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50 Games of Swain

Lykanthar··51 votes·4,052 views

First off, I've been playing Swain since season 2. This post is going to be a critique of the new swain changes and my thoughts based on my play over the last 50 games. In Season 2 I had a 54% win rate with Swain and gradually this improved to 62% in season 5 reaching Plat 1. Sadly, this might make me one of the best swain players in NA. I say "sadly" because I don't consider my self particularly good and if you look on op.gg some of the top 10 Swain players are only in Diamond 3, and most don't even play Swain anymore.

Data Anyway, after 50 games I managed to win 24 and lose 26, giving me a win rate of 48%. Originally I started off playing Swain as I had always done (E max, Catalyst item into Zhonyas then usually Abyssal) but quickly realized I had to change things. I started trying Q max (without much success), eventually changed to AD runes in an attempt to just survive lane and get last hits (also without much success), and finally ended up using a tank build.
My respective win rates are as follows: -10 wins 13 losses on E max AP swain (43%) -6 wins 11 losses on Q max AP swain (35%) -0 wins 1 loss on full AD swain (0%) -8 wins 1 loss on tank Swain (88%)

Successes So my success on this champion came from something I tried out of desperation. After the first 40 games I had realized that there was really no way to safely win lane. I found myself losing and often feeding even to champions that old Swain used to hard counter (such as Yasuo). I figured that since I can't count on winning lane and I obviously can't count on having a jungler to camp for me, the only option left was to not build damage at all.

The build I think I've settled on is now Doran's Shield/Blade or ruby crystal (depending on lane), ROA -> Iceborn -> Spirit Visage -> Randuins against AD and ROA -> Spirit Visage -> Abyssal against AP. Runes are AD marks, Health Seals, MR glyIphs, Armor Quints (fully designed just to survive Swain's terrible lane phase). I'm basically playing a weaker version of Maokai I think, but a weak maokai is still more useful than a feeding Swain.

Besides building tank, AP Swain is still very strong if you can get to mid game team fights even or ahead, and can still snowball well in these circumstances. The obvious problem is getting there. From my experiences, most of the games I won with AP swain were games that I got carried. Only about 10% of games did I feel like I had a significant impact, and this impact was almost always from winning mid game team fights, never due to good laning, roaming or late game.

Failures of AP Swain What I would attribute as the main reason why AP Swain doesn't work currently is that he basically only has one spell now and its entirely unreliable against most champions.

-Swain's E is a short range, single target, damage only spell.... that does no damage. -Swain's W is a zone control only spell with no reliability or wave clear potential. If you actually work out the math on this, considering an average human reaction time of 250-300 ms, an average ping of 50 ms, and a baseline movement speed of 300+, It makes a perfectly placed W with a 0.875 delay and 125 radius theoretically impossible to hit against even average players without setup from another form of CC or a significant mistake made by your opponent. -Which leaves Swain's Q trying to simultaneously be his main source of damage, engage, disengage, CC, and wave clear all in one spell; and its not particularly strong at any of these jobs.

Put this together and you realize that Swain's E adds nothing to his kit anymore. It only serves to restrict his damage potential and increase his risk by forcing him to get within 600 range for otherwise no reason, since his Q and W now have longer range.

Thoughts on PBE buffs The increase to Swain's health growth will definitely help, and makes a lot sense considering my only success on Swain was by specifically building more health. The buff to Swain's ultimate healing should make AP swain slightly more survivable in team fights and better in lane vs tanks, but from my experience the problem I had in lane vs tanks was not surviving, but rather being unable to do any meaningful damage whatsoever. The potential range increase and minion execute on Q is a nice QOL buff, but doesn't really address his problems. It seems to be promoting the removal of any skill, positioning, or thought from Swain's lane phase; Just sit back throw QW and let the spells to all the work I guess...

