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Zed is a too safe pick

Giovarco··19 votes·4,272 views

I find Zed a very interesting champion and fun to play, I guess. However, I don't understand why, as an assassin, he's supposed to be a safe pick. An assassin should be never safe, be superweak pre-6 and 100-0s a squishy post-6. If you play Katarina or Akali, you know what I mean saying "be superweak pre-6 and 100-0 a squishy post-6". But why is he so safe?

  • Katarina's Q (which seems somehow Zed's Q) has 10 / 9.5 / 9 / 8.5 / 8 of cooldown on her Q , so often she has to last hit with AA and expose herself to enemy harass without counterplay. On the contrary, Zed can last hit for free with his Q because it has a static 6 seconds of cooldown. I propose a nerf to the CD.
  • Zed passive is very useful because he's an assassin and helps to execute enemy champions. However, the same passive is super useful to last hit minions with AAs. On the contrary, other assassins has a lot of problems last hitting with AA because of low AD. An example is Talon, who should avoid to farm with W because he hasn't an infinite mana pool like Zed, even if he has item 2041 and item 2004. What I propose is: Zed's passive doesn't work with minions.

I propose these changes not because I hate Zed or he hasn't counterplay, but because he can farm too easily pre-6 without dying. Besides, I didn't propose nerf to his damage because I think that are ok.

56 Comments

Narasimha8 votes

He's the 'least risk' because he also gives 'the least reward'. Kat can take one kill and make it a penta. Akali can take one kill and make more out of it as well. Talon.... well Talon could use some love, but he executes his burst much faster than any other assassin except maybe Rengar, so its the hardest to counter.

Unless Zed is obnoxiously fed, its 'one and done' for him. He gets that one kill and has to skeedaddle.

LUS Montplaisir4 votes

A really huge difference between Zed and either Katarina or Akali is that everything those two do is point and click with a cast-on-self AoE spin. Q? Pick a target and guaranteed to hit; W for Katarina is a spin attack, for Akali is an invisibility circle; E is a dash for Kata and an AoE from self ability for Akali. Akali has a point and click dash for an ultimate. You can't compare the champions, its apples to whales. Not to mention there's a ton of abilities and 2 items that flat block Zed's ultimate's 'mark' (Banshee's and Zhonyas are the items), and there's ton of counterplay involved in a lane against Zed. Try zoning him by literally harassing him out of lane, or, you know, don't pick a squish; Zed will absolutely always lose to champions like Annie or Ryze. So use those as counters.

PL553 votes

I seriously don't understand, when Talon was dominating most people (yes I remember vividly) said that Zed should be a model for future assassins. They barely changed anything about him and now hes overpowered and too safe for an assassin?

Giovarco6 votes

Talon never dominated, never was a safe pick. Talon, Yasuo, Katarina, LeBlanc, Kassadin and Akali, who rarely were played, were nerfed and Zed was buffed. And I never said Zed is OP or hasn't counterplay.

Edit: People downvote me D:

Junkο1 votes

Talon never dominated Yasuo, Katarina, Kassadin and Akali, who rarely were played

LOLOLOLOL

First of all Kassadin got a 100% pick ban rate, Yasuo ALMOST got to that point. I'm not even gonna bring everything else you were wrong with up.

Kuroi861 votes

Yasuo, and Kassadin have both seen a good bit or pro play, LB and Talon both saw a little too, resulting in their nerfs.

Prior to numerous assassins receiving direct or indirect nerfs, Zed was called the most balanced of them all. Now people say he's op or too safe.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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Kuroi861 votes

You're right, Talon saw relatively little pro play. He did see it too. Which many believe led directly to his silence being taken away. Borderline op still falls within the realm of balanced. He's a bit on the stronger side, which as an assassin, he needs to be. Would you rather assassins be unable to snowball or assassinate their targets at all? They are counted as the hardest counter to the ADC.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

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Kuroi861 votes

Also, I would rather an assassin not be able to split push, team fight, and apply as much map pressure as zed does now.

About the only one of those Zed excels at is split pushing due to him being AD. Team fights are risky for him as a competent tank or support is going to ensure he doesn't assassinate anyone. And given his range, his map pressure is far outweighed by many others.

However, assasins should not be as strong as zed is now and I have no idea why the hell riot nerfed talon before they nerfed zed.

