Premades using communication can also dive early game much more safely and are harder to gank.

5.) It's a lot easier to tell your teammate "hey my laner is missing I think they're heading to your lane" over a simple MIA ping where your team doesn't know who is going where.

6.) And let's not forget how smurf boosting is legal now. I smurf boost my friends and even I think it's completely stupid and wrong.

Modified your post to make it easier to read and comment to

1.) Nothing stops you from using Curse Voice or inviting the randoms to a skype call/ Teamspeak server.

2.) That Point had no substance (aka you can't read any real argument in it): Yes, it's hard to solocarry a teamgame. I think that's how it's supposed to work (not quite sure though)

3.) Which happened in SoloQ as well. Solos can be idiots too. Generally speaking if they got someone who can actively shotcall good enough to be called an actual shotcaller then that person will see a good call. If it's a bad call they won't follow up.

4.) I give you the first part. The harder to gank is debatable, a lot premades play overaggressive without warding their lanes.

5.) " [Insert lane] miss" *pings MIA (that's literally what every premade I played with said at max)

6.) That's nothing new (DuoQ)

DefNotABot1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lTWgRzE4,comment-id=0001000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-07T06:13:18.518+0000)

Modified your post to make it easier to read and comment to

1.) Nothing stops you from using Curse Voice or inviting the randoms to a skype call/ Teamspeak server.

2.) That Point had no substance (aka you can't read any real argument in it): Yes, it's hard to solocarry a teamgame. I think that's how it's supposed to work (not quite sure though)

3.) Which happened in SoloQ as well. Solos can be idiots too. Generally speaking if they got someone who can actively shotcall good enough to be called an actual shotcaller then that person will see a good call. If it's a bad call they won't follow up.

4.) I give you the first part. The harder to gank is debatable, a lot premades play overaggressive without warding their lanes.

5.) " [Insert lane] miss" *pings MIA (that's literally what every premade I played with said at max)

6.) That's nothing new (DuoQ)

Thank you for the formatting

  1. Curse voice was banned for the very reason that Riot did not want you to invite random people to a call. They even stated nobody should have to use a 3rd party feature in order to remain competitive

  2. I did not write that well. Instead of solo carrying, I should have said your individual skill counts for less. As an example, I am a diamond smurf (season 4 and season 5 diamond. Never bothered attempting it in this season) In previous seasons, I had a 96% winrate on zed (50 games), 85% winrate on malzahar and nami, and roughly 80% on everyone else in silver elo. In this season, I have a higher winrate in dynamic queue when I smurf in silver, as long as I'm with non boosted teammates. However, my soloq winrate has dropped to roughly 60-70% on my BEST champions. I noticed from day 1 of dynamic queue that the meta had changed. Premades that were serious about winning generally looked up stats before game and the second they saw me smurfing, they made a point of camping me out. In the very first week of dynamic queue, not a SINGLE game had passed by where I hadn't been camped (where I knew premades were on the opposing team anyways). Sure, teamwork is a good way to go and dynamic queue has achieved that for premades. My teammates trust me inherently because they knew I was a smurf and would follow my orders blindly. In that sense, dynamic queue is GREAT. However, this system completely shuts down anyone who is Soloqing. Because you don't have that inherent trust. You don't know if your teammates are good or not so you naturally will trusty our teammates that you do know.

  3. You're right. In the old system, calls can still be ignored. It was up to the team as a whole to decide on the spot who to follow and majority ruled. It was unbiased and people made decisions based on their own sense of logic and their faith in the teammates who demonstrated good judgement already. Everyone had a fair shot of being trustworthy or not trustworthy. However dynamic queue severely unbalances that. Premades are much less likely to trust your call if it doesn't match with them because they have that bias of trusting each other more. If I made a bad call that was opposed, my premades will trust me blindly anyways.