Overall I like the idea of increasing Swain's base stat line, and would go further to suggest higher AD and Attack speed values as well. Swain is essentially the mage version of a juggernaut so increasing his stats as a counter to his lack of mobility makes sense. What I don't like about the PBE direction that there doesn't seem to be any focus on making Swain's E a useful spell. It is quite possibly one of the most worthless spells in the entire game now, and it serves no useful purpose at all. A single target, damage only spell NEEDS to do damage to justify existing, IMO. If the design goals are to move away from single target point and click abilities (because reasons... and cancer) then make it a skill shot, give it AOE, give it some form of CC or dash to be used as an escape tool, just give it an actual reason to exist in his kit.

My predictions for the current PBE changes: Swain's win rate improves to 48%. AP swain will still not be viable in high ranked or competitive play, and I will still be building tank.

48 Comments

Chaotic Reks13 votes

I read the title and thought this was going somewhere else....

Hullabaloo90710 votes

It would be cool if the e prioritized targets for his ult. I liked tank swain before the changes. If they just buff his q damages and last hitting capability he would be somewhat better off.

Sire Hippington1 votes

don't really see what e prioritized targets for his ult would do, it alsready prioritizes champs and can hit up to 5 targets, so any champion in range will always be targeted.

Hullabaloo9071 votes

I guess I was still thinking about old swain

ImmortalBloodCY2 votes

His E is a single target dot that increases the dmg his other skills do by 20%.

You are talking about his Q that prioritizes champs that his E is on and deals more dmg because of the 20% dmg inc.

Lady Hammerlock6 votes

I fed 3 kills to an enemy Swain he got an assist and a kill from my team i bought item 3211 as Rammus (note i was severely underfarmed) so by the time he was 4/0/1 i finally managed to get spectres cowl,I tried trading with him again,guess what?i out damaged him hard with just item 1029 as my only damage boosting item Even if i was hard bullied in lane by the end of the game i had 1.a better score 2.more CS 3.less deaths 4.actually had all my abilities in affect,sadly the thing that was killing me was his E his Q did nothing at all at basically all stages of the game

Lykanthar4 votes

{quoted}

I fed 3 kills to an enemy Swain he got an assist and a kill from my team i bought item 3211 as Rammus (note i was severely underfarmed) so by the time he was 4/0/1 i finally managed to get spectres cowl,I tried trading with him again,guess what?i out damaged him hard with just item 1029 as my only damage boosting item Even if i was hard bullied in lane by the end of the game i had 1.a better score 2.more CS 3.less deaths 4.actually had all my abilities in affect,sadly the thing that was killing me was his E his Q did nothing at all at basically all stages of the game

Many people remember Swain as a lane bully, and are still trying to play the lane as if he still is. I'll admit, its quite nice to play against, but usually around 5+ minutes into the game they start to realize that they aren't taking any damage and trade back once. I then recall at 30% hp and 0 mana and play the rest of the lane passively and wait for team fights. I wonder how much of Swain's overall win rate is due to bluffing... I know its a portion of my own.

Spoofghoul1 votes

haha bluffing yes thats how i win with Sion ^^

i just try to make my oppoenets suffer and shit their pants as much as possible god forbid they actually allin me. I mean how am i supposed to land any skills they all got 2 second or longer delays on top of being skillshots any idiot can dodge that.

I just spam e walk close detonate shield use q to zone em of cannons etc just get them low then E > R > Q > AA > AA > W > E

just need to poke em to 60%/50% hp before i go in.

I just bluff my opponents early on so they wont go in on me as Sion's early is pretty weak for allins.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

The bluffs are the best. It's probably why Kass is doing better now besides the newer items being big buffs to him. No one is used to playing against him and no one wants to all-in him for.....reasons I guess. It's also the reason I win most top lane match ups as GP (still like midplank more) since they just let me Q them for days despite having the potential to halve me while Q is on CD (happens a lot versus Riven).

Vellich0r1 votes

Early sion is actually a beast, the only time you can all in him is if he plays it wrong or wastes an ability, other than that he has really solid all in fighting.

