57 Comments
Daddy Ants27 votesKai'Sa - Overloaded Pyke - Overloaded Sylas - Overloaded
Neeko - I think she's OK.
Moonscourge5 votesKai'Sa - Overloaded Pyke - Overloaded Sylas - Overloaded
Neeko - I think she's OK.
Here's something that might shock you: Neeko ult is extremely overloaded, yet you don't complain about her and even say she is okay. Why is that? She has just as many things as Pyke, just not a heal, but she can actually build Health and she even has a strong shield.
It's almost like this is a matter of perspective. Every champ has roughtly the same power budget. They are ALL by default "overloaded" around the same level, which just shows how vapid the term itself is. It's as vapid as "toxic" is.
Moonscourge3 votes[{quoted}](name=Snake of Avarice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k7OUHmTF,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-01-28T16:44:42.280+0000)
Here's something that might shock you: Neeko ult is extremely overloaded, yet you don't complain about her and even say she is okay. Why is that? She has just as many things as Pyke, just not a heal, but she can actually build Health and she even has a strong shield.
It's almost like this is a matter of perspective. Every champ has roughtly the same power budget. They are ALL by default "overloaded" around the same level, which just shows how vapid the term itself is. It's as vapid as "toxic" is.
I get downvoted for this, yet anybody still has to prove me wrong.
Neeko ult alone has -a shield -can move/flash during it -HUGE damage -HUGE ratio -HUGE AoE -stuns every target hit
that alone is the entire kit of Annie in a single ability.
Illabethe5 votes-
Her shield is only during her Airborne status. Far cry difference from an Unstoppable to serve the same purpose.
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Her movement acts as a way to signal to opponents how to get away, which they do 80% of the time. Flash is generally the only way to succeed her ult, which means she has no Flash outside her ult.
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Damage is reduced by resist the same as any other magic, and since so much of her power is forced into it, it means by mitigating one skill, you grossly cripple the rest of her.
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The AP and Base damage is far less than Nunu and several other champs with similar skills when all kit points are considered. it also offers less CC.
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The aoe is easy to avoid.
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After 2 seconds.... at which point they have plenty of time to get away.
And no. Its nothing at all like Annie's kit:
-Instant Stun with no chance to avoid it on either her Q, or R. -Annie gets a minion. -Annie can mitigate 40% damage.
Moonscourge1 votes
Her shield is only during her Airborne status. Far cry difference from an Unstoppable to serve the same purpose.
Her movement acts as a way to signal to opponents how to get away, which they do 80% of the time. Flash is generally the only way to succeed her ult, which means she has no Flash outside her ult.
Damage is reduced by resist the same as any other magic, and since so much of her power is forced into it, it means by mitigating one skill, you grossly cripple the rest of her.
The AP and Base damage is far less than Nunu and several other champs with similar skills when all kit points are considered. it also offers less CC.
The aoe is easy to avoid.
After 2 seconds.... at which point they have plenty of time to get away.
And no. Its nothing at all like Annie's kit:
-Instant Stun with no chance to avoid it on either her Q, or R. -Annie gets a minion. -Annie can mitigate 40% damage.
Way to miss the point. It's criticism to these threads listing all of a champions strenghts and then claiming they are OP and "overloaded" when that term is meaningless just like their opinion. And no, you're wrong. It still offers all of these things, because context doesn't matter, right? We're listing what is inside a champion's kit after all. This was a single ability, which I compared to Annie's total kit for the sake of highlighting how dumb the premise is.
I'm only listing effects: Annie Passive: 1 Stun Q: Mana refund W: pbAoEwith no effect itself E: Damage mitigation + Movement speed (and damage mitigation) for Tibbers R: AoE with tiny cast time, long duration and minion that can be fast and auto attack for 100 damage each. Potential for a Flash Aoe Stun, but still useful without Flash.
That's pathetic, yet she works fine as a champion. I'll give it to you that thanks to the added utility on Annie's E and R the raw number of effects is indeed higher than Neeko's ult alone, but once you take a second ability into the mix she still vastly outnumbers her on that front.
Nausicäa 2 votesThis comment is so insanely stupid I just dont even know what to say.
