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Thread about Talon's lore, interactions, gameplay and kit + rework suggestion

Giovarco··11 votes·6,418 views

----- WHO AM I? ----- Hi guys. I'm Giovarco, I'm italian and I play in EUW. I like playing support and underplayed champions like Urgot, Brand, Talon and so on. Well, Talon used to be unpopular, as long as the world started playing him in competitive and his silence was removed: legit. Now I'm here to discuss about Talon lore, interactions, gameplay and kit and propose some solution. Note that this isn't a QQ thread. I know that Talon is viable as he is at the moment, but if you love him like me, you'll read this thread for him. Please, don't forget English isn't my mother language, so there could be some mistakes here and there. I beg some mod to edit the thread, if needed.

----- TALON'S LORE ----- We all know the lore of Talon: he's an assassin (after all, he murdered also his "friend" Kavin) and the night darkness is his bread and butter. It's also clear the relationship between him and the Du Coteau family, especially Katarina and General Marcus, so I won't mention it. However, if you don't remember it and you mumble italian, his lore is summarized here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBHp-HhuhEE&list=UUvGGrA6lT7iysruoP2_XHKQ

I just wanted to make you note that Talon is the Blade's Shadow. This name has reason to exist because Talon is a night assassin, but the "shadow part" of his kit don't stand out, unlike Zed. Actually, I think there's barely shadows in his kit. Now, if you're thinking about his Shadow Assault, I believe that "being a shadow" == "being invisible". I hope my idea is clear because I know I didn't explain it very well. I believe that we could care more about his "shadow part".

----- TALON'S INTERACTIONS ----- It's incredible how Talon's lore is so interesting and there's no interaction with other characters. I'll propose something here:

Talon VS Katarina :

  1. Talon: What about some workout, my sister?
  2. Let's fight in the name of Marcus!

Talon VS Cassiopeia :

  1. Talon: One day you'll accept me.

Talon VS Garen :

  1. Garen, treat my sister well.

Talon VS Swain :

  1. Now I'll force you to say what you know, Swain!

Well, maybe my translations aren't perfect, but I hope the meanings are clear.

----- TALON'S GAMEPLAY ----- Talon is an assassin and no one doubts it. However, Talon have some flaw who an assassin shouldn't have and other issues:

  • Talon can 100-0 an enemy in less than 1 second. "What a news! He's an assassin" you think. Well, yes he is, but champions like Zed and the like needs to undertake your murder to obtain bonus damage. Talon insta-clicks R two times to get the whole damage = low counterplay
  • He hasn't a non-ultimate escape ability in his kit, unlike other assassins
  • His Cutthroat is an insta-flash behind his target = high risk, high reward/punishment, low counterplay
  • He's the only assassin without mobility. We can't exactly call his Shadow Assault or his Cutthroat "mobility"
  • His kit is a "bubble of percentages": Cutthroat amplify Talon damage for a %, but also his passive can. Percentages who stacks (I guess) multiplicatively are hard to balance, unlike constants.
  • Talon is a kill-or-get-killed champion unlike Zed. In this sense, Talon is like Katarina, but without a reset passive (letting the macro-differences between these champions go). Indeed Katarina can obtain a reset in his Shunpo and jump to a mate or a ward to bolt from the teamfight.

----- TALON KIT REWORK SUGGESTION: 1st ATTEMPT ----- From this reasoning, I prepared a rework suggestion. I know Talon's kit is ok as it is, but I believe that fringe for improvement always exists.

PASSIVE: MERCY Talon's basic attacks against targets below 50% health applies Grievous Wounds and make them to bleed for X% of the target's maximum health as bonus magic damage during 3 seconds. This effect can only occur on the same target once every few seconds.

Q: NOXIAN DIPLOMACY

Talon's next autoattack within the next 6 seconds deals bonus physical damage. If Talon is behind his target, he slows him and the enemy champions in a X-range cone behind him for 99% for 0.50 seconds.

COMMENT: Now Talon is subsidized to wait in ambush his victims and is rewarded if attacks from behind.