J Eevo3 votes

the Swain rework is just... plainly speaking, not thought out at all. His kit just straight up lost damage for some reason, across the board. Q being the zone instead of the single target dot(which kept on the enemy longer because of the long leash) should be obvious(it did get a buff recently, but being as unreliable as it is it's either worse or barely equal to the old one while having longer cooldown than the old q even at level 5 W was untouched which is fine... except it still has the old nerf of reduced snare duration, why? E now has the 20% damage amp from the start which should be great, except it lost a LOT of base damage in return for a 20% buff to the ratio. It's the most reliable skill in his kit, dealing the full damage of the dot regardless of what the enemy does, which is one of the reasons it was maxed first(and since we maxed it first we didn't mind that the 20% damage amp was only on it's max level since that's also when we started caring about the rest of the combo).

I feel like it's like the old problem with Yorick when designers released a champion without really any regard to gameplay patterns or the game state, just a champion with a kit, designed withou the idea of whether he'd jungle or top or whatever,he did haunt top for a while after he got buffed and people figured out how to abuse his sustain but that's another story) [zombie-brand-clap]

Chaos6892 votes

So swain was ruined? Yep. More tanks. Fun.

Poorly Dressed2 votes

Give this thread more attention - Rito pls fix Swain :(

KirbyCake2 votes

Swain is just completely useless now, soraka mid/top would be stronger.

Building tank on swain? unfortunately that's all you can do, but swain cannot fulfill the job of a tank. W is still impossible to land against competant opponents, so he practically has no cc.

Any other sustain type tank is just better than swain now, yorick, chogath, etc.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Mfw Vladimir fulfills Swain's "niche" better than Swain since he at least scales with tank stats (health).

Smitemuffin2 votes

I just threw down a post suggesting his ult take Armor and MR in stacks on each strike from the crows. It would give him penetration to help his damage, survivability and some actual utility

Romans 82 votes

I mained Swain for 3 seasons, and was so happy that his kit was not being touched for a long time. He was relatively well balanced for a very long time, and with competent skill, I could definitely do well against almost any midlaner (I exclusively laned in mid-lane and played top lane occasionally). It was a disappointment when they reduced the snare time on his Nevermove. Then it was just despondency once his whole rework was in effect.

How can Riot expect Swain to take advantage of the 20% increase in Torment with his low range attack speed and vulnerability in early lane phases. He's definitely been put in a more vulnerable/disadvantageous position. I wouldn't have a problem if he could take advantage of the changes with skill, but it's almost impossible with this rework kit.

One suggestion I have is to add the grounded debuff to Decrepify, since it's so easy to kite out of. Swain is known for lock-down and control of fights, after all. The other suggestion seems to be to just combine Decrepify and Torment into one skill and give him another ability.

With regards to your build sequence, I find it almost necessary to build Unholy Grail or Morello to upkeep his mana expenditure.

That's two of my mains that Riot ruined with this mage update.

Leopards Ghost1 votes

brutal.

RespectPlus1 votes

Yeah, its weird his E having shorter range The same happens with Brand

Eedat1 votes

Have you tried Sunfire on tank Swain? Seems like it would be a great fit

Lykanthar1 votes

{quoted}

Have you tried Sunfire on tank Swain? Seems like it would be a great fit

I thought about it, but I'm not sure on when to build it. Typically you want to build sunfire as your first item, but Swain has a higher priority on mana. Second item sunfire is a possibility but I like iceborne a lot for the longer ult duration and extra cc.

tainteddaze1 votes

This to me is the best swain build. Roa>Zhoyna>SV>any thing else you want cause it doesn't matter at this point.

Blizzard is Bett1 votes

As another Swain main, I would also look into Ryleis or Liandrys for good AP and health.

Karma Deified1 votes

So can we get insight into how to do AD Swain.

DarkSunSovereign1 votes

E, AA. Is your target dead? 1-No: Wait for E cd, auto more. 2-No: Wait for E cd, auto more.

Photos of Ghosts1 votes

Question - do you ply him mainly top? Did you before the update? Does the hotfix feel better?