  4. In the old soloq, players were expected to master every skill alone. They had to ward, learn when to extend, watch the map and their opponent. Dynamic queue players have the luxury of calling out MIAs via voice chat which is significantly better than in game pings. I've screwed over soloq players on my team because I simply called MIA via voicechat and didn't ping. Screwing soloq players aside, if my opponent goes missing, I can give a rough estimate of where they're going, when they'll be there, what abilities they have up, how strong they are, and I can ask if they need my assistance or not

  5. See point 4

  6. I have to openly confess my sins here. I used to be a major elobooster. I've probably boosted about 70 accounts in my life. I've retired a few months ago as I don't have that much fun playing this game anymore (I only play with my gf now on our own smurfs). Through my entire life, I have never had such an easy time boosting than I did early on in dynamic queue. I had a team of boosters, 3-4 at a time, all on client accounts and we would just shred through the enemy team. Absolutely no mercy. Sometimes we'd have clients tag along on their own accounts while we smurfed. Completely legal. Since retiring, I've still boosted a few friends via dynamic queue. Do they deserve their rank? Evidently not since they keep getting demoted when they soloq. Sorry to say but boosting is such a big issue now ranked games are incredibly unbalanced, especially the higher you go. I have never met so many boosters in my entire life of playing and I've been in the boosting business for 2 years.

Welp. If Riot bans me now, I'd like to just say I'm happy I got this off my chest. I'm sick of not being able to speak my mind. I've played thousands of games in every elo up to diamond. The entire game has changed for every elo and while there are good changes, I've mostly been disappointed

Lauchmelder1 votes

Well written post.

One thing though: Didn't they ban Curse Voice (I remembered after reading your post) due to having jungle timers?

DefNotABot1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MadKnife IV,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=lTWgRzE4,comment-id=000100010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-06-08T06:37:55.123+0000)

Well written post.

One thing though: Didn't they ban Curse Voice (I remembered after reading your post) due to having jungle timers?

This is the official statement released by Riot when they banned curse voice: Two elements of Curse Voice aren’t allowed under this new policy:

  1. Automated timers: while our design team is still exploring whether we’d want to add any kind of built-in timers to League of Legends, we agree with many of you that having it accessible only through a third-party app is a clear competitive advantage between those who download it and those who do not, and isn’t acceptable.

  2. Automated voice calls: We have no problem with players hopping on Curse Voice (or any other voice chat client) to coordinate with their friends in-game, but when the application begins directly connecting you with dozens of other people in unfiltered (and untrackable) voice chats, it can make for a huge negative player experience in a space where we can’t help.

69982196_DEL2 votes

When was the last time you played ranked? Right now you can very easily get 4 carried bronces in a gold game as your mates. Try enjoying the fact that neither of your carrys hit 100 CS by the 20 minute mark and are completly stomped in their lanes.

Lauchmelder1 votes

So if I can get 4 boosted bronzes in my team what stops the enemy team from having 5 boosted bronzes?

It's the law of flamers. You aren't one so you can get a max of 4 toxic players in your team. The enemy can have 5.

69982196_DEL2 votes

That's right, now tell how improving goes when you play with that kind of players? I don't bitch about my win rates, it's more about the quality of the matches.

Rocky24 votes

I would like voice chat. It has existed successfully in many other games for many years, on consoles and PC. I've always found it to be useful, and nowhere near the toxicity level of LoL chat sometimes. It allows for better coordination than pings, because you can convey exactly what you are planning to do, rather than a generic "On my way". Instead you can say, "I'm going to come up through lane, wait until I ult before engaging".

Voidrey1 votes

Unless league's toxicity is as low as heard its been recently, I really not have 4 ragers and trolls screaming in my ear

OneSmoothDude2 votes

League's toxicity is lower because of new champ select. Players are going into games with much less negativity than they have in previous seasons because pick order sucked.

Imagine if this game didn't have text chat for years. People only had pings to go off of. That would suck, right? It's hard to even imagine how people would play the game with such poor infrastructure and communication.

If we got voice chat right now, this is how players in two years would view the game as we play it today.

The difference between voice chat and text chat is the same as the difference between text chat and pings. You can communicate so much better. It's faster, you can get more across, you can set things up better, you don't have to stop moving if you want to say more than 5 words...it is just WORLDS better.

