Here's how to fix Yasuo's Wind Wall!

GigglingAngel·Feb 11, 2015·6 votes·3,458 views

Wind Wall is, undeniably, one of the most broken skills in the game when used correctly. It's a support's dream ability, and the support that did get an equivalent to it, Braum, has an arguably lesser form of it. However, we can look at Braum's version, and use the mechanics in that to help balance Wind Wall. Here's a refresher on what Braum's does: The damage reduction is increased to 100% for the first source of champion damage that would be reduced, though this does not negate any other effects of the attack. Afterwards, there's a damage reduction; DAMAGE REDUCTION: 30 / 32.5 / 35 / 37.5 / 40%.

Why don't we make Wind Wall similar? It would completely block the first attack (even the CC, since Yasuo's not the target being hit by it), but afterwards it would not block any other attack going through out. However, it would lower the damage, similar to Braum's skill. Heck, I don't see any reason to not keep the same numbers: 30 / 32.5 / 35 / 37.5 / 40%.

Now, I'm not trying to say it solely needs a nerf. It could also use some bits of buffs to help compensate for the change. Here's what I got suggest as compensation: WALL WIDTH: 300 / 350 / 400 / 450 / 500 changed to 400 / 425 / 450 / 475 / 500 COOLDOWN: 26 / 24 / 22 / 20 / 18 changed to 22 / 21 / 20 / 19 / 18 DURATION: 3 / 3.25 / 3.5 / 3.75 / 4 would be kept the same.

All of these changes would cause Yasuo to have a lil bit of an easier time in lane (something he could really use) by being able to use a wider wall more often, but now the wall won't be so overpowering by allowing continual skill shots to at least have some effect, even if diminished. Anything that would now normally be blocked would go through the damage reduction instead after the first champion attack makes contact. The trade-off for the easier lane is a much more bearable late game ability that (currently) absolutely destroys ranged-based teams (something a carry really shouldn't have).

26 Comments

The DJ Pon3Feb 11, 20154 votes

This would be amazing for me - a Vel'Koz main. Literally all his normal abilities are projectile skillshots, which when you have half your lane being blocked by a wall of air, it gets horribly annoying. If I get my ability blocked by a Yasuo with two stacks of Deconstruction on him, I'd like to be able to get that third stack as he flees or continues to farm instead of trying to position my Q's split or moving where a jungler could gank me...

However, this brought up an idea for me ably Vel'Koz's W, or any other projectile like his - What about the second burst? He throws down his first hit, which is automatically blocked by Wind Wall (which doesn't make any sense in itself - a rift in the ground being blocked by a wall of air...?) but it still keeps whatever was already laid down. The second part then bursts up on whatever's left.

So my question would be, what happens to the second part? Would it stay the same and just not go through, or would it's animation pass (and anything after the Wind Wall not do damage on it's first hit) and then do reduced damage on it's second hit?

This would really make him easier to combat with when playing his counters. As a mobile champ who can block 75% of his abilities and nearly all the chance of getting his passive, a little help for ADC's and ranged APC's alike would go a long way.

GigglingAngelFeb 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The DJ Pon3,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l6dyKWJN,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-02-11T22:54:39.636+0000)

So my question would be, what happens to the second part? Would it stay the same and just not go through, or would it's animation pass (and anything after the Wind Wall not do damage on it's first hit) and then do reduced damage on it's second hit?

First off, thanks for actually posting a thoughtful reply instead of instantly downvoting and leaving without giving it any thought.
Now as to your question, I'd (again) look to how Braum's ability works. If the first ranged attack you throw at his shield is blocked and stops any further effects (besides CC, since he's the target), then I believe the same should be done with Yasuo's Wind Wall.

The DJ Pon3Feb 11, 20152 votes

Ah, thank you! ^^ This would still give Vel'Koz some problems, but I suppose that's the point of a counter. Still, laying down my W, then being able to hit me E and the second stack of W, even with reduced damage, would be worth wasting an ability to get the true damage stack.

I'm sure you can think of a hundred more champions who would benefit from that too

GigglingAngelFeb 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The DJ Pon3,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l6dyKWJN,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-11T23:20:10.070+0000)

Ah, thank you! ^^ This would still give Vel'Koz some problems, but I suppose that's the point of a counter. Still, laying down my W, then being able to hit me E and the second stack of W, even with reduced damage, would be worth wasting an ability to get the true damage stack.

I'm sure you can think of a hundred more champions who would benefit from that too

No problem! I truly appreciate your interest and valuable feedback. It's rare on these forums, especially when you make something that most people may see as tl;dr.

The DJ Pon3Feb 11, 20152 votes

I'm the same way in game, at least I try my best to be. If the community is plagued with a few toxic players, then there must be some optimists to combat that.

If something looks interesting, I'll read it - if I don't like it, I might post my opinion on it, or leave it be.

If someone is losing lane, I won't scream at them and try to carry the game, I'll go down and gank to help them out, whether they continue to farm while I poke back the enemy or we both tower dive and I get an assist, it helps them either way.

It's by far one of the best games out there when you hold you head high and have fun over everything else. When you nit-pick your team and start raging in /all chat, or when you're a troll and post nothing of value in the forums, your time as a Summoner gets pretty black and white.