Lykanthar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Photos of Ghosts,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4BF5xjgM,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2016-05-12T10:06:11.595+0000)

Question - do you ply him mainly top? Did you before the update? Does the hotfix feel better?

I have been playing him almost exclusively top since the rework. Past seasons I played him in both roles with a preference towards mid. The W nerfs at the start of the season hurt his mid play a lot as its his only tool to engage on long range mages. Choosing which position to play is sort of a catch 22. In mid he is much safer from ganks, but the long range poke champions absolutely destroy him. In top lane you have much easier matchups but are much more likely to be ganked. I would prefer to play mid, but I think he's only playable as a counter pick, whereas top is easier to blind pick. The hotfix does feel better, but doesn't affect his power much at all.

TaoistMaster1 votes

Why not FH after ROA instead of ibg?

Id try roa, fh, SV, zhonyas. thats 40% cdr, pretty tanky, and a decent amount of AP.

if it is for the slow i don't see the point. he has his Q and snare, so might as well invest in more CDR and armor.

Lykanthar1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Twigg Fed Gracie,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4BF5xjgM,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2016-05-12T12:18:45.995+0000)

Why not FH after ROA instead of ibg?

Id try roa, fh, SV, zhonyas. thats 40% cdr, pretty tanky, and a decent amount of AP.

if it is for the slow i don't see the point. he has his Q and snare, so might as well invest in more CDR and armor.

To be honest, I'm still throwing darts at the tank item list to see what works. I've tried FH after ROA but it only seems worth it if you get benefit from the aura. The slow from IBG is valuable because of how easy it is to avoid/miss Swain's Q and W. I'm also going back to the GLP-800 instead of ROA because the active has more utility than any of Swain's spells, and the extra 200 HP from ROA is less valuable on a tank build than an AP build. Perhaps GLP into FH is best.

Smitemuffin1 votes

When I used to play Tank Swain pre-update, I went tear > Sunfire Cape > Visage > Randuins

Now I would do tear > Sunfire > Visage > Warmogs > Frozen Heart/Iceborne

You'll have max CDR and good mana

TaoistMaster1 votes

i saw you using GLP.

GLP vs ROD seems like a preference call if you like the actice and can get use out of it.

but yeah, FH and SV after those 2 would be optimal.

FH isn't just an amazing aura (possibly best in the game) you get a crap top of armor ( i think highest armor for a single item in game but i might be wrong) mana, and 20% cdr when you finish it.

swain loves those stats. New SV healing more now, as well as more CDR HP MR..

I am liking this tank build in theory and have to test it

ROD's HP really like the armor from frozen heart, and a bigger mana pool is a happier bird man

SeveredKidsFeet1 votes

I'm glad somoene posted this thread. Swain was the BIGGEST disappointment in the mid-season mage update. If anyone deserved a major rework it was him. The delay on his W root is ridiculous and then they nerf (FOR NO REASON) his W in patch 5.24, they gave you ZERO incentive to level up his E now. Since it gives 20% increased damage at level 1 there is never any point to max it first or even second, but good luck trying to land a E then Q+W in lane. It doesn't happen to even the slowest player. His ult also leaves much to be desired. His ult does AT MAX RANK does 90 + (20%AP) per second. Combine that with a mana cost of 25+5 each second. After 5 seconds you've dealt 450 + (100%) AP for a mana cost of 175. Maokai and alistar laugh at you while real mages do that much damage in 1 second with half the mana cost. FeelsSwainMan

Smart Kitty1 votes

Thanks for making this post, as one of the only other players who plays alot of Swain. I was at a complete loss of what to do now. It's hard to find current guides and videos, since so few people actually play swain. If you're playing him tank, do you take him in the top lane now? Who would you advise not picking him against if I really want to play him.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Not a Swain expert in the slightest but with the changes I'd probably take him top over mid (there's more mobility and poke mid) and only against non-lane bullies to avoid his poor laning phase (Malphite and other tanks not named Mao or Naut). He MIGHT do well against Riven and such due to her not having a target gapcloser if you space correctly.