And, just like with text chat, there will be a mute option for voice chat. Just like text chat, some people would use voice chat every single game to great effect, some people wouldn't say much but would listen to others, some people will flame you with it and you can mute them, etc.

Bottom line, it would be another tool that users could use to communicate in a team-based game. It would progress the game.

Voidrey4 votes

This is way more helpful and actually contributes the problem that's happening than all those "F U Riot", "I'm going over to Overwatch" and "Give us Solo Queue"

Dominick Destine6 votes

{quoted}

This is way more helpful and actually contributes the problem that's happening than all those "F U Riot", "I'm going over to Overwatch" and "Give us Solo Queue"

They're both equally helpful.

Every voice telling Riot that they royally forked up is useful.

Voidrey2 votes

I think its obvious to them now that they fucked bad now. This is one of the few posts on how Dynamic can be balanced into something that both casuals and pros can enjoy. Yeah, its not coming back; suck it up. Since Solo is dead and we're left with Dynamic to work with, may as well do something with it

Dominick Destine3 votes

{quoted}

I think its obvious to them now that they fucked bad now.

If that's the case, where is the announcement that they're going to give us back what they removed? (aka solo queue)

"Hey I cheated on my girlfriend, but I said I was sorry.... and Imma do it again, BUT I'M REAL SORRY"

Voidrey4 votes

You pretty much just ignored the main point I was trying to make here. We need more solutions than rants. Solo Queue is dead. accept it you know it to be true

Lirik3 votes

i can you even get numbers out of 3 games who was gone like this first game you were solo you won did great bla bla bla second game you were a premade of 3 you lost you did great anyway bla bla bla third game you were premade of 5 you won and did play poorly and got carried hardcore

how the hell can you decide a skills range for that player after this nothing is separated thats just make no fucking sense at all the ranking system don't represent a true skill range right now and its totaly meaningless

OneSmoothDude1 votes

That first sentence/paragraph is gave me a headache.

I cut my losses and didn't read the second one.

Oleandervine3 votes

They implemented a 3 limit max on Diamond+ queues. That should fix the whole terror of going against 4 and 5 mans.

LatetotheRace2 votes

Yes, but the majority of players aren't in diamond. This system should really kick in about platinum, or possibly gold 1-2.

Erockandroll2 votes

{quoted}

Yes, but the majority of players aren't in diamond. This system should really kick in about platinum, or possibly gold 1-2.

You know point 4 about OP's post, about how solo's V solo's should be prioritized. That's already true for 99% of the time in lower ELO. That factor only really breaks down at the higher levels.

Flitchee2 votes

Also, there is a GIGANTIC difference between a 5 stack in diamond and a 5 stack in gold, and even more so in bronze. Allow me to elaborate. Diamond players know what they are doing, Gold players don't know as much of what they are doing, and well bronze, i think you get the idea. Diamond there is very little to be done, Gold is doable, and Bronze, well hey, sure they may dick you in lane, but guess what they gonna do? They will ass around all game until that gold lead they had no longer matters.

LostFr0st1 votes

I second this. Give us a reason to climb to Plat. So 5-4-3-2-1s at Bronze through Gold two roles selected; Plat is 3-2-1s three roles, Diamond+ is 1s or 2s with three roles selected?

For Diamond+ have 5s live during the time after scrims? (when most of the 5s happen)

Lykanthar1 votes

Unfortunately this is a temporary bandaid, that IMO will cause more harm than good.

It wasn't that long ago that Riot allowed entrance into their competitive scene, entirely based on how high a random premade of 5 could get on the old ranked 5s ladder. Now 5 person premades cant even play at a high level at all. I might not like dynamic queue, but this "solution" is hilariously bad.