GigglingAngelFeb 11, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=The DJ Pon3,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=l6dyKWJN,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-02-11T23:40:25.935+0000)

It's by far one of the best games out there when you hold you head high and have fun over everything else. When you nit-pick your team and start raging in /all chat, or when you're a troll and post nothing of value in the forums, your time as a Summoner gets pretty black and white.

So very true. If only being productive felt more ... rewarding.

Hyrum GraffFeb 12, 20151 votes

But... I love playing Vel into Yasuo. WIND WALLS DON'T BLOCK LAZORS.

The DJ Pon3Feb 12, 20151 votes

No, like I said, his ult is the only ability of Vel's that pass through. "Literally all his normal abilities are projectile skillshots", "... can block 75% of his abilities"

Yasuo can trow a wall up in front of his minions, making it harder to last-hit. He can do it as he's fleeing, so if your ult is down or you don't wanna waste it on one champ, you rely on your Q to get around the wall and split correctly at the right angle (pun intended) to hit him - if he hasn't already gotten too far. He can use his Q to knock you up, his ult to murder your health, his E to close distance if he needs to, and if you're able to get away after all that, you'll probably have to teleport back to base. Sure, Vel'Koz's abilities are able to kill him, there's barely any champion who you can't just vaporize in three seconds (Except Yi... Fuck that guy...) but even if you do start your combo, or even if you're able to get your ult off, Yasuo can just E to a minion or something with only like 400 damage. Meanwhile, you're spraying away like Call of Duty online and he can combo you to a miserable death with your ult on cool down.

I lose lane almost every time against a semi-good Yasuo. Granted, I'm only a level 19, and I'm by no means good at Vel'Koz, but I doubt that as my skill improves, the Yasuo players' wont.

ccseancc143Feb 11, 20151 votes

Braum can move his shield, Yasuo can't. Yasuo has no defensive capabilities without his windwall now. He moves too much for the "damage reduction" to be worth anything in him. He is also a MELEE and if he didn't have his windwalls ability to fully block ny projectiles he would be useless and considered garbage tier. He already as is has a hard kit to use.

GigglingAngelFeb 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Braum can move his shield, Yasuo can't.

Braum also takes all the damage (reduced after the first hit) and CC he blocks. It coincides with his identity as a tank.

Yasuo has no defensive capabilities without his windwall now.

Yasuo's identity is that of someone who has high mobility. He's not supposed to have the supreme defensive ability. He's supposed to be rewarded for quick, smart actions. If he's given just one free moment, he can do what he needs to do and back off.

He moves too much for the "damage reduction" to be worth anything in him.

The first complete block is his free moment to do something. With his movement and insane mobility, he should be able to make use of that. If he stands still the whole time behind the wall, then ya, I believe getting some reduced damage is just fine. He's not supposed to stay in one place. That's not how his kit works, at all. However, that same damage reduction, like Braum's ability, improves with ranks. That means the reduced damage will still be very valuable to him and his team. If timed right, he can still block a whole Ezreal/Ashe Ult, with everything else passing through it afterwards (again, including ranged ults) getting their damage reduced. If you think that's not worth anything ... lulz.

He is also a MELEE and if he didn't have his windwalls ability to fully block ny projectiles he would be useless and considered garbage tier. He already as is has a hard kit to use.

He also has a reoccurring, refreshing shield that can block a lot of that reduced damage that pass through the wall. The wall would be available much sooner early game, making it have more presence than just once ever 26 seconds. It would also be WIDER early game, giving him more room to move around and getting things blocked/reduced.

Did you actually read and think about it? Or do you just like to complain about something you skim over?

ccseancc143Feb 12, 20152 votes

You do realize this would break Yasuo. I dont know if you have ever played him before. he already got nerfs indirectly from IE nerf and you think another nerf is should follow up? Hes fine where he is.

GigglingAngelFeb 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You do realize this would break Yasuo. I dont know if you have ever played him before. he already got nerfs indirectly from IE nerf and you think another nerf is should follow up? Hes fine where he is.

How would it break him, exactly? Early game, the cooldown is shorter and the width is bigger. Both of those aspects, in comparison to the current Wind Wall, would have a rank 3 effectiveness at the first rank, if this change happened.

The first hit against the Wind Wall would be completely negated. Every other hit afterwards passing the wall would have reduced damage, which is then covered by Yasuo's passive shield.

For a melee champion, this would be a lot offered to him early game in terms of keeping safe. With a Wind Wall that is both used more often and much wider than the current rank 1 Wind Wall, I think the trade-offs are just fine.

And he wasn't hit that hard by the IE nerf, because I still see him dominating teams right now when he's used right: by someone who stays mobile with him. This change is focused on his mobility. It's a good change.

ccseancc143Feb 12, 20152 votes

You have obviously never played Yasuo, only against him.

GigglingAngelFeb 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

You have obviously never played Yasuo, only against him.

That's a wrong assumption. I've played him plenty of times. I also had a rune page dedicated to him before the IE nerf (so he'd have 99%+ crit chance at full bulid). I also know that one good Wind Wall can be the deciding factor in a fight. It's not even an ult, yet its current impact is valued as one, if not higher.

