Double Doran's Rings instead of any mana item.

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a39··10 votes·5,283 views

With the nerf to item 3174 and price increase for item 3165 , I find that rushing these two items are absolutely dragging your power strike back. While item 3070 stays a decent mana sustaining item, it offers no early power for you to out trade your opponent, forcing you to aim farming or hope for a gank, otherwise you wouldn't get the chance to snowball as soon as possible.

I suggest building item 1056 item 1056 instead. Each one offers solid mana regeneration, which is much more useful than percentage mana regeneration before Lv9, where item 3174 starts regenerating more than item 1056 item 1056 . Two of them is enough for sustaining mana, especially if the champ excels at wave clearing at a low mana cost such as Annie Brand Xerath Ziggs , because the least mana you spend on killing minions, the more mana you get from doran's ring passive. The advantages are:

  1. You enjoy faster mana regeneration, more than grail and morello.
  2. You get the early AP for trading.
  3. You get more AP for easier wave-clearing, which gives you more gold and ganking space.
  4. Jump straight to power strike with item 3089 item 3135 item 3020 since you don't have to worry about mana itemization.

The downside, however, is you don't get CDR until mid game, so utility mages with long cooldown such as Lux Morgana Zyra actually don't work. That's why they are fucked up when item 3165 item 3174 are fucked up. They are desperate for CDR items. The best build I can think of for them are item 3158 + two item 1056. For poke and burst oriented mages such as Xerath Annie , they don't need much CDR anyway. These champions better stay away from item 3165 item 3174 early, they would only drag their back.

In addition, I read an article somewhere on board with detailed calculation comparing item 1056 with item 3174. item 3174 is only more useful after Lv9, which means the only reason for building it early is for the MR(which was nerfed from 45 to 25 before), while morello is now too expensive to consider building early.

I have had a lot of success by building double item 1056 and then straight to item 3089 item 3135 item 3020 in platium ranked games.

Some good points in comments:

{quoted}

The 20% CDR itself can be considered a huge boon, but the mana regeneration of morellonomicon scales with your base regeneration, which means at lower levels its actually quite bad. Combine this CDR with lower base levels of regeneration, and you'll actually be going oom faster with a morellonomicon than you would with 2 doran rings and a needlessly large rod.

There is still merit to rushing a rod on many occasions. Early on the dorans will give you equal or better regeneration than a morello due to their CSing passive. Furthermore, your mana is more efficient with a needlessly large rod than it is with morellonomicon parts due to the increased AP. So you're hitting harder, albeit less frequently, but you have similar regeneration meaning you can sustain your damage more easily resulting in more damage output over longer periods of time. It requires a difference in playstyles to take advantage of this, since with CDR you would want to engage in sustained battles while without the CDR you would want to disengage after using your abilities.

The last thing you should consider is the difficulty in accessing a needlessly large rod. If you back with 2000 gold, it's better to buy the rod+dorans because of opportunity cost. It's easy to fill in the pieces of a morellonomicon whenever you back with small amounts of gold, but backing with 1600+ gold is relatively uncommon and therefore you should take advantage of the opportunity when you have it.

29 Comments

UnderatedNoob3 votes

Agreed . But it's power spike not power strike.

mirAcIe1 votes

OH GOD. POWER STRIKE! That's how it was called. I was trying to remember the very first skill you got on melee fighters in Lineage 2. Thanks.

Strident2 votes

Double Doran's are effective when you want to go for something other than Morellonomicon. Athene's is a very poor item at the moment, but Morellonomicon is actually effective. It grants 100% base mana regeneration.

To give you context on what this means, it is worth 3 Doran's Ring at level 9. At level 18, it will grant nearly 20 MP/5, which is 6 Doran's Rings (I account for the missing mana regen by assuming the 4 mana per CS makes up for it)

To give you context on what 20 MP/5 means, Athene's granted 10 MP/5 before the change to base mana regeneration modifiers.

tl;dr Morellonomicon is OP atm, better than double doran's if you actually want to build it first.

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a392 votes

{quoted}

Double Doran's are effective when you want to go for something other than Morellonomicon. Athene's is a very poor item at the moment, but Morellonomicon is actually effective. It grants 100% base mana regeneration.

To give you context on what this means, it is worth 3 Doran's Ring at level 9. At level 18, it will grant nearly 20 MP/5, which is 6 Doran's Rings (I account for the missing mana regen by assuming the 4 mana per CS makes up for it)

To give you context on what 20 MP/5 means, Athene's granted 10 MP/5 before the change to base mana regeneration modifiers.

tl;dr Morellonomicon is OP atm, better than double doran's if you actually want to build it first.