LoomberFoot2 votes

I am a recently plat 3 player who does not hate DQ even though I solo q. Some of my reasons are 1)I have not encountered a lot of premades and when I do there are ways to communicate still, league might have said no curse but that doesn't stop you using other voice communication services like Team-speak or discord.2) I find it when people q with friends and find out the enemy team is not premade than they can get overconfident or just make really stupid mistakes because of only climbing with DQ. I agree that riot should create voice communication and maybe go as far to do what lots of people are saying and create 2 different ladders similar to how dota 2 has both mmr for queuing with friends and a different one for solo q. ( I have no idea if they can even create the 2 different ladder ranks without creatin a separate q because I am NOT a coder and I am just throwing out ideas)

Goosetard2 votes

Just skimmed this but item 3 is a really, really creative idea. I've been brainstorming a lot to try to figure out a solution that preserves queue health and competitive integrity. This is a really cool take on this.

Steven Mcburn1 votes

At one point of time we had a normal and a ranked queue system.

Now we have a normal and a normal-with-ranking system.

No amount of bandaids will change that. It's cool that you're offering suggestions to fix it, but it won't really fix the issue here. Solo queue and ranked 5's weren't successful because people loved playing normals so much, they were successful because they were different.

It's like playing SR vs Dominion. Yeah, dominion was cool and fun, but if they just deleted SR and made everyone play dominion a lot of people would be upset. It's just not the same, no matter how much you change about dominion it'll never be SR. Just like no matter how much they change this queue it'll never be a real ranked system.

OneSmoothDude1 votes

At one point of time we had a normal and a ranked queue system.

Now we have a normal and a normal-with-ranking system.

Why do you call DQ 'normal-with-ranking'? It's still ranked. It's the only ranked there is now, actually. If people don't feel like tryharding, then normals are still available.

It makes sense why Riot didn't release DQ and SQ simultaneously actually, because people would be even more willing to dismiss DQ rankings than they already are.

Solo queue and ranked 5's weren't successful because people loved playing normals so much, they were successful because they were different.

Actually, Ranked 5s was very unsuccessful. Queue times and matchmaking quality were awful in Bronze and only got worse as elo increased. This is why it was scrapped.

Steven Mcburn1 votes

{quoted} Why do you call DQ 'normal-with-ranking'? It's still ranked. It's the only ranked there is now, actually. If people don't feel like tryharding, then normals are still available.

Can you tell me the exact difference between normal games and ranked games right now?

Besides one shows you your rating and one doesn't, what's the difference? If you fundamentally understand how matchmaking works, you know that your normal games already had a rating; riot just chose not to show it to you.

I had something like 3k normal games played and something like 2k-2.5k ranked games and for a long time personally when I queued up for normals it was mostly against platish level players, no one took it less seriously than say a game in gold solo queue. The reason I stopped playing normals was because I didn't like the group-queue.

So I'm genuinely curious though, what's the difference? *Edit: If you're reported in ranked or you're reported in normal the system doesn't weigh one more than the other either. So it's not like somehow it's more acceptable to troll in normals. Maybe people don't always try as hard in normals, but that definitely wasn't my experience in like I said ~3k games.

OneSmoothDude1 votes

Can you tell me the exact difference between normal games and ranked games right now?

Sure. One of them is ranked, and one is unranked.

Besides one shows you your rating and one doesn't, what's the difference?

...

If you fundamentally understand how matchmaking works, you know that your normal games already had a rating; riot just chose not to show it to you.

Right. But that ranking is invisible and doesn't matter. Because it's unranked.

The difference in terms of how you play them is in player perception. Players should try their hardest to win in ranked. They should do things they really think will work. There are expectations of people. Everybody goes into it knowing that they are trying to win, and so are their opponents.

There isn't a huge, quantifiable change in normals. League is a competitive game in any mode simply because there is always a winning team and a losing team. But the difference is that normals shouldn't be as serious as ranked. It's fine if you want to try out new champions, or builds, new roles, or new strats in normals, because winning and losing doesn't affect your rank. So this is where you can prepare for ranked (because as you say, they are pretty similar) in an environment that isn't ranked.

You've shown that you KNOW the difference. Whether or not that difference matters to you is another story. It's not up to me to tell you what's important for you. If you care about your rank, then play ranked. If you want to still play League but under less stressful conditions, play normals. If you play normals just as seriously as you play ranked, then why not just play ranked?