He's a melee carry. He shouldn't have that much power.

GaleWinUnleashedFeb 12, 20151 votes

Part of how Yasuo works is he needs to be able to block that one critical CC ability entirely. First ability needs to be 100% negated, CC and all.

GigglingAngelFeb 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Part of how Yasuo works is he needs to be able to block that one critical CC ability entirely. First ability needs to be 100% negated, CC and all.

Unlike Braum, Yasuo isn't the one being hit when the ability stops at the Wind Wall. So he wouldn't get the CC from the first hit, since it's stopped.

Spicy RiceFeb 12, 20151 votes

The way I see it, enjoying playing both as and against Yasuo, his windwall is one part of his kit that probably shouldn't be changed.

He is supposed to be a Melee-ADC, but as such, he is subjected to having to get people into his range in order to pump out his adc style damage.

His allows that to happen, from his minion dashes to his 3rd q + ult. However, along with getting into range, Yasuo is becoming a point blank target for his enemies' CC and damage abilities. Compared to a marksman, Yasuo puts himself in considerably more danger when putting out the full brunt of his damage (as he does have the squishyness of an adc). It is the reason for his 2 most hated/loved abilities, His passive shield, and Windwall

His shield allows him to absorb a bit of damage on his way to his opponent, allowing him to not be at 50-75% facing a 90% hp opponent. This to me makes quite a bit of sense. Compared to his ranged counterparts, Yasuo has to act as his own meatshield. He doesn't get the ability to fully realize his damage while being able to hide behind tanks/bruisers. The shield helps to mitigate what i'll call the "ranged gap" (The safety to damage ratio of ranged carries vs melee ones).

And his Infamous Wind wall is another ability that allows Yasuo to bridge the "ranged gap". People argue that his windwall is "OP" becuase of how it allows him to completely negate projectiles. The way that I see it is that ranged carries are doing the exact same thing, except with less counterplay. There isn't a difference between negating projectiles, and being completely out of range of them in the first place. Yes Yasuo can negate projectiles for 3-4 secs, but ranged champs can completely avoid them in the first place. In fact, I feel that windwall is balanced as it has counterplay. Windwall can be baited, or waited out without busting a syndra ult or the like. Compare this to ranged carries that can just stay out of range (At least Yasuo gets inside your damage range for you).

JustMyBassCannonFeb 12, 20151 votes

So, wait, why is Wind Wall broken, but Unbreakable balanced?

Mechanically, they're exactly the same thing; a wall that intercepts projectiles. Yasuo's can't move, but it doesn't deal any damage to him. Braum's deals (significantly reduced) damage to him, but is mobile (especially due to his gap closer).

They're both very powerful when used properly. They can efficiently negate ultimates and marksmen, both of which have been reasons why projectile walling has been a target of complaint.

The factor, then, is not the wall, but the fact that Yasuo is an assassin/carry, while Braum is a tank/support. Braum's defensive ability is accepted because he's not an offense-focused champion. He has to have someone else deal damage for him, and he protects his teammates instead. Yasuo, on the other hand, needs a defensive tool to survive initiation (since he doesn't have the fastest initiation, compared to champs like Talon, Zed, Katarina, Yi).

A similar comparison would be that nobody complains about Alistar's R and E, but it's not hard to find someone who will complain about Master Yi's W. Or how nobody bats an eye at Vladimir's W, but shitstorms have not ceased over Fizz's E (yes, I know, cooldown difference; honestly, I think Fizz's E could do with a bit longer base cooldown, but that's another discussion).

Basically, it's not that the mechanic is broken on one and balanced on the other, rather it's accepted on one because that champion is built around almost entirely defensive mechanics. You can't call it broken on Yasuo, but balanced on Braum; it's either balanced or broken on both of them, and you're just more willing to accept Braum because he's defense-focused.

GigglingAngelFeb 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So, wait, why is Wind Wall broken, but Unbreakable balanced?

Mechanically, they're exactly the same thing; a wall that intercepts projectiles. Yasuo's can't move, but it doesn't deal any damage to him. Braum's deals (significantly reduced) damage to him, but is mobile (especially due to his gap closer).

There are plenty of differences between the two, with Wind Wall usually winning out in properties. A lot of these have to deal with Unbreakable still being Braum, just with reduced damage. That brings up a lot more weaknesses than you probably realize.