It is only effective after Lv9, which is exactly why you build it later on. Early game you still need doran rings for mana.

Strident1 votes

{quoted}

It is only effective after Lv9, which is exactly why you build it later on. Early game you still need doran rings for mana.

Mid laners typically finish Morellonomicon near level 9, often times over. Rushing Morellonomicon is very effective, due to its low gold cost, high efficiency, beneficial stats, and great build path. This is why in upper elos, Azir, Leblanc, Xerath, and Syndra players will rush Morellonomicon.

For champions with more accuentuated mana problems like Anivia, Karthus, and Swain however, these champions may have to rely on RoA or Tear.

The short version is that for champions that rely on spamming abilities and have mild mana problems, Morellonomicon is extremely effective.

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a393 votes

{quoted}

Mid laners typically finish Morellonomicon near level 9, often times over. Rushing Morellonomicon is very effective, due to its low gold cost, high efficiency, beneficial stats, and great build path. This is why in upper elos, Azir, Leblanc, Xerath, and Syndra players will rush Morellonomicon.

For champions with more accuentuated mana problems like Anivia, Karthus, and Swain however, these champions may have to rely on RoA or Tear.

The short version is that for champions that rely on spamming abilities and have mild mana problems, Morellonomicon is extremely effective.

Not after the cost increase.

Strident2 votes

{quoted}

Not after the cost increase.

Consider that Morellonomicon is 2300 gold. The largest simultaneous payment you must make is the combine cost at 880 gold, and the amount of money Deathcap costs is 3300, whose largest simultaneous payment is 1600 gold.

On the same back at 7 minutes with around 50 cs, you can afford the Needlessly Large Rod and maybe a pot or two. Unfortunately, you can't afford your Doran's Ring here.

Comparing total costs, if you only buy the Morellonomicon, you only need to buy with 2300 gold. If you buy the NLR and a Doran's Ring, you play 2000 gold. If I buy tier two boots, I pay 3400 gold compared to finishing the Deathcap at 3700 gold.

For mages like Leblanc, Syndra, and Xerath, the former is more valuable. 15 Magic Penetration in the early game negates 15% of your target's effective HP. In other words, since it also affects your base damages, it adds comparable damage to a Deathcap combined with the 80 AP of the Morellonomicon. You also come with 20% CDR, a Grievous Wounds passive, and the mana regeneration of an additional 3 Doran's Rings.

Of course, the champion has to value mana regen and 20% CDR in order for this to be the better build, but for the champions I mentioned plus Azir, this is definitely true.

On the other hand, champions like Kassadin are better off building RoA, which does not contradict what I'm saying.

Drunk Rummate3 votes

{quoted}

For mages like Leblanc, Syndra, and Xerath, the former is more valuable. 15 Magic Penetration in the early game negates 15% of your target's effective HP. In other words, since it also affects your base damages, it adds comparable damage to a Deathcap combined with the 80 AP of the Morellonomicon. You also come with 20% CDR, a Grievous Wounds passive, and the mana regeneration of an additional 3 Doran's Rings.

You're correct for the most part, but I'd like to point out a few errors in this passage.

First: 15 magic penetration is not 15% of a target's effective HP. Most mid champions have base 30 MR. With magic resist glyphs that would be 42 (which would lessen the effect), but most mages take AP glyphs so I'll ignore that. With 9 magic penetration marks that puts you here: 100/122 = 82% effective damage, with sorcs it would be 100/107 = 93% effective damage. So it would be 11% with generous rounding. Still a big deal, but I'm just nit picky and I like to correct stuff like that.

Second: The 20% CDR itself can be considered a huge boon, but the mana regeneration of morellonomicon scales with your base regeneration, which means at lower levels its actually quite bad. Combine this CDR with lower base levels of regeneration, and you'll actually be going oom faster with a morellonomicon than you would with 2 doran rings and a needlessly large rod.

There is still merit to rushing a rod on many occasions. Early on the dorans will give you equal or better regeneration than a morello due to their CSing passive. Furthermore, your mana is more efficient with a needlessly large rod than it is with morellonomicon parts due to the increased AP. So you're hitting harder, albeit less frequently, but you have similar regeneration meaning you can sustain your damage more easily resulting in more damage output over longer periods of time. It requires a difference in playstyles to take advantage of this, since with CDR you would want to engage in sustained battles while without the CDR you would want to disengage after using your abilities.

The last thing you should consider is the difficulty in accessing a needlessly large rod. If you back with 2000 gold, it's better to buy the rod+dorans because of opportunity cost. It's easy to fill in the pieces of a morellonomicon whenever you back with small amounts of gold, but backing with 1600+ gold is relatively uncommon and therefore you should take advantage of the opportunity when you have it.

