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Maybe it's time to change Lee Sin.

AdorablSlaughter·2/1/2015, 7:39:39 AM·14 votes·951 views

Okay, we get that you can't nerf him. We understand. We get that you can't balance him. We understand. But we also get that every single jungle nerf we see has its reasoning as "Lee Sin and (whoever else) can exploit this too easily." The problem is that all the junglers are getting fucked because Lee Sin and (someone) is always always always out of line, too strong, too safe. The possibility, here, is that Lee Sin is the one who is too strong. Lee Sin is the one who is too safe. Here's what I propose. Lee Sin's Resonating Strike and Safeguard gain a 20% speed bonus. However, they can no longer pass through terrain. If their target is blocked by terrain, the ability cannot be cast. Cripple deals 20% more damage to jungle monsters, giving him a 20% bonus to jungle monsters affected by Cripple during its duration. Lemme tell you why this is a good idea. 1: Strategic choices for opponents. Lee can no longer put himself anywhere and escape instantly if he has a ward/sees one. Sometimes, he might even have to flash. Other champions can back him into a literal corner, and actually see rewards for chasing the slippery noodle down. Additionally, player created terrain now has an actual strategic value against Lee, making trapping him feel satisfying and game changing. 2: Jungle clear time. This gives Lee a disadvantage to his clear time, so we've compensated for that with a passive jungle bonus on Cripple, allowing him to stay thematically sound and giving him a compensatory boost that really allows him to make up some time on one of his weakest areas. The buff is large, so as to allow Lee to maintain pace with other junglers, since his ganking suffers somewhat from this change. 3: Strategic choices for Lee Sin. This makes his decision between ganking and farming a choice made by Lee, not his kit. Additionally, the increased rapidity on his movement means he can get in and out with greater speed than before, making for flashier, sexier play. Rewards for hitting his q are instantaneous and even more gratifying, and coupled with a rapid w mean he can towerdive with safety, so long as he makes good choices. 4: Freedom for the balance team. With Lee constrained by terrain, his strategic options become less automatic, and his escapes less absolute. This means the balance team can finally play around with the untouchable behemoth for the first time in forever, see what they can do to make him really shiny.

So the change isn't huge, but it is huge. What do you guys think?

8 Comments

DrCyanide2/1/2015, 7:57:35 AM6 votes

Lee Sin's mobility is, for better or worse, key to him. It's what players know him for, both those going against him and those playing him.

Personally, I think there are a few things Lee Sin's kit could lose and still keep him feeling like Lee Sin. Note that I don't play him, and I'm not saying all of these things need to be removed, simply that they could be removed:

  • Shield
  • Spellvamp
  • Lifesteal
  • Slow
  • True Sight

I'd try and play around with removing/replacing those aspects of his kit.

AdorablSlaughter2/1/2015, 7:56:34 AM2 votes

It's not gutting him. It's a buff to certain playstyles and removing what makes him problematic. His ult is also a pretty important section of his kit (though I legitimately would prefer to make it a simple execute, like it actually functions now, rather than a huge-ass cc bomb and an execute, but w/e.).

Killer X 122/1/2015, 8:35:54 AM2 votes

I do dislike that less cool things happen in the jungle because a certain champion exists.

Purodyuusaa2/1/2015, 8:15:57 AM1 votes

I don't know if I agree with your proposals per say, but I do agree Lee Sin is too overloaded and needs toned down. He's been systematically choking the jungle for over two years now.

SEKAI2/1/2015, 7:47:03 AM1 votes

Rework his W, remove his self hop also or at least get rid off the ward hopping part.

Or at the very least, rework that ulti, it's single target, high scaling, high base damage, low cd, no cost, knockup AND back AND the effect applies too all of the target hit on the path AND if sends target flying a long range. I call god dam forkin' BS.

If you don't wanna gut him that's fine, the gut while waiting for resolution style of yours isn't the best way anyway. But first

  1. Have consistency on your balance policy. If you wanna do it for Lee, do it for everybody.
  2. He really has too much, and skill cap is true an excuse for versatility which I can totally see, is NOT an excuse for extra power. That is never a good thing from ANY design point of view.

He needs to actually rely on a team to play instead of just being a 1 man army, it's stupid.

iMaB3AST2/1/2015, 3:58:54 PM1 votes

Simple balance, buff his base damage and nerf his scalings.

AdorablSlaughter2/1/2015, 8:01:29 AM1 votes

But I'm not removing his mobility. I'm making it conditional. In fact, his mobility not only remains, but is statistically increased, though confined in its application. I think the biggest problem with him right now, and the reason he remains impossible to balance, is that if you make him weaker, he's able to dash about but not do anything, and if you make him stronger, he's able to dash about and be unstoppable at the same time. Now, we're making his dashing about come with choices and consequences, rules and decisions. He can't just in and out with impunity without restriction. Keep in mind, for the duration of most teamfights, this won't touch him at all. Addendum; I'll add the qualifier I meant to, and say they don't cast if they can't cast, rather than wasting them if you hit a wall.

SEKAI2/1/2015, 8:04:49 AM1 votes

I figured I will simply create another post to just solely comment on the thread so my first post won't be a gigantic mess of stuff.

  1. I do not agree with your Q proposal, I think it's something of his Original iconic move and should be kept.
  2. I am all for removing ward hop on him, he isn't like Jax or Kat who only has 1 escape, he has 3 and that's more than enough.
  3. Fast clear imo can be kept because he is meant to be geared for early game so taking it away would really be gutting him so imo No.
  4. This part I disagree, a champion should NOT be given absolute control over everything just because the player has a functioning brain and twitchy fingers. Never should a champion where his base line is no longer about surviving and killing but about how to outplay the opponent just because the kit is so massive it allows that to happen, that is not fair, at all. Garen can't outplay, is it because he is so dumb? Not because he can't as he is restricted by his own kit? LoL isn't a 2D fighter it's a simplified RTS where you control only a portion of the team so the strategy becomes working with someone else. Having a champion that is stronger than everyone by default is not right. Learning curve and high skill cap should always mean more flexibility instead of more power.
  5. I agree his mistake recovery NEEDS to be tuned down, because as it stands his kits encourages bad decisions making and he always gets away not because he does but because he can.
  6. Rework his ulti.