Unbreakable still causes damage after the first hit, and every hit still causes any CC it would normally do. This easily causes Braum to get low on health fast, eating everyone's attacks like that and being left behind. When you add in the fact that he probably used Stand Behind Me beforehand for the bonus Armor/MR, he doesn't have much of an escape (other than Flash or something). Wind Wall completely negates any and all ranged moves, completely protecting anyone behind it 100%. CC, Ults, damage. Nothing. If you and your team throw everything out and Wind Wall comes up, everything is totally negated. If you and your team throw everything out and Unbreakable comes up, Braum has a high chance of actually getting killed eating up so much damage and CC (especially early game).
Unbreakable costs 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 mana. Wind Wall does not cost anything, ever.
Unbreakable's width is very shorter than Wind Wall at ranks 4/5.
Wind Wall grants sight over a small area it's at. Since Unbreakable is simply Braum, it does not provide any more sight than Braum provides.
Projectiles whose effects trigger on collision will still happen upon hitting Braum — dealing damage, applying debuffs, creating slowing fields and marking the target as "hit" for the purposes of Zenith Blade's dash or Infected Cleaver's health refund. Wind Wall, in comparison, completely negates all of these attributes. (Fun Fact: Draven's Spinning Axe will not be destroyed if it hits Braum. He'll still have the chance to catch and throw it again. It will always bounce back. Wind Wall doesn't follow that logic.)
Lux's Prismatic Barrier will not be intercepted/blocked by an ally Braum's Unbreakable, unlike an ally's Wind Wall. (Finally, a win for Braum.)
Unbreakable has no effect on true damage. So, no damage reduction there.
Instantaneous targeted abilities (e.g. Transfusion and a Braum-targeted Time Bomb) and persistent area of effect abilities (e.g. Tormented Soil) do not interact with Unbreakable. Meaning he takes full damage.

I could easily go on, but I'm sure you get my point by now.

They're both very powerful when used properly. They can efficiently negate ultimates and marksmen, both of which have been reasons why projectile walling has been a target of complaint.

Negate: nullify; make ineffective. This definition proves 100% true to attacks blocked by Yasuo's Wind Wand. This definition does not prove 100% true to attacks blocked by Unbreakable. As I stated before, Braum can die if he eats up too much damage and CC, especially early game.

The factor, then, is not the wall, but the fact that Yasuo is an assassin/carry, while Braum is a tank/support. Braum's defensive ability is accepted because he's not an offense-focused champion. He has to have someone else deal damage for him, and he protects his teammates instead. Yasuo, on the other hand, needs a defensive tool to survive initiation (since he doesn't have the fastest initiation, compared to champs like Talon, Zed, Katarina, Yi).

Right. That's why I suggested a change that would meld with his kite without making it unbearable and insanely impactive for something that isn't even an ult. (Especially when you consider that protecting the team isn't an assassin's/carry's role, at all.)

Basically, it's not that the mechanic is broken on one and balanced on the other, rather it's accepted on one because that champion is built around almost entirely defensive mechanics. You can't call it broken on Yasuo, but balanced on Braum; it's either balanced or broken on both of them, and you're just more willing to accept Braum because he's defense-focused.

Wind Wall is overall better than Unbreakable, as I have posted. The amount of weaknesses that Unbreakable gives just by making it mobile for Braum are staggering in comparison when you actually pay attention to all the details. How is it that an assassin/carry has that much more power than a Support who's entire role actually revolves around the skill Wind Wall trumps?

Again, I'm not only proposing nerfs to Wind Wall, but also buffs as well that would be better suited to his kit and role that would help his early game.
Just in case you didn't read it: His wall width and his cooldown would get major buffs. As for late game, 40% damage reduction + an actual complete negation (CC and all) of the first ability (which still includes ults) is plenty to provide for a team. If you think all that from one skill is enough to ruin him when he's getting an easier early game ... :/ Just no.

JustMyBassCannonFeb 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

There are plenty of differences between the two, with Wind Wall usually winning out in properties. A lot of these have to deal with Unbreakable still being Braum, just with reduced damage. That brings up a lot more weaknesses than you probably realize.

Unbreakable still causes damage after the first hit, and every hit still causes any CC it would normally do. This easily causes Braum to get low on health fast, eating everyone's attacks like that and being left behind. When you add in the fact that he probably used Stand Behind Me beforehand for the bonus Armor/MR, he doesn't have much of an escape (other than Flash or something). Wind Wall completely negates any and all ranged moves, completely protecting anyone behind it 100%. CC, Ults, damage. Nothing. If you and your team throw everything out and Wind Wall comes up, everything is totally negated. If you and your team throw everything out and Unbreakable comes up, Braum has a high chance of actually getting killed eating up so much damage and CC (especially early game).

Unbreakable costs 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50 mana. Wind Wall does not cost anything, ever.

Unbreakable's width is very shorter than Wind Wall at ranks 4/5.

Wind Wall grants sight over a small area it's at. Since Unbreakable is simply Braum, it does not provide any more sight than Braum provides.

Projectiles whose effects trigger on collision will still happen upon hitting Braum — dealing damage, applying debuffs, creating slowing fields and marking the target as "hit" for the purposes of Zenith Blade's dash or Infected Cleaver's health refund. Wind Wall, in comparison, completely negates all of these attributes. (Fun Fact: Draven's Spinning Axe will not be destroyed if it hits Braum. He'll still have the chance to catch and throw it again. It will always bounce back. Wind Wall doesn't follow that logic.)

Lux's Prismatic Barrier will not be intercepted/blocked by an ally Braum's Unbreakable, unlike an ally's Wind Wall. (Finally, a win for Braum.)

Unbreakable has no effect on true damage. So, no damage reduction there.

Instantaneous targeted abilities (e.g. Transfusion and a Braum-targeted Time Bomb) and persistent area of effect abilities (e.g. Tormented Soil) do not interact with Unbreakable. Meaning he takes full damage.