W: RAKE

ACTIVE: Talon sends out a volley of daggers in a cone that then quickly return back to him, dealing physical damage to any enemies it passes through. Additionally the enemy is slowed for 2 seconds, refreshing the duration of the slow if they are hit twice.

COMMENT: Talon can keep on harassing his enemy in lane, but losing his slowing effect allows your enemy to counter damage more easily.

E: SHADOW ASSAULT Talon cover himself with his mantle and become an untargetable shadow. The shadow moves forward in a line. Rectivate this ability reveals Talon to the shadow's current location.

[OPTIONAL: His next basic attack within 2 seconds is a critically strike with modified base critical damage.]

COMMENT: Now Talon can't flash behind his target outright, but he has the mobility and the joke potential that he always wished (even if in a long cooldown), while giving more reaction time (and counterplay) to his enemy. Another important thing is that now there's a "shadow part" in his kit.

R: BLADES' AVALANCHE ACTIVE: Talon disperses blades outwards in a 500-radius ring and gains stealth for up to 2.5 seconds while gaining 40% movement speed. When Talon emerges from stealth, the blades converge on his location. When the ring of blades expands and contracts, enemies hit receive physical damage. Each enemy can only be damaged once at the start of the ability and once at the end.

PASSIVE: If Talon scores a kill or an assist, Shadow Assault's cooldown is reset and Talon gains X% movement speed for 2 seconds.

COMMENT: The ultimate is the same and reward Talon for scoring a kill or an assist. The movement speed and the reset on Shadow assault can be useful as an escape or to chase en route enemies. Note that Talon can't obtain a reset pre-6, so he's weaker than before pre-6, but has more killing potential post-6.

----- **TALON KIT REWORK SUGGESTION: 1st ATTEMPT -> PROBLEMS ** ----- I made this section because that was so hard for me to organize all the idea that rise here, thanks to your comments. I'll update it little by little and propose a new rework below.

  • Talon doesn't fit his lore of Medieval Rogue / dagger master:

1 The Knife Fight, that has a long historical tradition both in Italy (Romans were masters of short blades combat) and rural Europe, both in tropical areas. 2 The Knife-Throw, who is a common combat style in every culture. 3 The Assassin style, that combines a lot of moves from oriental tradition of martial arts.

  • No strong interactions, no jukes potential
  • Conditional slows are bad
  • The Zed-like passive seems not work with Talon and removed a lot of damage on his Q
  1. Talon has a lot of AoE damage, even if he's used more like a single-target assassin: W is very important, especially in laning phase. It don't need more damage, otherwise Talon will be too strong pre-6.
  2. Giving more damage on Q make Talon more dependent to his Q
  3. We need more interactions with his passive: a way to get more damage
  • Cutthroat is the best gap-closing in the game, but has low counterplay. We need to improve his mechanics.

----- TALON KIT REWORK SUGGESTION: 2st ATTEMPT -----

PASSIVE: MERCY PASSIVE: Talon deals X% amplyfied damage against bleeding champions. PASSIVE: When Talon moves towards a bleeding enemy champion, he gains X movement speed.

COMMENT: Now Talon has more interaction with his passive: a new way to get more damage and more mobility

Q: NOXIAN DIPLOMACY ACTIVE: Talon's next autoattack within the next 6 seconds deals bonus physical damage and makes the enemy champion bleed for X seconds, dealing additional physical damage depending on the enemy missing health each second for the duration.

PASSIVE: Every three consecutive basic attacks against an enemy champions deal bonus magic depending on the target's missing health.

COMMENT: Essentially the same ability, but the bleed deals less damage. In compensation, he gets movement speed from his passive and he's subsidized to auto-attacks his victim. However, auto-attacking make Talon more susceptible to skill-shots.

W: RAKE ACTIVE: Talon sends out a volley of daggers in a cone that then quickly return back to him, dealing physical damage to any enemies it passes through. Additionally the enemy is slowed for 2 seconds, refreshing the duration of the slow if they are hit twice.

Each enemy can only be damaged once at the start of the ability and once at the end.