FläshFourthShot1 votes

Now I'm not going to claim to be good at this game, but I loved to play Swain, and he was my go to mid laner. I feel like he's really weak now due mainly I think to the q being much less reliable, as it's his only real source of damage now, even though it's really easy to just walk out of. I'm not sure how I feel about his ult changing. I've found it harder to use in trading because the birds only attack a target once per second or something, and reduced healing, making it feel like more of a waste of mana than anything else. It kind of sucks that my favorite bird man doesn't feel nearly as powerful, but these are just my thoughts.

Mazariamonti1 votes

I was able to make a swain top look silly by using huhi Aurelion sol strats, that's when you know swain is in a bad place.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Hmm? What strats?

Mazariamonti1 votes

Use all your mana to clear waves as fast as possible, recall, then use the e to get back in lane without really losing anything, sometimes gaining a cs lead, even. You end up recalling like six or seven times before ten minutes.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Bruhhhhhh. That's hilarious.

Conturbatio1 votes

I really like the title

TallyZrg1 votes

Good data! Have an upvote my friend, you have given really good insight on the aftermath of Swain's Mage tweak.

https://media.giphy.com/media/BQAk13taTaKYw/giphy.gif

SGT Entrails1 votes

I find that these changes made him slightly better against his previous weaknesses(long-ish range poke), and made him nearly unplayable vs champions that he was very good against(assassins such as zed, fizz, and lb), because of how mobile they are and because his q and w are so ridiculously unreliable, and the only reliable damage spell he has received a nerf to its base damage. I really don't understand the idea behind these changes. Perhaps if there was a punishment mechanic added to his Q for leaving its range, or a grounding effect on his W. But right now he just can't do anything versus champions with any mobility.

Romans 81 votes

[{quoted}](name=SGT Entrails,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=4BF5xjgM,comment-id=0017,timestamp=2016-05-13T22:43:43.670+0000)

I find that these changes made him slightly better against his previous weaknesses(long-ish range poke), and made him nearly unplayable vs champions that he was very good against(assassins such as zed, fizz, and lb), because of how mobile they are and because his q and w are so ridiculously unreliable, and the only reliable damage spell he has received a nerf to its base damage. I really don't understand the idea behind these changes. Perhaps if there was a punishment mechanic added to his Q for leaving its range, or a grounding effect on his W. But right now he just can't do anything versus champions with any mobility.

They changed him because they wanted to make his kit more skill-dependent and less point and click. What they failed to realize is that, even though a lot of his abilities were point and click, there were other aspects of the champion that requires skill to execute, such as his low mobility and medium attack range and that his one skill ability, Nevermove, can be actually quite difficult to land and already had a nerf to the snare time (which was really unjustified, given those previous weaknesses and the strengths given to most of his mage counterparts). So they they wanted to change Q and E so that his play style would require more skill, but I don't believe they actually thoroughly tested the balance or kit cohesiveness/synergy with the changes. He is basically almost ineffective at this point.

Lord Swain1 votes

alright since I literally play swain 24/7 I will put my 2 cents in. First off the changes were made, because, almost like vlad, playing against a swain was a stats fight. If you were a melee champ you were screwed no matter what. The only thing you could do was roam or hope your jungler does a good gank pre 6. If not you had no way of farming without getting hit in the face. So yes I did love doing that to Yasuos' but I do understand why the would make the q how it is now. Also to help his horrendous farming.

secondly I do not know how you can say e (torment) is useless. Yes his base dmg is weak but its at 100% ap ratio so late game it does 500+ dmg. Also the reason its there is to "AMPLIFY" your other spells dmg. At rank 1 it gives 20% damage increase. So that makes everything else you throw at that target deal more dmg (even actives and auto attack). So its still something worth having.