Talon was nerfed because he had a targeted silence and the ability to get his entire burst out within the duration of that silence. When he saw pro play, it was apparent, either Talon was going to get nerfed, or he was going to turn and dominate the meta. If Talon got ahead, there was no counterplay, you were silenced and then you were dead. At least with Zed you have a chance to fight back.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Kuroi861 votes

I'm not trying to say that Talon was better than Zed. I'm pointing out WHY Talon was nerfed. I can't remember the exact one, but in a pro competition, Talon dominated due to his play style. That being, him being able to get off his full burst within the duration of his silence, outside of the best Zed players, I don't think any player could pull off that kind of burst that fast with Zed, but take that as just my opinion. Talon was nerfed because a broken aspect of his kit was revealed in pro play and had to be dealt with or else the Talon band wagon would have overflowed so hard you might as well rename the game to League of Talon. The silence was removed because Riot couldn't ignore it and leave it in place any more, that's it.

Lee Sin, Rengar, heck even Ziggs and Pantheon have global map pressure as strong as Zed.

And about the only time a Zed is going to 100-0 a tank is if he's fed and the tank isn't, trust me, Zed vs Cho'Gath at the same level and build numbers isn't going to end in Zed' favor. His team fights are okay, but unless he gets grossly fed, it's a bad idea for him to do more in a team fight outside of assassinating the ADC and running away. As for dictating engages, again, that's based solely on him being heavily fed.

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Kuroi861 votes

http://oce.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/patch/patch-417-notes#patch-talon

"Now that other high-burst low-counterplay assassins have been modified in some way (hello LeBlanc), Talon's one of the next dudes to step forward. Our focus with this change is not to entirely nerf Talon (although we realize this is a hit to his laning phase against certain champion matchups), rather, it's to reduce frustration when playing against him. Specifically, Talon's ability to obliterate a target of his choosing in the mid to late game without them having any say in the matter (literally) is a tough ability to balance around - especially as we've targeted other low-counterplay abilities like LeBlanc's Sigil of Silence. As an aside, this does mean that the ability name Cutthroat makes no sense from a thematic perspective, but naming it cut-ankles was less inspiring. We'll look into it."

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Kuroi861 votes

You miss the point. He wasn't nerfed due to complaints. He was nerfed due to lack of counterplay. Take off the tin foil hat and actually look at the champion for a second. Talon was considered the dark horse king of assassins for a while by many high elo players for the simple fact that if he got ahead, there was no going 1v1 against him, he'd kill you before you could even have a chance to fight back thanks to his silence.

Zed on the other hand leaves possibly the largest window for counter play of any assassin in the game. Unless grossely fed, Zed is heavily ult and Bork reliant, and once he blows that, he's done until both come back up. His ult takes 3 seconds to pop, that's three seconds to counter him. CC him, jump away, exhaust, QSS, Zhonya, whatever. You don't get that chance with Talon.

Kuroi861 votes

He was nerfed solely based off of qq from low elo games.

So are you actually going to drop some proof instead of tin foil claims?

Even when he is not fed, he still provides more map pressure than talon and is better at both split pushing and team fights.

If Zed has a ton of map pressure, then you're not warding. Zed and Talon are both good at split pushing, Talon has the better team fight with his ult though, where as Zed' ult is single target and he has much less AOE than Talon.

A champion can counter individual aspects of zed's kit such as the delay on his ult but those matter very little in the grand scheme of a game.

Considering that high elo play is more about who makes the first mistake and who capitalizes on it rather than outplaying, then yes, having that window of opportunity makes a BIG difference. If Zed has a problem, it's that he's too safe, but in return for that he probably has one of the biggest windows for counterplay of all assassins. Simply put, they will kill you faster and many are more snowball than Zed. In return, you can shut out the others harder, while Zed can be behind and still be effective to his team.

He has trade offs, heck I've played less than a dozen games with him and I can see this.

supes the lost1 votes

yes, because getting death marked, hit with a full zed skill rotation, then watching him use the ult shadow to exit immediately after has counterplay as a squishy.

Kuroi861 votes

You have three seconds from the moment Zed pops his ulti until the death mark pops. That is time to CC him, kill him, exhaust him, flash a wall away from him, knock him back, pop QSS, Zhonya's, ect. Anything that will nullify his damage.

You didn't get that option with Talon. By the time the silence was gone he had already burned his full rotation and was off and away with you either dead or near dead.

Kuroi863 votes

An assassin should be never safe, be superweak pre-6 and 100-0s a squishy post-6.