BlackEtherian1 votes[{quoted}](name=Snake of Avarice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k7OUHmTF,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2019-01-28T19:44:22.503+0000)
I get downvoted for this, yet anybody still has to prove me wrong.
Neeko ult alone has -a shield -can move/flash during it -HUGE damage -HUGE ratio -HUGE AoE -stuns every target hit
that alone is the entire kit of Annie in a single ability.
Annie is old and needs a rework, next.
BlackEtherian1 votes[{quoted}](name=Snake of Avarice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k7OUHmTF,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-01-28T16:44:42.280+0000)
Here's something that might shock you: Neeko ult is extremely overloaded, yet you don't complain about her and even say she is okay. Why is that? She has just as many things as Pyke, just not a heal, but she can actually build Health and she even has a strong shield.
It's almost like this is a matter of perspective. Every champ has roughtly the same power budget. They are ALL by default "overloaded" around the same level, which just shows how vapid the term itself is. It's as vapid as "toxic" is.
It's almost as if it takes skill to hit Neeko's ult, you know? The one that stops you in place only to give you a shit shield that won't help you when you're in the middle of 4 champions in a team fight...
Bârd3 votesSylas has some pretty versatile tools, but I wouldn't say he's overloaded, if only because the damage he can get from his own spells is abysmal.
- His passive does less damage per hit than Kayle's E.
- His Q does impressive damage if you land both parts, but is sub-par if you only land one of them (plus the animation is hella long, stopping you from getting passive procs immediaetly).
- His W damage is pathetic even when empowered.
- His E damage is even more pathetic, though you don't exactly take it for the damage so w/e.
Sylas is only as strong as his enemy's ults, because without a good one he sucks ass.
Z3Sleeper8 votesBad numbers =/= not overloaded.
Karfuss2 votesNeeko - I think she's OK.
I beg to differ.
There is nothing more unfun watching Neeko's E root through minions, subsequently losing half your health paired with her Q.
Although for the most part, I agree, Neeko is a pretty solid champion. Although her E ignoring an entire minion wave turns her into an obnoxious hit and run lane bully. I'd be more content making it always a 1.5s root yet working similarly to Lux's Q.
Yara02 votesKai'Sa - Overloaded Pyke - Overloaded Sylas - Overloaded
Neeko - I think she's OK.
Neeko - is gay
Nevrankroaton1 votesI feel sylas is kinda okay... Like for sure he will need some tuning but he need some item/stats to begin to ramp up and I was surprised how his capacity to hijack ultimate is strong without feeling as bonkers as I thought it would be. The fact he is a champion that kinda need to be in your face and use his rotation to fight allow for a lot of interactions from the ennemy team. Also because if he build too tanky he won't have much damage/healing/shield improvement and if he is squishy, well you can pop him up.
I do feel his number are a little high on Q base damage, his ult still feel too strong at lvl 16, his heal will maybe need more tweak (less base amount, slightly better AP ratio) and like, the number one thing... THAT DUDE PUSH LIKE A MAD MAN. WOLLY GOLLY.
Illabethe5 votesToo bad the majority of the community doesn't agree with you if they've ever played 10 games on any of them.
Horse Grenades20 votesIn fact, almost all of the community agrees
Illabethe2 votesNah. They really don't. It's just that people who call foul generally are louder and more prolific than the people who actually try out the champs, assess their strengths and weaknesses, and then learn to counterplay them.
There's a reason why most "OP New champs" don't have high win rates; Even if on a micro level, their kits duel well and are hard to react to, the tradeoff is they do not have an impression on their game's success on a macro level. That's why even with a double Siphoning Strike, Nasus really hasn't changed much. He's still a single target champion who only gains as much as one auto attack will let him. In contrast, more successful champs have aoes, faster move speeds in their builds, and can get away from a lane to help their teams.
