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I have a problem with Teemo...

SlapDaddy1··1 votes·1,012 views

Disclaimer: This is going to come off as a total QQ post and I'm probably going to get a reasonable amount of hate for this, either from Teemo mains or people who haven't necessarily encountered what I have. Anyways, lets begin.

So I have an... issue with Teemo. Let me give some background info on what prompted me to make this post. Earlier today, I played a normal 5v5 Blind Pick as Vayne with a friend and, wouldn't you know it, there's a Teemo on the enemy team. This Teemo went mid, as was half expected, and promptly won lane. He didn't create a ridiculous lead, but he won lane, fairly plain and simple. My friend and I were duo bot and we won our lane in the same sort of way, nothing totally dominating. I was doing relatively well until we started grouping mid for team fights. We had a Karma mid and an Eve jungle, so it wasn't like we were all AA reliant assassins getting rekt by blinds. In addition, the enemy Varus and Blitz weren't doing very much damage and didn't create any crazy picks, so the only damage they had was Gnar, Xin Zhao (who had Runeglaive for one reason or another), and Teemo. The damage that this teemo dealt, which was before full build, was absolutely unacceptable. Our Alistar was getting taken from 70-0 with a Q and a Lich Bane'd auto. Come late game, it was even worse. I was taking half my health in damage running into one shroom. Being an ADC, I couldn't afford to buy extensive MR because it would leave less space for damage items and impact my DPS in a drastically negative way. This Teemo was practically impervious to death. Once he had full build, 800 damage on Q, plus the next auto with Lich Bane on it, and the base damage from Toxic Shot, and the DOT on Toxic Shot, and the burn from Liandry's. All that is more than my max health, and its "press one key and right click". No skillshots, no dificult positioning to learn, nothing that actually requires finesse. I'm not sure how many people are aware of the skill-based champion vs. knowledge-based champion, but it's essentially that some champions need skill to deal their damage and some champions require knowledge. Knowledge-based champs have lower skill ceilings and lower damage output. Teemo requires the skill of a knowledge-based champion, but has the innate damage and scaling of a skill-based champion. I don't know what role he's designed to fill, but I understand that giving him a blind creates a dueling advantage in his favor. I would've been fine if I couldn't kill him alone, but he wasn't dying even when he went to 2v1 our Eve and Karma, who have little reliance on AA's. I feel like Teemo is in a place where he is easy to play, difficult to kill, and, by late game, impossible to duel. You need a champion less balanced than Teemo to counter Teemo, a champ with reliable hard CC, better damage, and batter scaling, plus the ability to catch him in the first place, since Teemo is so damn speedy. I feel like he would totally be manageable if he were tweaked and revamped to make him more dueling heavy, but right now I feel like his scaling is too damn strong and he becomes a menace by late game, without the smallest iota of counterplay. Playing against full AP Teemo is like playing against a LeBlanc, who doesn't have skillshots and doesn't have to commit to a fight to deal damage. I feel like his problem right now is that he gets melted if he gets hit by hard CC, but he can kill the champions who pack that hard CC before they can get to him. I'm putting a pole in this post, so feel free to let me know if you think full AP Teemo is balanced or not, and feel free to check my match history for the game I'm referring to if you want more details.

P.S. I feel the same way about Riven, but I don't want to get into that right now.

21 Comments

TyroneWatermelon3 votes

tl;dr im a vayne main i got rekt by someone who counter me so now i want another counter eliminated

SlapDaddy11 votes

I'm fine with the fact the champs with blind counter ADC's, but he was chunking champ's that the blind doesn't really affect, with crazy scaling damage in the form of single-target burst, which is what i think is the problem.

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

{quoted}

I'm fine with the fact the champs with blind counter ADC's, but he was chunking champ's that the blind doesn't really affect, with crazy scaling damage in the form of single-target burst, which is what i think is the problem So want do you want him to do? fight you1v1 with little poison while you crit him and lifesteal him to death? every single mage in LoL needs burst. if you reduce his scaling what will happen?he will do less dmg which means he cant kill squishy champs,fight you 1v1 with poison while you crit him to death,and throw shroom in mid fight that will hit only a mentally retarded adc. thus hes one of 2 champs out of about 124 that have blind. atleast he doesnt have that kind of mobility,bonus dmg after q like you(lich bane is an item that doesnt count),broken true damage and self peel