I could easily go on, but I'm sure you get my point by now.

Braum's Unbreakable also grants him a defensive steroid of 40% Damage Reduction. Not 100+ Armor/MR (approximately how much that is worth after accounting for base Armor/MR, the + accounting for after items), but 40% Damage Reduction, basically impenetrable outside of True damage. He's taking massively reduced damage, especially when he uses his W beforehand. He doesn't need to escape when he's halving the damage you deal after already more-than-halving it with his defensive items. And if Braum dies by intercepting literally everything your team can throw at him, you just left his entire team alive, off cooldown and ready to wreck shit. So good luck with that.
Like 30-50 Mana is a heavy expenditure. Manaless champions don't have costs (duh), curb your jealousy. Quite seriously, I don't get from where came this forum's fetish with trying to give manaless champions costs. Have a free sample, that'll be $5.
Wind Wall's mobility is much lower from rank 1.
Every detached wall spell does; it's a natural aspect of wall spells.
Yes, Unbreakable changes the targeting rather than fully negating the effect. Because Braum is a tank, and is built to take damage, ergo his projectile wall was designed with the idea of being a surrogate target. Compared to Yasuo, whose wall is the only reason ranged champions don't obliterate him...immediately.
That sounds like a bug; allied effects shouldn't be terminating allied spells in any situation.
Wind Wall has no effect on non-projectiles, so no damage negation there. Also, how many true damage projectiles exist again?
They do not interact with Wind Wall, either.

I could easily keep bringing up counter-points, if you go on.

Negate: nullify; make ineffective. This definition proves 100% true to attacks blocked by Yasuo's Wind Wand. This definition does not prove 100% true to attacks blocked by Unbreakable. As I stated before, Braum can die if he eats up too much damage and CC, especially early game.

Yes, please, go on and describe the most basic function of the game. If you take X damage, you die.

Meanwhile, in my book, if a Braum body-blocks a projectile and it doesn't kill its intended target or Braum, he negated it. It's not the textbook definition, but now you've wasted whatever it was, only to watch it get blocked and both targets walking away like nothing happened.

Right. That's why I suggested a change that would meld with his kite without making it unbearable and insanely impactive for something that isn't even an ult. (Especially when you consider that protecting the team isn't an assassin's/carry's role, at all.)

Because champions can't have high-impact non-ultimate spells--oh, wait, that's totally false.

If I was bored, I'd go through all the examples, but right now, I'll just remind you that Event Horizon still exists. Veigar

Wind Wall is overall better than Unbreakable, as I have posted. The amount of weaknesses that Unbreakable gives just by making it mobile for Braum are staggering in comparison when you actually pay attention to all the details. How is it that an assassin/carry has that much more power than a Support who's entire role actually revolves around the skill Wind Wall trumps?

Again, I'm not only proposing nerfs to Wind Wall, but also buffs as well that would be better suited to his kit and role that would help his early game.
Just in case you didn't read it: His wall width and his cooldown would get major buffs. As for late game, 40% damage reduction + an actual complete negation (CC and all) of the first ability (which still includes ults) is plenty to provide for a team. If you think all that from one skill is enough to ruin him when he's getting an easier early game ... :/ Just no.

You were apparently gone from the game when Yasuo took direct nerfs to his defenses, excluding Wind Wall. His Flow requirement for a shield increased, his Flow gain was reduced, his shield's HP and duration took nerfs, his base HP and Armor were reduced, all to account for this one defensive tool in his kit.

You must also be entirely ignorant of statistics, considering you're proposing nerfs when Yasuo isn't even at a 50/50 win rate in Bronze.

GigglingAngelFeb 14, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Braum's Unbreakable also grants him a defensive steroid of 40% Damage Reduction. Not 100+ Armor/MR (approximately how much that is worth after accounting for base Armor/MR, the + accounting for after items), but 40% Damage Reduction, basically impenetrable outside of True damage. He's taking massively reduced damage, especially when he uses his W beforehand. He doesn't need to escape when he's halving the damage you deal after already more-than-halving it with his defensive items. And if Braum dies by intercepting literally everything your team can throw at him, you just left his entire team alive, off cooldown and ready to wreck shit. So good luck with that.

The role of a tank is to absorb as much damage as they can. I believe that's something we can both agree on.

Like 30-50 Mana is a heavy expenditure. Manaless champions don't have costs (duh), curb your jealousy.

Free > Cost. It really doesn't matter what your opinion is concerning that or how you view me with your assumptions, because it won't change that fact.

Quite seriously, I don't get from where came this forum's fetish with trying to give manaless champions costs. Have a free sample, that'll be $5.

The outcry started with the plentiful mana regen nerfs. Those regen nerfs were a huge passive buff to manaless/costless champs. If you really didn't know this, then that says a lot of how perceptive you are.

Wind Wall's mobility is much lower from rank 1.

So is a Braum when he eats up all the stuns/slows/knock-ups. The difference? He actually takes damage.

Every detached wall spell does; it's a natural aspect of wall spells.

Yes. Yet, it's not actually a counter to what I said, is it? You're simply confirming what I stated.