Pyke is also a single target champion who on a micro level performs "well" on the surface. But, when you break down what he actually does, his statistics do not support his KDAs. He is essentially a "finisher" 90% of the time, and only 10% duel. His kit has some of the lowest damage output in the game, only hits once per skill, the CC is brief, and much of it is easy to mitigate. So, most Pykes just wait around for teammates to start fights, and help finish those fights at less than 30-20% HP. He may have a good KDA, but generally underperforms in objectives, actual damage, and even CC, because his Q has conditions, he is easy to kill, and E doesn't happen enough to champions per game.
Zoe was never at any point broken. In fact her win rate only went up after her 4th nerf, which moved some of her E and Passive damage into her W, and gave her a higher level 1 move speed on W, drastically reducing her Q/E damage output in the process. (I had a team last night that just kept stepping right on her Bubbles after they had been on the ground 1-1.5 seconds, who we had to block the shot for so many times, but that doesn't make her broken; that makes my teammates stupid). The size of her Q and linear nature of play and the weak structure of her R just makes her easy to kill/shut down/take out of a game. She's predictable, unless you use a ton of summoners around her. Which is also the opponent's ignorance.
Neeko is balanced as hell. Her R in exchange for large hits, is VERY hard to actually hit. You maybe hit it 2-3 times a game, unless a team is constantly trying to kill Neeko, and Neeko has a Zhonya's...... which also makes that team dumb. That's not Neeko being OP. That's the opponents Risking a Zhonya's into a mechanic they SHOULD KNOW. Her E rarely ever gets its full duration root, and her Q is easy to walk out of, and each hit is smaller than the average mage's hits.
Have you also noticed, that other than Pyke, all these champs have a really low play rate? If they were OP, they wouldn't be shelved. Especially with how fun, cute, and visually designed Neeko and Zoe are.
Horse Grenades8 votesProbably just semantics but problematic =/= broken. Problematic champions = unfun, frustrating, and consume bans of champions who probably actually deserve the ban because a lot of times you login and think "I just don't want to deal with Yasuo's windwall bullshit today."
Not to downplay your post, but I agree with you on Neeko, she's really well balanced. I disagree on Pyke and release Zoe, but my thoughts are most "OP New Champs" have poor win rate because they are new. In my opinion, newer champions tend to have completely overloaded kits, and are poorly power-budgeted. The rest of Akali's kit HAD to be underwhelming because they put so much into her shroud.
Their low play rate and proof of their problematic states is their crazy high ban rate
Akali is at a 46% ban rate in Plat +
Pyke at a 32%
Illabethe1 votesYou do realize with the exception of Pyke, every one of them has a detrimental win rate....
Ban rate only expresses micro frustration. The reason high elo bans Akali is because they have 4 other champions to deal with, and dealing with her takes too much focus. She's not OP. She just devotes way too much attention. High elos try to ban "luck" encounters, because the 3-4 times Akali succeeds per game, may very well be a lane push.
Zoe was sub 43% Win rate 6 months after her release. That's not a symptom of "New champion" Pyke isn't new. He's 48%. Irelia is dominating when a lane gives her a lead, but what top champ isn't? Played against a fed Renekton recently? or a fed Darius? Or a fed Garen? they have the same pressure/influence over a game.
Bottom line: Ban rates are indicative of a player base wanting easy, direct kills, not about who kills them, when in high elo. They will ban the people with the most mobility, even if they do not have influential damage.
Z3Sleeper3 votesZoe was sub 43% Win rate 6 months after her release. That's not a symptom of "New champion"
Yeah that's called nerfed to oblivion.
Irelia is dominating when a lane gives her a lead, but what top champ isn't? Played against a fed Renekton recently? or a fed Darius? Or a fed Garen? they have the same pressure/influence over a game.
But do they all toss a ranged stun at you in which a single one of said stuns landing = you either die or have to base or do those other ones have to commit to even attempt to engage?
Bottom line: Ban rates are indicative of a player base wanting easy, direct kills, not about who kills them, when in high elo. They will ban the people with the most mobility, even if they do not have influential damage.
In high elo we ban counters or champions who are just plain broken. Yasuo's banrate is indicative of one or both of two things: 1) noone wants to play against him or/and 2) he counters a ton of champions.