Steven Mcburn1 votes

{quoted}

Sure. One of them is ranked, and one is unranked.

...

Right. But that ranking is invisible and doesn't matter. Because it's unranked.

The difference in terms of how you play them is in player perception. Players should try their hardest to win in ranked. They should do things they really think will work. There are expectations of people. Everybody goes into it knowing that they are trying to win, and so are their opponents.

At this point you're ignoring the fact that the queues are the same. Completely. You've cherry picked what you're quoting to try to craft an argument that it's psychological, that somehow showing the rating even though everyone knew it existed changes the play. But let's not dwell on this here, let's see what else you have to say.

There isn't a huge, quantifiable change in normals. League is a competitive game in any mode simply because there is always a winning team and a losing team. But the difference is that normals shouldn't be as serious as ranked. It's fine if you want to try out new champions, or builds, new roles, or new strats in normals, because winning and losing doesn't affect your rank. So this is where you can prepare for ranked (because as you say, they are pretty similar) in an environment that isn't ranked.

So, here's the deal, you acknowledged my point twice using two different meanings here. First, you acknowledged that the game modes themselves are essentially the same; there's no quantifiable change in normals. Then you forgot that there is a rating system in normals and say you could prepare for ranked in normals where losing doesn't change your rank.

You've shown that you KNOW the difference. Whether or not that difference matters to you is another story. It's not up to me to tell you what's important for you.** If you care about your rank, then play ranked. **If you want to still play League but under less stressful conditions, play normals. If you play normals just as seriously as you play ranked, then why not just play ranked?

I don't know if you actually read what I wrote with this paragraph. I never said anything about stress, I don't care about 90% of what you wrote there, it has nothing to do with me. It's just more crafting of an argument of psychology.

Things people lost so that two identical queues could exist;

  1. The ability to play on a level playing field, with easy well balanced match making.
  2. The ability to feel like you had an impact on every one of your games, as if every game there was something individually you could do to impact it.
  3. The ability to choose which style of play you preferred, then pursue it. You didn't have to always be in the "stressful" environment of being the fifth in a group of 5 players, 4 of which queued up together. You didn't always have to be on a team of 4 other individuals against a team of a full premade. You had an opt out.

Essentially, the point you missed is, it doesn't matter if they show you your rating. It's two identical queues. It's not a massive impact on your psych to show you your normal rating, it exists and you're aware of it, and it's not a massive impact on your psych to award you end of the season rewards. The "new queue" isn't anything new, it exists and has existed for 7 years. If this was the direction they wanted to go they could've easily just revamped the normal queue itself to fit a system that is the same, outside of showing your rating, instead of replacing a functioning ladder and upsetting the portion of the community that they're depending on to make their new queue work.

I'm more than aware of what I know, you don't have to tell me bud.

The Nidja1 votes

  1. Voice chat. Yes.

  2. Identify which players are multi queue. I Don't like the sound of that. Problem rise up when people know who is q'ed with who. Example: duo's in old system would receive a lot of shit just for duoing. Also, would result in a confirmation biases and encourage solo's to blame their team for the lose instead of self reflection.

  3. Separate Ranking. Confusing, but yes assuming that they play on the same ladder.

  4. Solo-only prioritized matchmaking. No, they aren't getting hold back if you are 3 man and 2 solos vs same the system works, also would make Q-times a nightmare.

"They could likely also reach the same rank if they were participating in a master/challenger multi-queue."

If they could then why don't they? This is the real issue at hand people are saying there is no skill in playing in a team, but in reality there is and the fact that you can't get up to that level solo only goes to show you should be on a team if you really are competitive no one should care for solo-Q heroes. The fact of the matter is league is a TEAM game not a solo game so people should be judged accordingly, and people complain about competitive integrity don't know what it means to be competitive. Think of time you played a sport with friends outside. Now imagine you are playing your game with your friends and mix up the teams a lot. Sure it may be fun and you may improve. Now you are approached by or apply for a team. You could choose the more competitive thing of joining said team or not. Just think if you truly are competitive you would do whatever you can do to win not cripple yourself by defying yourself as a solo player. Solo-Q league is not the real game.