Except simply post-6 an assassin should never 100-0 you. Now, once that assassin has two levels and a full item or two on you, then yes, they should 100-0 you. But in the case of Zed, if he hits six, ults and kills you, then you weren't at 100% health, you were under 30%.

Kowe The Ewok1 votes

Don't they teach % in school anymore?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbCqWMIT-Pk#t=52

0/4/2 Zed 100-0'ing a 2/1/5 Pantheon beneath a turret.

supes the lost1 votes

The Pantheon had brutalizer, spirit of the elder lizard, and the magic resist boots, but I still fully agree that zed's kit does a lot of damage while still being very safe.

Kuroi861 votes

Lets see, is this the video I remember from before.

Ah yes, the Zed who only has 133 farm.

The Pantheon who has no armor.

Yes, this proves... that Pantheon needs some friggen armor.

Tik1152 votes

I agree with Zeds safety, he has next to no risk and with his Q basically being free theres no downsides, its why he's a contested pick all the time.

My idea for balance? increase his Q energy cost OR, make it so he can't teleport back to his shadow that appears with his ult, ether kill his safe poking or kill his safe escapes (Seriously how many times have you have a zed ult you when riding the thresh lantern only for him to ult all the way back and you losing a ton of health by his ult alone)

WhereTheNamesAt3 votes

so you want to see Zed gutted…nice to know

The Ellimiist2 votes

Id rather see him deleted and just buff talon xD

WhereTheNamesAt1 votes

NO! If they buff Talon he will become FoTM and he will be nerfed harder and be much weaker…don't take away my freelo

The Ellimiist1 votes

My main point is just that when I play zed or talon they are both extremely similar in the way they lane, using a midrange nuker to farm and harass and the ults are similar in that they help close the gap and do burst. The difference is just that as zed I have no mana and I can escape from pretty much anything.

Giovarco1 votes

And Talon has 0 escape outside his ult and he's countered by pink wards.

Kuroi861 votes

If you lost a ton of damage from his ult alone without anything else, then he was fed and you were smart to run.

His Q is a shorter range than you think, most mages will out range him and can harass him pretty hard in lane.

Just be careful and avoid the shadow abilities as that's likely how he's going to try to harass you the most.

Tik1151 votes

The thing is with Zed is he can go in, faceroll all his keys and then press R again before your team can react (Unless you have a guy who is super observant with like 20 ping) and suddenly he's a safe distance (because you would be backpeddeling to avoid him to get some distance) and kill or not he comes out on top, if it wasn't for the fact that he can return to his shadow at around 2-3 times his cast range then he wouldn't be so risk free.

Hell I complain about Lee being broken all the time but at least unlike Zed Lee has a maximum distance that isn't halfway down the rift

Weegeechai1 votes

Armor counters hms a ton, a qss/GA/Banshee will screw him up.

Kuroi861 votes

Actually Lee can out range Zed if Lee' target tries to burn their escapes. Also, and this is coming from some first hand experience. If you're able to ult as Zed, faceroll, and then just R again, either you're sickeningly fed, your target was almost dead already, or you're playing against bots.

Weegeechai1 votes

His energy costs are very high if you cant hit your abilities with your shadow. Also, he is strong at 1v1s like Fizz, so do not complain about his strong laning as he falls off late

Toothless Lion2 votes

Zed's passive shouldn't apply to minions. It just shouldn't. It makes last hitting WAY too easy.

LUS Montplaisir1 votes

And? It's a bonus to playing him in lanes, you get the same effects with Jarvan and Kalista. Should their easy minion-take be punished too? Because I promise it's just as dangerous.

Giovarco1 votes

J4 is a jungler and Kalista is an adc. I can't see the link.

LUS Montplaisir1 votes

Dude, J4 isn't just a jungler; the two I mentioned are actually a wicked bot lane combo, and he's seen frequently top lane as well; hell, Ocelot used to play him mid and that's still viable. He can go literally anywhere. So he definitely has a link to farming in lane. As for Kalista...farming in lane is kind of her job? Why make it easier? Although I supposed you could make the case that it's reliant upon the other person in the lane =/

Junkο1 votes

That's literally the only reason it exists.

causeimdabatman1 votes

Lol kids are still complaining about zed!? Jeez people must suck at this game XD want to win lane against zed? pick Malzahar and every time zed tries to cs or even leave his tower q or e him then at level 6 if he tries to go in ult and you win.