Yes, Unbreakable changes the targeting rather than fully negating the effect. Because Braum is a tank, and is built to take damage, ergo his projectile wall was designed with the idea of being a surrogate target. Compared to Yasuo, whose wall is the only reason ranged champions don't obliterate him...immediately.

Again, the role of a tank is to absorb as much damage as they can. I believe that's something we can both agree on. It is not the role of a fighter/assassin to absorb and negate all that damage. Yasuo is the only one in his role who can do such a thing. The changes I suggested was a motion to help regulate what his role is meant for.

As I've said to another user, I've shown this thread to a friend of mine who mains Yasuo (who's Plat II). He believes that it's a good start, and could use more work. He suggested good ideas to help improve the idea, because he believes (as a Yasuo main who's in Plat II) that his wall makes too much of an impact in an area he shouldn't have so much power in. His role is a fighter/assassin, not a tank.

That sounds like a bug; allied effects shouldn't be terminating allied spells in any situation.

You're probably right on this point ... which kinda helps my case, seeing as this was initially a positive point I made for your case.

Wind Wall has no effect on non-projectiles, so no damage negation there.

Yet the whole point of both of the skills is to block projectiles. And melee's can fully damage a Braum if he's not facing their way (and he can't turn during the ability's duration). So ... you're not exactly making a strong counter-point here.

Also, how many true damage projectiles exist again?

Here's the full listing of everything that deals notable true damage. Those that would actually have a notable effect on Braum are noted with a plus sign.~

Champions who deal true damage with standard attacks:

Corki's Hextech Shrapnel Shells
Irelia's Hiten Style (active only)
Twitch's Deadly Venom (applies true damage over time)
Vayne's Silver Bolts (upon 3rd consecutive hit on a single target)
Master Yi's Wuju Style (on autoattacks, but for duration of ability only)

Champions who deal true damage with abilities:

Ahri's Orb of Deception (upon retraction)
Cho'Gath's Feast
Darius's Noxian Guillotine
Kog'Maw's Icathian Surprise Nunu's Consume (only to minions, neutral monsters, and pets.)
Olaf's Reckless Swing
Rek'Sai's Furious Bite (100 Fury)
Vel'Koz's Organic Deconstruction (upon 3rd consecutive abilities on a single target)
Zyra's Rise of the Thorns

Items:

Entropy
Stalker's Blade
Skirmisher's Sabre (Smiting enemy champion makes basic attacks deal true damage)

Summoner spells:

Ignite Smite, Blasting Smite and Scavenging Smite (only to minions, neutral monsters, and pets)
Challenging Smite - debuff that dealing true damage on hit to champion
Chilling Smite

They do not interact with Wind Wall, either.

Wind Wall isn't the target for those spells in question ... How many champions do you see use the spells in question on/around Wind Wall if no actual target is around it?

I could easily keep bringing up counter-points, if you go on.

It doesn't really matter if you can easily bring up counter-points if they aren't good, at all.

Yes, please, go on and describe the most basic function of the game. If you take X damage, you die.

Meanwhile, in my book, if a Braum body-blocks a projectile and it doesn't kill its intended target or Braum, he negated it. It's not the textbook definition, but now you've wasted whatever it was, only to watch it get blocked and both targets walking away like nothing happened.

Then "your book" is false, because all those abilities still effect him and his team, because if he either dies or takes too much damage, they are now without a tank. Those abilities still did an effect. If he lives, he has to recall, or else he'll die anyway by taking any more damage at that point. That would cause the team to still be left with one less champion for a teamfight.

Wind Wall 100% completely negates and destroys ranged abilities. That is a true negation. Not a single negative effect would cause Yasuo's team to have any reduction in overall power.

I should also note that while Wind Wall completely destroys

Because champions can't have high-impact non-ultimate spells--oh, wait, that's totally false.

If I was bored, I'd go through all the examples, but right now, I'll just remind you that Event Horizon still exists.

... You're making this way too easy ...

Stuns are in nearly every mage's kit. It fits with their role.

Absorbing unlimited amounts of ranged damage and CC for both the user and the team with an ability that isn't even an ult is not in any other fighter/assassin kit (or any carry role, for that matter). That's the job of a tank. Yasuo is not a tank. He doesn't need that amount of power for something his kit isn't meant for.

Let's look at a champion that is highly comparable to Yasuo; Fiora.

They both are melee carries/assassins.
They both have a passive meant to help keep them healthy during fights.
They both have a dash.
They both have an ability meant primarily for damage-dealing.
They both have an ult that is meant to ravage enemy teams before being dumped in the middle to continue attacking. Good team synergy helps make this effort more useful for the both of them.
They both struggle with harass/range, being fragile and all. So, they both have a defensive ability to help them with that. However, this is where the first main difference comes in.

Fiora has a personal shield (meant for her alone) that lasts 1.5 seconds, blocks 1 auto attack during that time (but not an ability), and reflects a bit of magical damage. It's instant, so it can be used with quick reflexes to block incoming damage while dealing a bit back. While it has a much lower cooldown than Yasuo's compared ability, it also has a mana cost of 45, which discourages spamming it for a champion who only starts with 287 mana, unless she doesn't want to be able to use any of her abilities. Unless Fiora would be killed in one attack without this ability, the active does not make that much of an impact. The real power with this ability is the 15 early bonus AD.