Strident1 votes

{quoted}

You're correct for the most part, but I'd like to point out a few errors in this passage.

First: 15 magic penetration is not 15% of a target's effective HP. Most mid champions have base 30 MR. With magic resist glyphs that would be 42, but most mages take AP glyphs so I'll ignore that. With 9 magic penetration marks that puts you here: 100/122 = 82% effective damage, with sorcs it would be 100/107 = 93% effective damage. So it would be 11%. Still a big deal, but I'm just nit picky and I like to correct stuff like that.

Second: The 20% CDR itself can be considered a huge boon, but the mana regeneration of morellonomicon scales with your base regeneration, which means at lower levels its actually quite bad. Combine this CDR with lower base levels of regeneration, and you'll actually be going oom faster with a morellonomicon than you would with 2 doran rings and a needlessly large rod.

There is still merit to rushing a rod on many occasions. Early on the dorans will give you equal or better regeneration than a morello due to their CSing passive. Furthermore, your mana is more efficient with a needlessly large rod than it is with morellonomicon parts due to the increased AP. So you're hitting harder, albeit less frequently, but you have similar regeneration meaning you can sustain your damage more easily resulting in more damage output over longer periods of time. It requires a difference in playstyles to take advantage of this, since with CDR you would want to engage in sustained battles while without the CDR you would want to disengage after using your abilities.

The last thing you should consider is the difficulty in accessing a needlessly large rod. If you back with 2000 gold, it's better to buy the rod+dorans because of opportunity cost. It's easy to fill in the pieces of a morellonomicon whenever you back with small amounts of gold, but backing with 1600+ gold is relatively uncommon and therefore you should take advantage of the opportunity when you have it.

In regards to effective HP, I cite my usage of effective HP from the following page:

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_resistance#Stacking_magic_resistance

tl;dr the amount of damage you do is changed percentage wise, but relative to the amount of effective HP a champion calculated based on the way MR is applied, it is a linear amount.

The idea of rushing rod first is not wrong innately. As I said, Morellonomicon is good on champions that can value its stats.

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a391 votes

{quoted}

The idea of rushing rod first is not wrong innately. As I said, Morellonomicon is good on champions that can value its stats.

This phrase pretty much tells me you didn't understand Nasreth's points. You point is only valid for champions who scale inefficiently with AP, yet favor CDR. In this case, Morello is better because rod provides not much damage. However, I doubt any exists.

Strident1 votes

-_-

No, I did not misunderstand Nasreth. You are in fact misinterpreting the argument. The case that Nasreth makes is that backing with 1600 should merit the Needlessly Large Rod for the opportunity cost of being able to afford it entirely without having to do it again.

His second point: I've already mentioned that at level 9, the amount of mana regeneration is 10 MP/5, which I mentioned in context is the same as previous Athene's. Doran's Ring provides a base mana regeneration of 3 MP/5. If you cs perfectly, you may gain a conditional 4 MP/5 each ring.

In other words, you get at best a 7 MP/5 with the extra Doran's Ring, because (I won't count the cannon because you aren't gonna get 100% cs rate) 6 minions spawn per 30 seconds, and you gain 4 MP per minion.

On Ahri, if you are level 3, you have 7.2 MP/5. You definitely buy Morellonomicon after level 3.

The idea of Needlessly Large Rod granting more damage is also conditional. When you have CDR, you spam more spells. In fact, what this means is that your hit rate increases, which scales with your base damage. CDR also affects long cooldown ultimates which weaken a champion while they are down. On champions like Xerath and Lissandra, you have ready mana management passives. Then there's also the idea of blue buff.

What my previous post was saying is that you can in fact rush NLR. I said this is a valid build path. However, I clearly show to you here the merits of Morellonomicon, how it is clearly superior to a Doran's Ring (I don't count the other because you start it anyway), how it has an ideal build path with efficient stats for champions that can use CDR (most of them), and this is why you see professionals building Morellonomicon every game.

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a391 votes

Really good points.

FarRockBF1 votes

{quoted} tl;dr Morellonomicon is OP atm, better than double doran's if you actually want to build it first.

If you back with 600 gold, much better buy dorans and pots over that mana regen item. You get additional AP and HP with dorans - amazing for early game.

Strident3 votes

{quoted}

If you back with 600 gold, much better buy dorans and pots over that mana regen item. You get additional AP and HP with dorans - amazing for early game.