COMMENT: No changes

E: CUTTHROAT FIRST ACTIVATION: Talon throws a blade in a lane that will mark the first enemy champion or jungle monster (not minions), dealing low *magic * damage and granting sight of their location to Talon. SECOND ACTIVATION: Talon can reactivate the ability within a (moderate/high) X-range to dematerialize himself in a shadow and reappear in 0.5 seconds behind his target, slowing him for 99% for 0.25 seconds.

PASSIVE: When Talon scores a kill or an assist, Cutthroat cooldown is reset / reduced by a %.

COMMENT: Now you're a true dagger master! Talon is rewarded with the best gap-closing in the game, if he hits his blade, otherwise punished because he loses his only gap-closing and escape ability. If Talon gets ganked, he can take advantage of jungle monster to vanish over the wall. His blades aren't a good harassing tool because they deals very low damage and his damage is magical, so doesn't scale with armor penetration, that Talon is supposed to build early game. In teamfight, If Talon murder his victim, he has more chance to escape with jungle monsters. As you can see, now Talon needs to take advantage of ambient (jungle) to be more effective / mobile. Cutthroat low counterplay is solved because now It's a skillshot. Talon has juke potential because he can E a jungle monster and goes to the opposite direction and activates the ability if someone chases you.

R: SHADOW ASSAULT ACTIVE: Talon disperses blades outwards in a 500-radius ring and gains stealth for up to 2.5 seconds while gaining 40% movement speed. When Talon emerges from stealth, the blades converge on his location. When the ring of blades expands and contracts, enemies hit receive physical damage. Each enemy can only be damaged once at the start of the ability and once at the end.

----- CONCLUSIONS ----- Guys, I'm so sorry for the wall of text. I hope this was interesting and one rioter will read it. I spended a lot of hours to write and translate it, so don't write only "This won't work", "This rework is shit" please. I would like a constructive conversation in the name of our hero Talon . Don't forget to vote (positively or negatively) please.

23 Comments

Jay Kenton3 votes

The problem with Talon is that the connection between his concept (Medieval Rogue) and his kit is not-existant, just from his model.

He should be a master with daggers. There are 3 fightstyles with daggers in the real world:

1 The Knife Fight, that has a long historical tradition both in Italy (Romans were masters of short blades combat) and rural Europe, both in tropical areas. 2 The Knife-Throw, who is a common combat style in every culture. 3 The Assassin style, that combines a lot of moves from oriental tradition of martial arts.

Notice that Talon totally doesn't feel as a he fights with these styles. First of all there are a lot of "shuriken" style in his kit that definitely do not fit with his concept. Not only, his blade it's a joke as is a giant dagger that he uses to pierce the enemy (not to stab). Also, his mantle it's a joke too. Does not cover him and in real life would be loud as hell with all that metal attached.

In the end, a real Rougue it's a fighter who deal a lot with environment to outsmart his opponent. Talon is totally the opposite. He has nothing to "juke", it's an all-in champion without very strong interactions (his silence was removed, too). A good example of a Rougue is Kha'Zix. First of all is very mobile. He can use elements of terrain to get a positional advantage. Second: he has a very definite position of strenght when he can isolate the enemy or stay not visible for short times.

I will upvote your post for visibility but I think that Talon's issue needs a way more radical solution that the one.

Talon should interact a lot with bushes, in example.

Giovarco1 votes

Jay, Thanks for your analysis.

So, do you think that He's a grey area? It's interesting. Talon is an old champion and old champions used to have these design problems, unlike the recent champions like Gnar, Azir, Kalista and so on, who are very original and have marked strength and weakness. The main problem is that, yes, Talon is an assassin, but he hasn't interesting mechanics and no interaction with ambient or enemies. Well, not even some assassins interact with the ambient like Khazix, but other ones simply have the mobility to jump over the wall and take by surprise.

I believe that being an assassin isn't just 100-0 a squishy, but also deserve it with caution and patient.

From the point of view of the kit, I guess Talon and Zed aren't so distant, but Talon needs adjustments on his E and R to work properly / be an healthy assassin.