Yasuo has a shield that not only protects him but the whole team behind. It lasts 3-4 seconds, blocks all ranged attacks and abilities while it's up. It's instant, so it can be used with quick reflexes to block incoming damage and CC, and it stays up the whole 3-4 seconds.
It cannot be spammed, just like Fiora's, but solely because of its cooldown. Otherwise, it (and the rest of his abilities) can be used freely. This one move shuts down all ranged champions.

Now, there's one more main difference here; scaling.

Fiora has a better early game because of the AD given to her by Riposte, rising her early burst power. She is more beginner-friendly with her kit, making her win rate higher than Yasuo's, who's kit is the opposite of beginner-friendly. Yasuo has a better late game because of his insane scaling with his kit and passive. For the cost of a harder early game and 10% reduced damage on critical hits (25% on his Q), his critical chance is doubled.

You were apparently gone from the game when Yasuo took direct nerfs to his defenses, excluding Wind Wall. His Flow requirement for a shield increased, his Flow gain was reduced, his shield's HP and duration took nerfs, his base HP and Armor were reduced, all to account for this one defensive tool in his kit.

No. I was not gone. I was wondering why they were nerfing his other defenses instead of the one OP move. It's backwards logic obviously meant to promote "big plays". The cost is simply giving up a chance of a healthy kit.

You must also be entirely ignorant of statistics, considering you're proposing nerfs when Yasuo isn't even at a 50/50 win rate in Bronze.

... Because Bronze players know how to use Yasuo effectively, let alone his Wind Wall. /sarcasm

JustMyBassCannonFeb 16, 20151 votes

And the role of an Assassin requires that they have some way to avoid taking damage. Meanwhile, the role of a Fighter is the capacity to both take and deal damage. Yasuo is both, so either he would have to be able to directly survive the level of damage he'd be taking, or he gets Wind Wall. By comparison, Master Yi gets Meditate, which has Alistar's ultimate in damage resistance plus a heal over time.
Strictly speaking, yes, having a cost is worse than having no cost. However, Braum's wall is a "cost" in the same way Yasuo's Flow for his shield is a cost. It takes no time to rebuild the resource required to do it again.
The difference? Yasuo isn't built to take that damage, or even half of that damage. Or have you ever played him and understood this for yourself?
No, it's not a direct counter-point. It's just statement of a fact; wall spells grant vision because of how walls are coded. I didn't know I needed a counter-point, because nobody's enough of an idiot to use Wind Wall for vision.
And I've told my Gold friend and my Plat friend about this idea, and they disagree with it. But just saying we have ranked friends who agree/disagree is wholly moot to the argument.

Let's just get this out of the way; it's entirely unrealistic to think that Yasuo or Braum would actually absorb all of the projectiles from one team with their walls. This assumes that the entire team is in one location, and that they fire everything all within 3 seconds of each other. You might see that happen in a rare Baron/Dragon fight, but it's as likely to happen as you are to find a four-leaf clover. It happens; it's not normal.

It wasn't a positive argument in any case. You just pointed out a bug with Yasuo's wall.
Now answer the question, how many are projectiles?

Hextech Shrapnel, Deadly Venom, Silver Bolts, Orb of Deception (assuming that it doesn't hit him going out), Organic Deconstruction (ignoring his ultimate) and Rise of the Thorns. 6 out of 20 mentioned true damage effects. Less than 1/3 of the true damage effects listed are able to affect Braum and not Yasuo.

Also, you put a + mark next to everything except the one True Damage ability that cannot affect champions. If you're going to emphasize everything, you may as well not emphasize anything.

Okay, so you're going to say that instant-target and AoE non-projectiles don't interact with Braum's wall, but when I point out that they don't interact with Yasuo's either, you act like I said "Target Yasuo's wall with these spells." Are you trying to sound like a retard?

It's amusing that you tell me there is no point to bringing up bad counter-points.

"My book" isn't 'accurate' in the strictest sense, but I have yet to see a 4v5 team fight where the 4 have their ultimates, the 5 don't, and the 4 lose to the 5. All that the team losing Braum has lost is a stun or two, a slow and a knockup. The other team lost their ultimates and probably another basic spell per champ to nuke him before the fight. Unless they back off and regroup 30 seconds later, they're fucked.

No. That was not the point of what I said.

I said that there are other non-ultimate spells that have ultimate-level power. I only listed one example; Veigar's E is basically a superior Thresh ultimate; at the cost of not dealing damage (to one target), Veigar's wall stuns enemies instead of slowing them, and the walls don't get destroyed by contact.

I was not saying that Event Horizon doesn't fit Veigar's playstyle or archetype; I said it's a basic spell that's on the level of an ultimate in power. And it's one example. If you're entirely unperceptive, I can look for others for you.

About the Fiora/Yasuo comparison, Fiora has never been a good champion. Her basic kit is pathetically weak, and then her ultimate is so ridiculously imbalanced to overcompensate. She was horrible from day 1, and she has only ever been viable when someone found some batshit that gets nerfed later.