PatMcGroyn1 votes

{quoted}

Lol kids are still complaining about zed!? Jeez people must suck at this game XD want to win lane against zed? pick Malzahar and every time zed tries to cs or even leave his tower q or e him then at level 6 if he tries to go in ult and you win.

A good Zed will build an early QSS if he's trying to duel Malz. Without his ult, Zed shits on Malz in a 1v1. If Malz also buys a QSS, he's at the disadvantage of having built MR which is useless against Zed, stat wise. If he goes for the Zhonya's route, it takes a full 2k gold more to get that item than QSS, and most Malz players would rather go for the early RoA because it synergizes really well with his playstyle.

Junkο1 votes

I tried doing that against Malz once. Sadly even with QSS his strong point and click DoT and % hp damage on W make it impossible for you to fight Malz.

PatMcGroyn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbowe Dash,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=kxNnAA9a,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2015-01-02T18:27:47.550+0000)

I tried doing that against Malz once. Sadly even with QSS his strong point and click DoT and % hp damage on W make it impossible for you to fight Malz.

With a QSS, Zed should easily be able to beat Malz in a 1v1. The MR and cleanse mitigates so much of Malz' combo damage. You can easily dodge Malz' W and Q using your Shadows, and should be able to kill Malz with a well executed Death Mark combo.

Junkο1 votes

You can kill Malz with QSS yea, but you will die with him. You still fight on his W, you still take his ultimate damage. You either get out or you both die.

And that's only if Malz doesn't harass the shit out of you with Es everytime it would summon a voidling

Leblancs Boob1 votes

The funny thing is an assassin that makes Orianna look like a risky pick. Assassins should be high risk high reward, yet Zed somehow manages to be Low risk high reward

A Fiery Rundas1 votes

{quoted}

I find Zed a very interesting champion and fun to play, I guess. However, I don't understand why, as an assassin, he's supposed to be a safe pick. An assassin should be never safe, be superweak pre-6 and 100-0s a squishy post-6. If you play Katarina or Akali, you know what I mean saying "be superweak pre-6 and 100-0 a squishy post-6". But why is he so safe?

  • Katarina's Q (which seems somehow Zed's Q) has 10 / 9.5 / 9 / 8.5 / 8 of cooldown on her Q , so often she has to last hit with AA and expose herself to enemy harass without counterplay. On the contrary, Zed can last hit for free with his Q because it has a static 6 seconds of cooldown. I propose a nerf to the CD.
  • Zed passive is very useful because he's an assassin and helps to execute enemy champions. However, the same passive is super useful to last hit minions with AAs. On the contrary, other assassins has a lot of problems last hitting with AA because of low AD. An example is Talon, who should avoid to farm with W because he hasn't an infinite mana pool like Zed, even if he has item 2041 and item 2004. What I propose is: Zed's passive doesn't work with minions.

I propose these changes not because I hate Zed or he hasn't counterplay, but because he can farm too easily pre-6 without dying. Besides, I didn't propose nerf to his damage because I think that are ok.

Surprised you didn't talk about his shadows, and also for people who do complain about his shadows, stop. I hated zed for a long time, then I played him. His 100-0 burst on a champ then popping away with all of your health is surprisingly harder than it looks. But with the farming, zeds q does only a good amount of dmg to the first enemy struck, and doesn't do as much dmg when It hits enemies behind it. The passive shouldn't work on LANE minions, but should for monsters in the jungle. That's my two cents

Weegeechai1 votes

Zed executes his burst rather slow with the deathmark cleansable with QSS, the mark also has a delay and it may prove problematic if the enemy can react with a heal or shield. Zed's lategame is rather lackluster compared to other assasins like Kata and Talon, as his ult isn't on a super low cooldown COMPARED to someone like Talon, whenever he fails an assasination attempt, he is very weak at taking down targets.

Cindikle1 votes

Zed is strong because the game doesn't revolve around late game ADCs and siege champions.

He was weaker when the enemy team would out poke his team with a Ziggs or Xerath. And you couldn't dive their turrets without the wave getting cleared in a few seconds.

But that's not good excuse.

IMO change his Q to be based off total AD instead of bonus. This means that part of it's damage will have to be dependent on level. Thus have it at rank 3 at level 5 wont be as strong. I don't think it'd fix everything. But it would make his harass weaker in lane.

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