P.S.: Thanks for you upvote and, again, your comment. Constructive conversations amuse me Teemo

Giovarco1 votes

P.S: I proposed a second rework.

Akeito2 votes

No thanks, not another reset beast. At least you have to spam more with Kat, now with Talon in a teamfight all you need to do is blow one up and RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

You literally copy Zed passive, make it a dot and give it a utility.

I can't understand your grammar in E, so I assume that

  • Talon turn invis
  • Send a shadow walking foward
  • Reactive switch Talon to the Shadow.

This is a delayed Zed W without skill mimick and an invis.

Almost your whole kit is based on Zed and Kat to create, all you did on Q and W is switch the slow around and it only active when he hit someone from behind.

Giovarco1 votes

It seems like you're accusing me for plagiarism, aren't you?

Talon don't reset all his cooldown like Katarina, just on his Shadow Assault, that deals no damage. The reset isn't mandatory... Actually nothing is mandatory and the whole thread is just an advice. I imagined Talon's E like a mix of Lissandra's E and Vladimir's W.

This is a delayed Zed W without skill mimick and an invis.

Almost your whole kit is based on Zed and Kat to create, all you did on Q and W is switch the slow around and it only active when he hit someone from behind.

Your reasoning is nosense. Talon's bleed on Q looks like Darius passive, so did Riot copied and pasted the same skill in different champions? Riot moved Sion's E passive to his W. Can't we move Talon's slow on his Q?

This was a "rework suggestion" not a "complete rework suggestion".

SouL1ess2 votes

But you didn't move the good slow onto Q.

You removed Rake's slow when it was actually significant and you added the least significant slow, which is on current Cutthroat, to Q.

Giovarco1 votes

Hi Soul. Thanks for your comment dude. Your observation is legit. Maybe his W was good as it was, but I don't think that assassins should have more than one low CC. So if we add it on W, we have to remove it from Q and add some interesting mechanic on Q. Do you have some idea?

Giovarco1 votes

P.S: I proposed a second rework.

Kuroi861 votes

Actually, if I read correctly, the only aspect reset by kills would be his initiate/escape, the shadow dash ability he described.

It's going to be tough working shadow aspects into any other champ because... well, how else would we work shadows outside of the Zed shadow effect or just becoming invisible? (Genuine question, I'm pondering it right now but not really coming up with anything outside of copy mechanics but we already have that.)

Giovarco1 votes

Thanks for your comment, Kuroi. I know maybe that changing the name of ultimade and E made misunderstanding.

I agree with you. Zed is the shadow personified now. All your thought/ideas/questions are welcome here.

Giovarco1 votes

P.S: I proposed a second rework.

Giovarco2 votes

Don't forget to vote (positively or negatively) please.

SouL1ess2 votes

I am not trying to be hypocritical, but here are my thoughts regarding your post:

Conditional slow that has all the problems with the current Cutthroat slow on Q is a nerf.

I have to know how fast does new E shadow move for me to understand its use - however, that is just so similar to Zed.

Passive only activates when enemy goes below 50% health - probably a nerf in gameplay aspect, don't know what to exactly expect. You have no effective gap closers, no effective slows, and if you reach in range to use your AAs (because you sure as hell isn't going to engage with a CC-less Rake) you will hardly take off 50% HP without the use of Rake and Ult, and then you are not in position to AA the enemy anymore. Passive is also similar to Zed - Zed has arguably the best assassin passive, but I don't know if putting the passive on Talon will work for him.

Noxian Diplomacy losing the bleed is losing 33% of the ability's damage.

Cutthroat losing the 15% damage amp is, well, losing 15% damage. Talon loses a whole lot of damage on his kit and you better hope the passive gives more than 15-20% of the enemy's max health in damage, because you lost about 200-500 damage from mid to late game.

As I said before, new E makes or breaks this kit. Cutthroat is the BEST gap-closer in the game for it's instantaneous velocity. Remove that and you removed the actual best part of Talon's kit. The new Shadow Cloak needs to make it up.