SlapDaddy11 votes

{quoted}

So want do you want him to do? fight you1v1 with little poison while you crit him and lifesteal him to death? every single mage in LoL needs burst. if you reduce his scaling what will happen?he will do less dmg which means he cant kill squishy champs,fight you 1v1 with poison while you crit him to death,and throw shroom in mid fight that will hit only a mentally retarded adc. thus hes one of 2 champs out of about 124 that have blind. atleast he doesnt have that kind of mobility,bonus dmg after q like you(lich bane is an item that doesnt count),broken true damage and self peel

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. I'm perfectly fine with the fact that he has a blind, which gives him a dueling advantage against ADC's and champs like Yasuo. The problem isn't the blind, the problem is the damage that comes with the blind. During the game I had mentioned, he was killing people with a Q and an auto attack. I know that he was crazy fed, and that doesn't happen every game, but it doesn't give an opportunity for counterplay, even for champions that the blind debuff shouldn't affect in a 1v1 scenario. I'm not calling for a straight up nerf, I just want his power to be readjusted do make him more dueling/dps centered and maybe give him a skill shot or two. Again, I don't have a problem with the fact that he has a blind in his kit, I'm actually perfectly fine with that. I'm just saying that I think his burst damage potential is too high given the amount of skill it takes to play him.

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

{quoted}

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. I'm perfectly fine with the fact that he has a blind, which gives him a dueling advantage against ADC's and champs like Yasuo. The problem isn't the blind, the problem is the damage that comes with the blind. During the game I had mentioned, he was killing people with a Q and an auto attack. I know that he was crazy fed, and that doesn't happen every game, but it doesn't give an opportunity for counterplay, even for champions that the blind debuff shouldn't affect in a 1v1 scenario. I'm not calling for a straight up nerf, I just want his power to be readjusted do make him more dueling/dps centered and maybe give him a skill shot or two. Again, I don't have a problem with the fact that he has a blind in his kit, I'm actually perfectly fine with that. I'm just saying that I think his burst damage potential is too high given the amount of skill it takes to play him.

Without his scaling on his blind he doesnt have any burst damage,and yet even with blind he cant fight aa champs forever.

SlapDaddy11 votes

{quoted}

Without his scaling on his blind he doesnt have any burst damage,and yet even with blind he cant fight aa champs forever.

Teemo's primary role is "marksman". I'm not sure he was designed to be a burst mage, which is why I think it would make him a healthier champ if his power was shifted to make him more DPS oriented, and make full AP one-shot Teemo less viable. Again, what I'm suggesting isn't that Teemo should be nerfed directly, but that his power should be shifted and he should be given a higher skill ceiling by getting a minor kit change with a skillshot or something.

LadyRenly1 votes

He already has a skillshot. His ult was nerfed in favor of a skillshot gimmick.

Teemo doesn't really work DPS, he is too squishy for it. He relies on his ult slow and his blind to kill his enemies before they mercilessly slaughter him

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

{quoted}

Teemo's primary role is "marksman". I'm not sure he was designed to be a burst mage, which is why I think it would make him a healthier champ if his power was shifted to make him more DPS oriented, and make full AP one-shot Teemo less viable. Again, what I'm suggesting isn't that Teemo should be nerfed directly, but that his power should be shifted and he should be given a higher skill ceiling by getting a minor kit change with a skillshot or something.

1.you want teemo to have more skill ceiling?so do I about Vayne. Here,they are both brainless champs,each in their own way. Teemo have high DPS but you CANT compare Magic dmg on attacks to critical and lifesteal. Teemo must have high dmg on 1 ability because shrooms are easily countered and takes time to arm,what he left with is blind and poison. Teemo was designed in te beta of LoL when they wasn't roles like Mage and carry n shit,so they just wanted to develop a unique character. Sure his kit is toxic(see what I did there?)but so do Vayne's

SlapDaddy11 votes

{quoted}

1.you want teemo to have more skill ceiling?so do I about Vayne. Here,they are both brainless champs,each in their own way. Teemo have high DPS but you CANT compare Magic dmg on attacks to critical and lifesteal. Teemo must have high dmg on 1 ability because shrooms are easily countered and takes time to arm,what he left with is blind and poison. Teemo was designed in te beta of LoL when they wasn't roles like Mage and carry n shit,so they just wanted to develop a unique character. Sure his kit is toxic(see what I did there?)but so do Vayne's