Illabethe1 votes-
That was prior to the major rework/nerfs. At that point, the only major change was the removal of her E's cooldown reduction. Her nerfs "to the ground" - her conversion of sleep into a Cleanse/QSS/Tenacity CC was after that, as was her reallocation of damage.
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Her R can miss and is pretty easy to predict. It's her 3 X Reset on Q that carries her into a destructive pattern along with Steraks. Before the Sterak's she's manageable. But when she has that shield PLUS her Q's heals, she basically heals up while shielded and friggin resets the fight to where it began. If she's shut down, you can delay that Steraks, and she becomes more manageable.
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Nah. There's more factors on aggregate at high elo than just how someone feels about a champion (or at least for me). It's about reducing the game to champs who can be caught, don't reset, and are easy to force into a position where your team can push their base without them being able to stop it. These new mobility champs throw a wrench into that basic concept, because they avert more punishment, have many resets, and just take too much time to deal with. Just think about how long it takes to kill a good Yasuo, vs the risk/reward for doing so. Personally, I can counter Yasuo with Zyra in DII, but it's still a really annoying matchup, because the extra 10-12 seconds I'm fighting Yasuo reduces my presence elsewhere, or pushing a turret. it's MUCH easier if they run a Veigar or Karthus, and I can just pop them. At best, they can Zhonya's. They don't have 10 ways to dodge my skill shots or a Wind Wall to block my E.
BlackEtherian2 votesYou do realize with the exception of Pyke, every one of them has a detrimental win rate....
Ban rate only expresses micro frustration. The reason high elo bans Akali is because they have 4 other champions to deal with, and dealing with her takes too much focus. She's not OP. She just devotes way too much attention. High elos try to ban "luck" encounters, because the 3-4 times Akali succeeds per game, may very well be a lane push.
Zoe was sub 43% Win rate 6 months after her release. That's not a symptom of "New champion" Pyke isn't new. He's 48%. Irelia is dominating when a lane gives her a lead, but what top champ isn't? Played against a fed Renekton recently? or a fed Darius? Or a fed Garen? they have the same pressure/influence over a game.
Bottom line: Ban rates are indicative of a player base wanting easy, direct kills, not about who kills them, when in high elo. They will ban the people with the most mobility, even if they do not have influential damage.
It's not that they "Give" Irelia a lead if anything Irelias problem is how easy she can attain a lead with little to no thought or mechanical input.
floo3 votesZoe was never at any point broken
Yea good night sir
BlackEtherian1 votesNah. They really don't. It's just that people who call foul generally are louder and more prolific than the people who actually try out the champs, assess their strengths and weaknesses, and then learn to counterplay them.
There's a reason why most "OP New champs" don't have high win rates; Even if on a micro level, their kits duel well and are hard to react to, the tradeoff is they do not have an impression on their game's success on a macro level. That's why even with a double Siphoning Strike, Nasus really hasn't changed much. He's still a single target champion who only gains as much as one auto attack will let him. In contrast, more successful champs have aoes, faster move speeds in their builds, and can get away from a lane to help their teams.
Pyke is also a single target champion who on a micro level performs "well" on the surface. But, when you break down what he actually does, his statistics do not support his KDAs. He is essentially a "finisher" 90% of the time, and only 10% duel. His kit has some of the lowest damage output in the game, only hits once per skill, the CC is brief, and much of it is easy to mitigate. So, most Pykes just wait around for teammates to start fights, and help finish those fights at less than 30-20% HP. He may have a good KDA, but generally underperforms in objectives, actual damage, and even CC, because his Q has conditions, he is easy to kill, and E doesn't happen enough to champions per game.
Zoe was never at any point broken. In fact her win rate only went up after her 4th nerf, which moved some of her E and Passive damage into her W, and gave her a higher level 1 move speed on W, drastically reducing her Q/E damage output in the process. (I had a team last night that just kept stepping right on her Bubbles after they had been on the ground 1-1.5 seconds, who we had to block the shot for so many times, but that doesn't make her broken; that makes my teammates stupid). The size of her Q and linear nature of play and the weak structure of her R just makes her easy to kill/shut down/take out of a game. She's predictable, unless you use a ton of summoners around her. Which is also the opponent's ignorance.