You can't put damage anywhere on Talon's kit because ult is AoE (and Riot won't agree), Rake is AoE and poke skill and giving it more damage will make Talon have a easy laning phase, and giving more damage on Q is not the best idea because that skill itself contributes to 25% of Talon's burst, and more damage on that skill makes Talon all dependent on a single skill. You can put the damage in passive but as I mentioned, how will you be able to get the opponent to below 50% health is an issue itself.

So honestly speaking:

  1. CC on Talon got hardcore nerfed
  2. ~20% of Talon's damage removed
  3. More stealth added in - more vulnerable to Oracles and Vision wards (except in silver league and below)
  4. Ambiguous replacement for the best gapcloser in the game

I would prefer the live version of Talon over this iteration of Talon.

Giovarco1 votes

Thanks again for the second comment Soul.

Conditional slow that has all the problems with the current Cutthroat slow on Q is a nerf.

I know what you mean. I also noticed that my rework is more a nerf than an improvement in his kit. I'll solve it with your ideas!

I have to know how fast does new E shadow move for me to understand its use - however, that is just so similar to Zed

I imagined Talon's E like a mix of Lissandra's E and Vladimir's W, but faster than Lissandra's E and slower than Zed's W. You can also go over a wall like Lissandra and unlike Vladimir.

Passive only activates when enemy goes below 50% health - probably a nerf in gameplay aspect, don't know what to exactly expect. You have no effective gap closers, no effective slows, and if you reach in range to use your AAs (because you sure as hell isn't going to engage with a CC-less Rake) you will hardly take off 50% HP without the use of Rake and Ult, and then you are not in position to AA the enemy anymore. Passive is also similar to Zed - Zed has arguably the best assassin passive, but I don't know if putting the passive on Talon will work for him.

What you says ( you wasn't the only one ) seems legit. As Talon is an assassin, he indeed needs a passive that does damage. Do you have some spark?

Noxian Diplomacy losing the bleed is losing 33% of the ability's damage.

Cutthroat losing the 15% damage amp is, well, losing 15% damage. Talon loses a whole lot of damage on his kit and you better hope the passive gives more than 15-20% of the enemy's max health in damage, because you lost about 200-500 damage from mid to late game.

Your worry is understandable. I didn't write numbers or percentages because I'm not an expert about balancing. I just wrote "X% damage" or "X physical damage", but yea you're right however.

As I said before, new E makes or breaks this kit. Cutthroat is the BEST gap-closer in the game for it's instantaneous velocity. Remove that and you removed the actual best part of Talon's kit. The new Shadow Cloak needs to make it up.

Well, I know that it's the best gap-closer of the game, but I believe that insta-gap-closings aren't healthy. This is indeed my opinion. I have no idea how to improve the counter play of this skill because it's like a flash, nothing more. Ideas?

You can't put damage anywhere on Talon's kit because ult is AoE (and Riot won't agree), Rake is AoE and poke skill and giving it more damage will make Talon have a easy laning phase, and giving more damage on Q is not the best idea because that skill itself contributes to 25% of Talon's burst, and more damage on that skill makes Talon all dependent on a single skill. You can put the damage in passive but as I mentioned, how will you be able to get the opponent to below 50% health is an issue itself.

Understood and I agree. I would like just to mention that it's true that Rake is AoE, but hasn't huge range. Talon can't bully Xerath or Ziggs easily, even if he can always 100-0 them because they are so squishy... Talon has lots of AoE skill, but I see him like a more single-target assassin like Khazix and not a Katarina 2.0 or Yasuo, in a sense.

So honestly speaking:

CC on Talon got hardcore nerfed ~20% of Talon's damage removed More stealth added in - more vulnerable to Oracles and Vision wards (except in silver league and below) Ambiguous replacement for the best gapcloser in the game

I would prefer the live version of Talon over this iteration of Talon.

Well his E isn't an invisibility, like I explained, but yea your points are reasonable. I'm here if you have other ideas, comments and so on.

And, No, you don't seems hypocrital because you argued (discussed?) your comment :)

Giovarco1 votes

P.S: I proposed a second rework.