I understand how people could get frustrated with Vayne's damage potential given her lack of skillshots. I think her difficulty comes from the way you need to position in order to deal your damage and stay safe from retaliation. By the way, I don't main Vayne, I just have streaks where I play Vayne for a day every now and again. Vayne has low attack range relative to other ADCs, making her laning phase brutal if she doesn't have a support who can provide crazy peel. Also, if you check her champion profile in the client, she has the highest dificulty rating of any ADC, on par with that of Draven I believe. Teemo's difficulty rating, however, is quite a big lower than Vayne's. Teemo can quite easily dominate if he's played top lane if he's up against anyone but Yorick or Ryze. Sometimes he doesn't even need to buy boots because he has passive movespeed in his kit. Speaking of Yorick, he's getting reworked because he has major problems and he's essentially click to win, even though his original concept was great. The same thing happened to Sion. I think Teemo has these same problems, although they aren't as dramatic. I saw you mentioned that magic damage on hit doesn't compare to crit, and I just have to disagree with you. Crit can be itemized against especially with the new Randuins effect or Thornmail. Mixed damage is extremely hard to itemize against, because buying either armor or MR is only taking care of half the problem. All I really want is for Teemo's damage potential to match his skill to play, and I think proper changes to address this issue would make him a healthier champ and give people who play Teemo a more dynamic experience.

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

{quoted}

I understand how people could get frustrated with Vayne's damage potential given her lack of skillshots. I think her difficulty comes from the way you need to position in order to deal your damage and stay safe from retaliation. By the way, I don't main Vayne, I just have streaks where I play Vayne for a day every now and again. Vayne has low attack range relative to other ADCs, making her laning phase brutal if she doesn't have a support who can provide crazy peel. Also, if you check her champion profile in the client, she has the highest dificulty rating of any ADC, on par with that of Draven I believe. Teemo's difficulty rating, however, is quite a big lower than Vayne's. Teemo can quite easily dominate if he's played top lane if he's up against anyone but Yorick or Ryze. Sometimes he doesn't even need to buy boots because he has passive movespeed in his kit. Speaking of Yorick, he's getting reworked because he has major problems and he's essentially click to win, even though his original concept was great. The same thing happened to Sion. I think Teemo has these same problems, although they aren't as dramatic. I saw you mentioned that magic damage on hit doesn't compare to crit, and I just have to disagree with you. Crit can be itemized against especially with the new Randuins effect or Thornmail. Mixed damage is extremely hard to itemize against, because buying either armor or MR is only taking care of half the problem. All I really want is for Teemo's damage potential to match his skill to play, and I think proper changes to address this issue would make him a healthier champ and give people who play Teemo a more dynamic experience.

Position?vayne isn't special. Dodging spells?yes,but that's the only thing she requires brain in her kit. Difficulty?sorry to dissapoint you,but that's bullshit.Why? Look; Ryze 7/10 Garen 5/10 Teemo 6/10 Riven 7/10 Annie 5/10 Fizz 6/10 Vayne 8/10 If any of those listed you think difficulty actually match them,you are in problem my friend.

SlapDaddy11 votes

{quoted}

Position?vayne isn't special. Dodging spells?yes,but that's the only thing she requires brain in her kit. Difficulty?sorry to dissapoint you,but that's bullshit.Why? Look; Ryze 7/10 Garen 5/10 Teemo 6/10 Riven 7/10 Annie 5/10 Fizz 6/10 Vayne 8/10 If any of those listed you think difficulty actually match them,you are in problem my friend.

Now that you mention it, Riot's difficulty rates are overshot in most cases, but I digress. Remember this is all personal opinion. When I picked up Vayne, I got destroyed. There are ADC's that shut her down in lane that are easier to play, like Ashe and Cait. While Vayne isn't the hardest champion, I'd say she's one of the hardest ADC's since most others have better AA range and abilities more effective than a sometimes stun that does no damage. I'm not trying to compare Vayne and Teemo either, because they are very different champions with very different problems. I originally made this post because I played a game against a Teemo that could kill anyone on our team in under 3 second, leaving an almost nonexistent window for counterplay. As a rational person, I thought this was quite unfair. My main concern is that Teemo requires little skill to play and his damage reflects that of a more mechanically intensive champion, and Teemo is definitely not a mechanically intensive champion. The only thing you need to worry about is what choke points to put your shrooms, which isn't that hard. Any champion who can kill in 3 seconds without a counterplay window should require extreme skill to play (which Teemo doesn't) or should go through a shitty early game to get there (which Teemo doesn't). These don't need to be remedied by hard nerfs, they can be helped by giving him more skill intensive gameplay and/or a less dominant early game. If you want to keep complaining about Vayne because decent Vayne players are hard reading your engages and Condemning you away before you can melt them with your "balanced and skill-oriented champions", then be my guest, but Vayne has very clear drawbacks in her lack of AOE or reliable CC, poor early game damage and engage potential, and dificult positioning compared to other ADCs, whereas Teemo's drawbacks are fewer, and less relevant.