Yasuo appeared horribly balanced in the community's eyes, because his kit is one of Riot's only known attempts to make a kit that has something unique in every slot. To be fair, he was a bit overpowered when his shield could block nearly 700 damage and his W granted extra Flow gain. Once those were fixed, he didn't have Shen-tier shields to invalidate the need of Wind Wall every 2 seconds (yes, literally 2 seconds to refill the Flow meter pre-nerf, without using his R).

So he actually needed Wind Wall to protect himself, because his innate defenses couldn't cover for him despite being a Fighter, the archetype known for giving and taking damage.

Please, explain to me, what is unhealthy about Wind Wall?

It (was) a brand new mechanic, the first (and second to last) time they would make such a thing. Instead of a direct shield that blocks damage, it's a no-fly zone for projectiles. Yasuo has a long cooldown on it, so he can't just spam it to free-block everything unless it's U.R.F. mode, and he doesn't have the defenses to spare on mis-firing it. His opponents can reposition, regroup, or just not use projectiles until it goes down; the one thing they can't really do is fire through the wall, which is the same thing as saying someone can't just walk through Anivia's ice wall (except narrower).

What is actually unhealthy for the game that Wind Wall promotes?

Again, you misunderstand what I said. Maybe I should have said it this way; Yasuo's highest win rate is in Bronze, and he barely hits 48% in Bronze, let alone Plat or Diamond.

Hyrum GraffFeb 12, 20151 votes

I'm OK with the amount of power than wind wall gives. In a game that's very ranged at this point, I think it's good to give melee champs some ways of dealing with that.

I don't think it's OK that, simply by holding on to wind wall, Yasuo basically makes it so ranged champs can't use their big combos for fear of being blocked (because nothing feels worse than getting your Veigar or Syndra ult wind walled).

I elaborate more here, but I think the issue is, there's no delay on the wind wall, so Yasuo can cast it reflexively, rather than forcing him to cast it preemptively.

Sightless66Feb 12, 20151 votes

If we were to accept this as a good proposal (and I don't), then it would still need some work. You'd need to give Yasuo significantly more buffs than you proposed if you want an equal tradeoff. The help to his lane would be pretty small because the utility of an increased wall size or 4 seconds on the wall are pretty small early, while the hit of not being able to block as much incoming damage or anywhere near as much incoming CC is huge at point of the game outside of the laning stage. The nerfs are just ridiculously out of proportion to the buffs.

I'd think you'd need much more power in the ability to replace what you're taking out. Just as an example, I think that giving the ability a 12 second cooldown at max rank would be close, but not sufficient, for replacing what the ability has lost. That's the kind of power you need to make a more even tradeoff.

GigglingAngelFeb 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

If we were to accept this as a good proposal (and I don't), then it would still need some work.

That's exactly why I have that poll up. I'd much rather hear people's ideas on how to help make it work than someone shooting it down altogether, saying it's stupid, without giving it much thought.

You'd need to give Yasuo significantly more buffs than you proposed if you want an equal tradeoff. The help to his lane would be pretty small because the utility of an increased wall size or 4 seconds on the wall are pretty small early, while the hit of not being able to block as much incoming damage or anywhere near as much incoming CC is huge at point of the game outside of the laning stage. The nerfs are just ridiculously out of proportion to the buffs.

I never said he couldn't get more buffs in other places to compensate. I suggested some initial buffs of my own and hoped others would also put in their ideas.

For example, I was talking to a friend who mains Yasuo (Plat II), showed this thread to him. and asked him if what his thoughts were and how he'd help improve the idea. He said that it was a good start, and he suggested that keeping the ability to completely block ranged auto-attacks + the first ability would be up to par for what his Wind Wall is supposed to do. He then also suggested that a slight re-buff happen to his shield that got nerfed a bit ago to help compensate for the damage that would get through the wall.

Stuff like that is what I appreciate. However, it seems people mostly just shoot down any ideas they see without giving it an ounce of contemplation.

I'd think you'd need much more power in the ability to replace what you're taking out. Just as an example, I think that giving the ability a 12 second cooldown at max rank would be close, but not sufficient, for replacing what the ability has lost. That's the kind of power you need to make a more even tradeoff.

After discussing this with my friend (the same one who mains Yasuo), he thinks that 12 seconds might be okay, but that's only before the variable of it blocking all AAs is added back to the equation. If the ability is able to block all AAs for 4 seconds every 12 seconds, it would make it even more unbearable than it is now for enemy teams, leaving only an 8 second interval for ADCs to be effective. He thinks 15 seconds would sound better, meeting halfway to the initial suggestion. That way, ADCs would have an 11 second interval instead of 8 to be effective.

aswin027Jul 22, 20151 votes

i think its great.. ive played both( yasuo and braum) and saw them being played by others, i does fell like windwall need a bit of rework.. it shouldnt block everything and for the whole duration of 3.75 seconds.. just not quite the thing for this game... just my opinion. like it can guarantee the safety of a low hp champion. Or something is to be done about it (maybe a reduced duration of the wall is also an option). And i thing it would only make yasuo a more fun champion to play.. just my opinion..