There's actually another solution; don't back with only 600 gold. For context on how fast a player can make gold, if you have 50 cs at 7 minutes, you have enough gold to purchase a BF sword: 1550 gold. This is enough to afford Forbidden Idol, Fiendish Codex, two pots, and a green ward.

This is a very tempting build path, because unlike Athene's you get the most desirable stat (20% CDR) up front for a very low cost.

ABlueQuaker1 votes

I've always built double doran's ring on my ap champions unless I need a doran's shield in the early game. After that, though, I still at least get one before I go onto my first core item.

FarRockBF1 votes

I'm one of those weird Annie players who go straight glass cannon.

VS AD > item 1076 >item 1076 item 1001 >item 3020 >item 3157 > item 3089 >item 3135 > Whatever

AS AP > item 1076 >item 1076 item 1001 >item 3020 >item 3089 >item 3135 >Whatever

iainB851 votes

Double item 1056 is good, but, depending on the champion it really sets you up for a zero CDR build. Some champs (like Ahri for example) really want CDR to have their ults up as much as possible.

Drunk Rummate1 votes

item 3028 is still a good early buy versus aggressive APs. dont underestimate the magic resist.

I agree that it's better to go double item 1056 ->item 3108 over an early item 3114 if you are building Morellonomicon though. And it's still not terrible to go double dorans if you are building chalice, but that delays your midgame pretty heavily. Chalice still gives excellent mana regen late game. It outdoes morellonomicon when you're missing about 45% of your mana since they buffed it to 2% missing.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

item 3165 is still unbelievably good.

item 1056 item 1056 item 3165 is the proper start on many, many mages.

Acidic Puddle1 votes

I learned to play Fizz from a streamer named FateFalls and so i always build item 1076 item 1056 on him.

Lao Fu the Tiger1 votes

If you're REALLY starving, just grab 3 Doran's Rings!

It sounds ridiculous, but you'll never run out of mana, you get a decent amount of tankiness, and ~50 AP. Then you can build either item 3174 or item 3165 by starting with the item 3108 rather than the mana regen side.

Chessburger1 votes

Fingers crossed that they don't nerf doran's ring now... It's the only mana regen item worth its salt right now and they've been on an anti mana mage spree lately.

Darkwind1 votes

or just get item 3010 . do people even realize this item exists anymore? it's stupidly strong in lane if mana and sustain matter at all in the lane.

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a391 votes

{quoted}

or just get item 3010 . do people even realize this item exists anymore? it's stupidly strong in lane if mana and sustain matter at all in the lane.

It's just too expensive.

Darkwind1 votes

1200g? You're kidding, rite? If you farm 1/2 decently, you can buy it on 1st back no problem.

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a391 votes

{quoted}

1200g? You're kidding, rite? If you farm 1/2 decently, you can buy it on 1st back no problem.

At the same time, you sacrifice any AP and CDR. And it builds into a RoA, which is not efficient for most mages.

By expensive, I mean inefficient. 1200 may not be much, but it's not worthwhile.

Darkwind1 votes

Roa gives the same amount of AP as morello, granted not quite as quickly. Its mana is better, by far, at all stages of the game. Since blue buff gives %max mana regen, it is also stronger in combo with blue buff. It's stronger as catalyst than any comparable options for the lane phase. No cdr is a valid complaint, but i'd say roa is preferable to the other mana options on a LOT of mages atm. examples include Malzahar Swain Anivia Annie Azir Brand Diana Cassiopeia Galio Gragas Heimerdinger Kassadin Lissandra Morgana Ryze Lulu Karthus Karma

So if you're complaining that "most mages" don't benefit from it, what youre really complaining is that most poke mages don't benefit from it. Ziggs Zilean Xerath Syndra Orianna Lux Ahri Nidalee And even in that list, I'd not rule out building Roa on ahri after her changes. As for the others, i'd prefer tear over cdr options on lux and nid 50% of the time, and zilean builds both cdr and tear.

If your complaint is about the AP during the lane phase, you don't need it. The extra health and hp regen will let you trade just as effectively as ap from rings would. I'd prefer a catalyst>roa build over a 2x dorans>deathcap build any day.

f00G3MxfPP1 votes

Sorc shoes is wayyyyy too good to build over lucidity boots. 15 magic pen is probably the best secondary effect out of any of the boot items.

Vertanium1 votes

Why do I fear that next patch, they will change dorans mana regen to make it 1, or increase the cost to 440 (or both). Either way, every time I see something benifical for mages it gets nerfed next patch. Riot just needs to accept that if you pay for a mana item, you should get more than just mana. Especially with champs who dont have mana problems, or they built build tear or ROA dominating almost everywhere but ADC.

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