Giovarco2 votes

Notes about other external comments:

Inube Carrots writes in newsoflegends.com :

Your comment is really appreciated, dude :) I understand what you say about Talon. I like Talon as a character, but I think that he shouldn't delete champion (if not fed), like you want to delete a file and you drag it to the trash. I think his kit is ok and doesn't need a lot of work to improve his counter play.

Feel free to write your thoughts / ideas about Talon here, if you can't write in the thread. I normally can't write in Board NA, but If I login in EUW forum (in general discussion), I can write in Board NA. It's strange ^_^"

Drachen writes in newsoflegends.com:

I'm glad to see some folks are taking initiative to improve Talon.

Solerian1 votes

Drachen is me, btw =)

Giovarco1 votes

What a news! Welcome back :)

Solerian1 votes

Coming from a Talon main (if you haven't guessed yet), I sincerely appreciate you taking an effort to improve him. Riot could take a page from your book and show some initiative as well.

I'm not a fan of the reworks you have here, but you do raise some important issues. 1) The "Shadow" part of him is not expressed well enough. 2) He has no effective escapes, which unfortunately this meta warrants.

I do not agree with him being a kill-or-get-killed champion. Talon is a somewhat effective duelist when you make complete use of his Passive. Eventually, or at least in my build, you're going to want to build a Youmuu's and Randuin's, which help significantly in that respect. Honestly, many matchups he wont survive, but we cant give a Fighter's job to an Assassin.

Regarding his abilities:

  1. The bleed on Noxian Diplomacy is pretty weak, honestly. A decent way to balance would be to move initial damage to the bleed. Perhaps more innovation could be used here since its really just a chunk of damage.
  2. Rake is amazing. I don't think it needs to be changed at all. You can't effectively use it to wave clear until level 7, so it's not broken in that respect. Its got a small range, so if mid lanes play safe they won't get poked as often. Lets be honest, so many AP mids are based off poke
  3. Cutthroat, unless you want to change the name, needs to put Talon behind his target. Perhaps adding a Backstab damage modifier would command more skill and add some counterplay by the target (turning around, for example)
  4. Shadow Assault is an effective and low-cost (since the cooldown is quite low) escape. It's also an AoE nuke, and I honestly love that about Talon. Perhaps lowering the cooldown even more but gutting the damage would be an effective addition of an escape.

I personally do not see a huge issue with Talon's kit besides the lack of an escape. He is a snowball machine, in fact I believe he snowballs harder than others. I like that he is an ALL-IN ASSASSIN. He deletes, simple as that. I don't expect many fans of other widely used, meta-conforming assassins to understand this.

Giovarco1 votes

Coming from a Talon main (if you haven't guess yet), I sincerely appreciate you taking more effort to work on this guy than Riot seems to.

Thanks dude for your comment.

I always played supports and Talon was my first assassin. I'm not an assassin inside, but somehow I feel in love with him, so I think that this work is due.

I'm not a fan of the reworks you have here, but you do raise some important issues. 1) The "Shadow" part of him is not expressed well enough. 2) He has no effective escapes, which unfortunately this meta warrants.

I do not agree with him being a kill-or-get-killed champion. Talon is a somewhat effective duelist when you make complete use of his Passive. Eventually, or at least in my build, you're going to want to build a Youmuu's and Randuin's, which help significantly in that respect. Honestly, many matchups he wont survive, but an we cant give a Fighter's job to an Assassin.

I sincerely don't like the meta (I play only who I like), but I understand the need of an escape in competitive plays. I believe also champions need strenght and weakness. One of the worst weakness is not having an escape. Besides, as we noticed, It's hard to put shadows in Talon's kit because the shadow emblem is Zed, at the moment, so I tried somehow to patch it. Not the best outcome, but better than nothing ^_^

Regarding his abilities:

  1. The bleed on Noxian Diplomacy is pretty weak, honestly. A decent way to balance would be to move initial damage to the bleed.
  2. Rake is amazing. I don't think it needs to be changed at all. You can't effectively use it to wave clear until level 7, so it's not broken in that respect.
  3. Cutthroat, unless you want to change the name, needs to put Talon behind his target. Perhaps adding a Backstab damage modifier would command more skill and add some counterplay by the target (turning around, for example)
  4. Shadow Assault is an effective and low-cost (since the cooldown is quite low) escape. It's also an AoE nuke, and I honestly love that about Talon. Perhaps lowering the cooldown even more but gutting the damage would be an effective addition of an escape.
  1. This is undeaniable. So, do you think that we should reduce his base damage, but increase his base bleeding damage? I don't know. In this way, It would seems that Talon's Q don't deal damage and Talon isn't propeled to trade more / over-extend to get a kill.
  2. I completely agree.
  3. I really didn't understand. Are you thinking that Talon's E needs a passive like Shaco's passive?
  4. Cutting the damage to an assassin doesn't seem a good idea. After all, if you ward your lane, you have normally enought time to react, maybe using the Cutthroat on the jungler, if he comes from behind.

I personally do not see a huge issue with Talon's kit besides the lack of an escape. He is a snowball machine, in fact I believe he snowballs harder than others. I like that he is an ALL-IN ASSASSIN, which is what I believe all assassins should be. He deletes, simple as that. I don't expect many fans of other widely used, meta-conforming assassins to understand this.

Well, I don't doubt Talon is an assassin or a snowball machine. After all, if an assassin gets early kills, he has a right to snowball out of control, otherwise to fall behind being useless. I'll mention an answer I wrote to a guy:

I understand what you say about Talon. I like Talon as a character, but I think that he shouldn't delete champion (if not fed), like you want to delete a file and you drag it to the trash. I think his kit is ok and doesn't need a lot of work to improve his counter play.

I really hate assassins who can stick to target without counterplay (Akali, I'm seeing you). A lot of Akali abuses of his ulti like an harassment tool, as It has a very low recharge cooldown and I believe It's not right. Besides, there's Talon, who can 100-0 his enemy at level 6 with armor penetration runes... I've just the impression that Zed has more counter play than Talon. Zed has lower burst than Talon, but Talon hasn't escape, unlike Zed. I feel really torn about it. I think that Talon needs more mechanics. Satisfaction of killing an enemy with an assassin shouldn't arrive just killing him, but also doing it with diligence and dedication. Maybe I can't make myself clear... I don't speak English perfectly :C

Solerian1 votes

The meta is what is killing this game. Champions seem to continuously blend together and have a distinct pattern among each others (typically one line damage ability, some sort of escape, and a Utility ability). I don't like this. I like each champions to have their own, unique styles.

I guess we have had different experiences, but out of all the champions I played, Talon snowballs and carries the hardest. After one or two kills, he is guaranteed his lane and very possibly the game. Hell, I feel Talon's counterplay comes from his ability to fall behind.

Back to the abilities, as a list makes it easiest to discuss them:

  1. I intend to keep the damage the same with my suggestion, however it is merely shifted to the bleed, and the bleed be unaffected by Mercy (whereas the Q's initial damage is). I feel that's a successful way to balance him, where the damage will be somewhat lesser considering Mercy is ready. It'll also get those pesky mid laners that flash out when they're low, but you still snag the kill. Maybe even those ADCs you gank at bot lane who ran to tower, thinking they'll live.

  2. Rake is what I feel makes Talon.. well, Talon. His daggers are his icon, and as a result, the ability must be awesome. It is.

  3. Yes, I guess I should have mentioned Shaco's passive. I think it'd be a pretty good idea. A Talon would make use of this ability by Raking or Noxian Diplomacy-ing real fast to get that damage buff. It adds counterplay, which some say he lacks. Since it will be harder to get that increased damage, I say we buff the percentage.

  4. Reducing the damage was just an idea to somehow give Talon a decent escape. I can't see adding an escape without removing one of his prior abilities, and I do not believe that's a good idea. Hell, even now I consider his E/R to be effective escapes, but I've had a good bit of practice with him.

Basically, I don't think Talon should be put in terms with Zed. Zed may be the dominant AD mid assassin, but there's a way we can improve Talon to remain unique while also being universally agreed top tier. I think those who want him to become meta conforming are just unable to play any other type of champion besides the generic, safe champions assassins the meta tries to enforce.