Edit: I used some fallacies my bad in the last bit, but I still feel the points are valid.

LostFr0st1 votes

We used to be able to see which were duo anyways on op.gg. Riot removed that ability/it doesn't work anymore you can only see recently played with I think.

If it's more than two it's very important to know who'll be on the same page with who if they make a play.

Lykanthar1 votes
  1. I agree problems can rise up when people know who is queued with who. Right now, 3 and 4 person queues DO know who is queued with who, which is the problem. All the confirmation bias/blame/etc... is currently being allowed to be placed on the solo players by the multi-queue players but not vice versa. I see no difference between solo players blaming multi queues or multi queues blaming solo players. Its the same problem, and cannot be fixed just by hiding information. My point was about a fair system, not about deciding which players are allowed to have their bias protected.

"If they could then why don't they?" <etc>

Because different people are different.

I'll use a a reversed example.

Back in the day I was a broodwar player, I played campaigns, 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, UMS, etc.. all of it. By the end of my broodwar days I was playing something called "3v3 zc no rules". For those that don't know what this is, it was a hacked map with increased mineral income. (ie not how blizzard intended the game to be played) When Starcraft 2 came around, hacked maps like the ones I played did not exist and/or never became popular, largely because Blizzard focused their entire client on 1v1 competitive play and gave very little support to the UMS or the multi player crowd. Players like me never really got too interested due to being denied the type of play that I enjoyed from broodwar (I played SC2 seriously for a couple months and got to Diamond and lost interest).

The point, is that when a game developer decides how their game should be played, players who disagree lose interest. They may not all rage-quit or post on forums or vocalize their opinions; they will just silently move on. I still have SC2 installed, and I still play it occasionally, but that's not enough to keep a game thriving. Its the same scenario here in reverse. Blizzard decided that SC2 is a 1v1 game and gave up on their multiplayer population. Riot is currently deciding that LOL is a multi-queue game and is giving up on their solo population. In my opinion this is a failed ideology (proven by many mistakes made by blizzard and other game companies) that believes that improving the game for a majority of players is worth alienating a minority. It doesn't work because the majority that likes the change will forget about it and consider it "standard" in a few months, and the only net outcome is the player base gets smaller. Later, a new majority will form and want a new feature that alienates another minority. After a few cycles of this the game is dead. Its a much better and more enjoyable game for those that like it, but its still dead.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Here is the problem:

  1. Premades know who are solo.

  2. Solos don't know who is premade.

In most games, I try to be a shotcaller and objectives guy if everyone else is solo. But if my team has a plan, I'm going to listen to their calls which are more coordinated than mine. I don't know that, however, if I don't know who is premade. I need to know who is premade not to flame them or troll them but to help them and coordinate with them.

Mojihito6661 votes

Premades are secret for a reason.

Exposing them would expose a lot of riot lies.

The Nidja1 votes
  1. My statement on this point was more of it would be pointless and cause more harm than help, also it is really easy to spot premades by using na.op.gg or looking for matching tags on either team as system tends to match you vs the same.

Let me preface everything I'm about to say. I am a D5 player who got their with 90-95% solo games.

"Because different people are different."

Riot has noted this and has design the system accordingly. They are NOT removing solo as a function from ranked which i feel is very different from your example. I promise you, you can still solo Q you just don't invite anyone and click the Q up button.

On point of this is slowly killing league.

This is making a dent. I agree, but not from Riot's wanting to keep DQ over Solo. It is mostly a mix of terrible communication on Riot's side and the amount of bandwagoning going on which leads to people creating an "elo hell" so to speak of as an excuse for their lack of skill. I also could see with time this helping grow the game and competitive seen as it allow's for more competitive strategies to be played in larger area of ranked play.

On 3 man cap. Yup, it's really dumb.

kDrakari1 votes

They say they already have number 4, but because we don't have number 2 we are forced to take their word for it.

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