Neeko is balanced as hell. Her R in exchange for large hits, is VERY hard to actually hit. You maybe hit it 2-3 times a game, unless a team is constantly trying to kill Neeko, and Neeko has a Zhonya's...... which also makes that team dumb. That's not Neeko being OP. That's the opponents Risking a Zhonya's into a mechanic they SHOULD KNOW. Her E rarely ever gets its full duration root, and her Q is easy to walk out of, and each hit is smaller than the average mage's hits.
Have you also noticed, that other than Pyke, all these champs have a really low play rate? If they were OP, they wouldn't be shelved. Especially with how fun, cute, and visually designed Neeko and Zoe are.
Why do you assume everyone complaining has never played the champions?
Marshbouy3 votessource on those stats?
Horse Grenades2 votesAnecdotes and hearsay. The most reliable source
I memba balance 1 votesToo bad the majority of the community doesn't agree with you if they've ever played 10 games on any of them.
since you want to be snarky towards the OP I'll just go ahead and flame you for them. You're a support main that abuses the likes of Zyra, Pyke, and Morgana and yet you finished Silver 4 last season with over 1200 Ranked Games played. Given you are in an elo that represents a majority of the community, doesn't mean you understand champion balance, kit balance, or overall design balance. Which shows because you give zero statistical/factual evidence to support your claim here. be silent.
Illabethe1 votesWrong. I'm a Diamond II Smurf who has a high play low elo account, who doesn't support main, but rather plays all roles, but mainly jungle and top. I have had long stints of queuing "Fill" but I rarely if ever explicitly Queue "Support."
Even on my smurf, I outstrip Silver in every performance metric by 34% or greater.
And, unlike the people I'm replying to.... Yes. I have posted factual information.
If you played Pyke 50 times, I guarantee you would counter him almost every time you played against him.
You're Gold-ish. Who are you to be rank shaming when you only play about 120 ranked games a year? (It's cute seeing a Gangplank main with Tri + Stormrazor trying to assert superiority over a D II)
PichuKanna2 votesokay anyone can claim challenger, i dont wanna argue with either of your points. But at least reply on your main if you actually wanna back it up. this just seems like penis measuring contest that provides nothing to verify for your claim. Again, I'm not saying you are not diamond II but if you were you shouldve responded on your diamond II account.
Illabethe1 votesI wasn't the one who attempted to rank shame and was caught in the act.
I memba balance 1 votesWrong. I'm a Diamond II Smurf who has a high play low elo account, who doesn't support main, but rather plays all roles, but mainly jungle and top. I have had long stints of queuing "Fill" but I rarely if ever explicitly Queue "Support."
Even on my smurf, I outstrip Silver in every performance metric by 34% or greater.
And, unlike the people I'm replying to.... Yes. I have posted factual information.
If you played Pyke 50 times, I guarantee you would counter him almost every time you played against him.
You're Gold-ish. Who are you to be rank shaming when you only play about 120 ranked games a year? (It's cute seeing a Gangplank main with Tri + Stormrazor trying to assert superiority over a D II)
mhm. so the level 189 account with over 1200 ranked games last year and still finished Silver 4 is somehow a D2 Smurf. riiiiiiiiight.
Illabethe1 votesMy main had 1492 games in D II.
P.S. It's called a trial account. I learn new champions on it, and I don't know if you noticed, my entire September was dominated by Pyke play.... and most of it was solid :). I f'd around a bit in October. I can win/lose a game on a whim.
I memba balance 1 votesMy main had 1492 games in D II.
P.S. It's called a trial account. I learn new champions on it, and I don't know if you noticed, my entire September was dominated by Pyke play.... and most of it was solid :). I f'd around a bit in October. I can win/lose a game on a whim.
yeah i call bullshit. sorry chief. no matter what, if you're ACTUALLY D2 elo, you could play Blitzcrank top with Cleanse/Ghost and still win. Just like I can pretty much play any role into Platinum. ESPECIALLY with 1200 games lmfao. idk who you're trying to fool but good luck in Bronze/Silver.