I suppose we may just disagree about what makes an assassin fulfilling. I really love the SFX with Talon's kit, and hearing the snap and metal after gutting an enemy is awesome.

Your English is also quite easy to read, so give yourself a break :)

On a side note, bring back the Silence, Rito.

Giovarco1 votes

The meta is what is killing this game. Champions seem to continuously blend together and have a distinct pattern among each others (typically one line damage ability, some sort of escape, and a Utility ability). I don't like this. I like each champions to have their own, unique styles.

Well, I really think that Rito is doing a great job with these new champions: Rek Sai, Gnar, Azir... I think they are so good studied and original. On the contrary, in the past Riot used to be very unclear during design of champions. For exaple, Swain, who is one of my favorite champions, is called the Master Tactician. Well, his kit doesn't reproduce this aspect of Master Tactician. But hey, I like him anyway despite his incongruities ^^

Back to the abilities, as a list makes it easiest to discuss them:

1 I intend to keep the damage the same with my suggestion, however it is merely shifted to the bleed, and the bleed be unaffected by Mercy (whereas the Q's initial damage is). I feel that's a successful way to balance him, where the damage will be somewhat lesser considering Mercy is ready. It'll also get those pesky mid laners that flash out when they're low, but you still snag the kill. Maybe even those ADCs you gank at bot lane who ran to tower, thinking they'll live.

2 Rake is what I feel makes Talon.. well, Talon. His daggers are his icon, and as a result, the ability must be awesome. It is.

3 Yes, I guess I should have mentioned Shaco's passive. I think it'd be a pretty good idea. A Talon would make use of this ability by Raking or Noxian Diplomacy-ing real fast to get that damage buff. It adds counterplay, which some say he lacks. Since it will be harder to get that increased damage, I say we buff the percentage.

4 Reducing the damage was just an idea to somehow give Talon a decent escape. I can't see adding an escape without removing one of his prior abilities, and I do not believe that's a good idea. Hell, even now I consider his E/R to be effective escapes, but I've had a good bit of practice with him.

  1. I perfectly undestood now. Mh... I don't think that It's not a good idea a free-standing bleeding damage from his passive. It's not a very clear mechanic. However, I find that a good compromise would be to buff the bleed damage depending on the target missing health (even if Talon never compromise :) ). This would allert for the enemy: If you over-extend, you're dead.

  2. Y

  3. I already did think do put something like Shaco's passive in his E, but I felt this was laden down. As I removed his damage buff on his E, I thought I would compensate for it giving a greater % in his passive. After all, his combo pre-rework is E->W->Q->R->R and post-rework, E->E->Q->W->R->R. The damage shouldn't change. The difference is that Talon can activate his passive only with his W pre-rework, but post-rework he can gets all his damage buff with his Q (because his target is bleeding).

  4. Mh... I'm not very convinced, but I think that we shouldn't look at subtleties. Balancing isn't our task. However, i don't exclude it can work :)

Basically, I don't think Talon should be put in terms with Zed. Zed may be the dominant AD mid assassin, but there's a way we can improve Talon to remain unique while also being universally agreed top tier. I think those who want him to become meta conforming are just unable to play any other type of champion besides the generic, safe champions assassins the meta tries to enforce.

Well, I think that Zed isn't so dominant as people say. On the contrary, Talon counter a lot Zed, if well played. I understand that Zed or Orianna can be seen as a safe pick by pro players, but the remaining 99% of normal players shouldn't not copy pro players because they normally fail in it.

I suppose we may just disagree about what makes an assassin fulfilling. I really love the SFX with Talon's kit, and hearing the snap and metal after gutting an enemy is awesome.

and the screams of your enemy when dying ... :) On the contrary, I play champions like Talon , Urgot and Brand because I like their voice: "Your allegiances mean nothing to me.", "Eternal life, endless torment", ""The inferno begins!". I personally think that Italian dubbing are more expressing :)

Your English is also quite easy to read, so give yourself a break :)

Ty :)

On a side note, bring back the Silence, Rito.

Rito pls, this guy knows what he says.

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