Also I do not know how your q does no dmg. The dmg on it is great, plus it is a second longer. Yes the tether isnt as long as it was before but because it lasts longer it deals more dmg the longer they stay in the zone. (with the help of your snare and the hextech its easy to do) Also its great at farming! the double dmg to minions helps a lot. just drop q near the range minions and all 3 usually die. Also its still easy to harass and win lane with it. If you play top lane (which I usually do now with him) when they come up to farm drop q and it will prioritize them then after they leave the q goes to farm for you and you get both harass and farming out of it.

the only thing that does bug me is the heal on his ult. Making the heal now every second off the same enemy instead of .5 does effect how fast he heals. Also due to the fact he is in the front lines and tanks are there, the heals are vastly reduced so ,Yes again I do understand why they did the change, the fact that he is squishy without the constant heal reduces his effectiveness and ability to stay in battles long (even though he is supposed to be a sustain champ). So I am glad the change to the healing will be nice.

Though glass cannon ap isnt the best option at all, AP hybrid swain is viable. Some items do vary from match to match but there usually like this (hextech glp, spirits, sorc boots, abysall scepter, rylais, and zhonyas) (hextech glp, spirits, sorc boots, Liandry, rylais, and zhonyas) (hextech glp, rabadon, sorc boots, void, rylais, and zhonyas)(if i get fed in lane hard. usually try to go more defensive hybrid ap)

XnightmareXxx1 votes

i have nothing to say other than that you don't know what you're talking about

if you want win with new swain you're garbage

if you couldn't win with old swain you're a joke

OurLestrade1 votes

Played my first PvP game as the new Swain today. Every Q I threw? People could just walk past it and that was 90% of my damage gone for 10 seconds :P

Lykanthar1 votes

Just going to leave a bit of a follow up here.

My Tank Swain win rate has leveled off to less than 50% now, which has sort of solidified my opinions on Swain now.

AP Swain is a high risk, low reward, moderate impact champion. It is incredibly easy to lose lane 1v1 and you have no way to deal with enemy jungle pressure effectively. Even if you do get a lead by significantly and constantly out playing your opponent, you have no real way to keep the snowball rolling if they chose to play safe. The only moderate impact you have is mid-game team fights, but this requires cooperation from you team.

Tank Swain is a medium risk, low reward, low impact champion. Building tank lets you minimize the risk of losing lane or getting ganked out of the game, but detracts from your mid game impact significantly.

Any success I get from tank Swain is due to me intentionally trying to be irrelevant. I have very little impact on whether my team wins or loses, which, unfortunately, is a good thing as Swain. Playing AP Swain is a liability; you are more likely to feed and cause a loss than to carry your team for a win. So the EV on tank Swain just ends up being higher. Its not fun though.

Current Swain is possibly one of the most mechanically and fundamentally difficult champion to play at a high level (despite having a reasonable skill floor). Even the slightest misuse of Q or W or the smallest positional mistake can have drastic consequences against skilled (or more often in my case blindly aggressive) opponents. Even when you use your skills and position well you are still under a constant requirement for perfect last hitting with weak auto attacks to not fall behind in minion gold. Mashing QWR in hopes of getting the last hits and running out of mana after 3 waves just doesn't cut it at plat+. Its no coincidence that Swain's lowest win rate today is in Plat. The skill required to farm well and not get killed on Swain would get you to diamond on any other champion, whereas in gold and below you don't need to farm well because your opponent wont either.

Despite my almost masochistic determination to make Swain work, It has become a lost cause. I'm getting an increasing number of team mates who say they are going to report me (illegitimately) just for doing poorly. I'm also getting an increasing number of entirely legitimate reports because playing Swain is turning me into a very salty top laner. I've realized that I do not have the mechanical fundamentals necessary to play current Swain at a plat level. So I'm going back to playing easier champions like Lee Sin before I get demoted to gold.

I hope Swain gets reworked (or reverted) some time in the future, because the PBE buffs (even if they fix his overall win rate), don't seem to want to fix his fundamentally broken and unreliable kit.

Lord Swain1 votes

Well again build him hybrid. For the most part I'm winning every game with him. The games I lose tend to happen when other lane feed or I get camped.

Use hextech gulp, sorc boots, zhonyas, relaid, spirit and abysall (abysall or Liandry depending on Match up)

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