Illabethe1 votesYou have an overexaggerated sense of what a smurf can do in the current elo. You can win a lane with a nonmeta champ, but you still have to be building something viable. And winning a lane doesn't mean winning the game, because smurfing doesn't address the potential feed advantage your team gives the other team. If you're playing Blitz Top, building him AP or AD, and your team is losing mid 0/6 and bot lane 1/12, and your jungler is just "jungling" the entire game, your options to win are still finite. Blitz specifically usually gets singled out, and if he DOES miss a hook, he's usually a sitting duck for awhile. A fed other team can still win that, and his kit doesn't have resets or serious aoe presence.
Smurfs who want to win smurfing stick to reset champs like Irelia, Jax, Kha Zix, Jarvan, Lee Sin, Katarina, Fiora, or high scaling assassins like Talon or Zed these days. They don't clown play unless they are trying to derank and have some fun doing it (They'll win lane but lose game)
BlackEtherian1 votesMy main had 1492 games in D II.
P.S. It's called a trial account. I learn new champions on it, and I don't know if you noticed, my entire September was dominated by Pyke play.... and most of it was solid :). I f'd around a bit in October. I can win/lose a game on a whim.
You seem pretty cocky for a DII player, if you could win on a whim, you'd be rank 1
BlackEtherian1 votesWrong. I'm a Diamond II Smurf who has a high play low elo account, who doesn't support main, but rather plays all roles, but mainly jungle and top. I have had long stints of queuing "Fill" but I rarely if ever explicitly Queue "Support."
Even on my smurf, I outstrip Silver in every performance metric by 34% or greater.
And, unlike the people I'm replying to.... Yes. I have posted factual information.
If you played Pyke 50 times, I guarantee you would counter him almost every time you played against him.
You're Gold-ish. Who are you to be rank shaming when you only play about 120 ranked games a year? (It's cute seeing a Gangplank main with Tri + Stormrazor trying to assert superiority over a D II)
How is what you said factual? You simply stated that most of the community didn't agree. Anyone can say that. you presented no factual evidence to support your claim.
flyingspider544 votesI’ve been playing a LOT of Sylas, and I’d say he’s balanced, but also overloaded. I’ll fake someone out with my W heal or whatever, I’ll full combo them, and I hear a lot of “He has a heal?” and “Where tf did that shield come from?”
Marshbouy1 votesyeah I'll argue about pyke not being overloaded but Sylas is wack
flyingspider541 votesyeah I'll argue about pyke not being overloaded but Sylas is wack
Pyke has a Yasuo Q or a hook with a really telegraphed windup, a stealth, a dash-stun, a heal, and an execute with a reset. A lot of things, Sure, but fairly easy to recognize/understand. I’d agree with you that he’s not overloaded tbh.
Syrile3 votesSo... For some reason I see comments saying the new kits are not overloaded. I really hope this is not including reworks... because they are definitely overloaded beyond belief.
As for Zoe.. I mean, Faker was pretty adamant about how broken she was. I tend to trust him over.. well anyone?
Neeko is a little on the weak side if anything. Weird how they managed to make a mage weak but not much else.. And Sylas. Weak. Pyke? Not so much. How many times do they nerf him and he is still solid? Not broken really, though he does have quite a few abilities mixed in there but he is solid.
I feel the real problem is reworks more than new champions. Normally. Not always, but normally.
rtbf2256182412 votesPretty sure this is like 5 seconds. --_--
rtbf2256182411 votes3.908s according to my editor.
Was gonna guess 4 but it feels longer. :P
14daysuspensionk1 votesAaaaand, RIots latest champion:
Just the Lip1 votesWhy is this 4 seconds long?
Give me back my 1 second...
KFCeytron2 votes[{quoted}](name=KCT1 Lip,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=k7OUHmTF,comment-id=0009,timestamp=2019-01-29T05:10:44.386+0000)
Why is this 4 seconds long?
Give me back my 1 second...
I eyeballed it and rounded down rather than opening the editor back up and getting the exact value (which I posted above: 3.908s). I thought it would be sufficiently accurate for a thread title. I was wrong. I am sorry for my crime against numbers.
Just the Lip1 votesAs long as you are sorry, its ok.
[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]
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