Also, just to see if we can find some common ground, what are your thoughts on Riven and Leblanc?

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

{quoted}

Now that you mention it, Riot's difficulty rates are overshot in most cases, but I digress. Remember this is all personal opinion. When I picked up Vayne, I got destroyed. There are ADC's that shut her down in lane that are easier to play, like Ashe and Cait. While Vayne isn't the hardest champion, I'd say she's one of the hardest ADC's since most others have better AA range and abilities more effective than a sometimes stun that does no damage. I'm not trying to compare Vayne and Teemo either, because they are very different champions with very different problems. I originally made this post because I played a game against a Teemo that could kill anyone on our team in under 3 second, leaving an almost nonexistent window for counterplay. As a rational person, I thought this was quite unfair. My main concern is that Teemo requires little skill to play and his damage reflects that of a more mechanically intensive champion, and Teemo is definitely not a mechanically intensive champion. The only thing you need to worry about is what choke points to put your shrooms, which isn't that hard. Any champion who can kill in 3 seconds without a counterplay window should require extreme skill to play (which Teemo doesn't) or should go through a shitty early game to get there (which Teemo doesn't). These don't need to be remedied by hard nerfs, they can be helped by giving him more skill intensive gameplay and/or a less dominant early game. If you want to keep complaining about Vayne because decent Vayne players are hard reading your engages and Condemning you away before you can melt them with your "balanced and skill-oriented champions", then be my guest, but Vayne has very clear drawbacks in her lack of AOE or reliable CC, poor early game damage and engage potential, and dificult positioning compared to other ADCs, whereas Teemo's drawbacks are fewer, and less relevant.

Also, just to see if we can find some common ground, what are your thoughts on Riven and Leblanc?

Few mistakes. Just because some adc activate abilities or increase them over time,or need to work for extra dmg via abilities or stacks,not making vayne hard to play,but in fact easier. Hey,CC is cc,teemo's point and click is to make aa miss their aa for few seconds,and vayne's point and click knockback is to keep her enemies completely off her/possible stun her. Please don't bullshit upon me that vayne is hard to position,vayne is super forgiving with tumble and condom,if you want adc that is hard to position take Varus MissFortune KogMaw Twitch ,guess what,they also have skillshots and mana costs,which comparing them to vayne,she is brainless champion. Last time,vayne has no poor early game. She had,but not in the last couple of seasons. So where are vayne's drawbacks?she neither have weak early game nor skill oriented.thats why she must be nerfed. Teemo isn't very mechanically intensive champion,but neither vayne. Vayne should worry about dodging and condoming,Teemo should worry about blinding and shroom positioning. My opinion is that Teemo takes more skill than vayne. Teemo has weak early game,it's just that he is usually top vs melee champions that give him an advantage. Btw if you think Teemo doesn't pays for his damage,you are gonna have a bad time. For last,Teemo only aoe is shrooms,which good luck throwing into a fight and somebody enough brainless to step on them with their arm time.

SlapDaddy11 votes

{quoted}

Few mistakes. Just because some adc activate abilities or increase them over time,or need to work for extra dmg via abilities or stacks,not making vayne hard to play,but in fact easier. Hey,CC is cc,teemo's point and click is to make aa miss their aa for few seconds,and vayne's point and click knockback is to keep her enemies completely off her/possible stun her. Please don't bullshit upon me that vayne is hard to position,vayne is super forgiving with tumble and condom,if you want adc that is hard to position take Varus MissFortune KogMaw Twitch ,guess what,they also have skillshots and mana costs,which comparing them to vayne,she is brainless champion. Last time,vayne has no poor early game. She had,but not in the last couple of seasons. So where are vayne's drawbacks?she neither have weak early game nor skill oriented.thats why she must be nerfed. Teemo isn't very mechanically intensive champion,but neither vayne. Vayne should worry about dodging and condoming,Teemo should worry about blinding and shroom positioning. My opinion is that Teemo takes more skill than vayne. Teemo has weak early game,it's just that he is usually top vs melee champions that give him an advantage. Btw if you think Teemo doesn't pays for his damage,you are gonna have a bad time. For last,Teemo only aoe is shrooms,which good luck throwing into a fight and somebody enough brainless to step on them with their arm time.

Comparing the CC of Teemo and Vayne is like comparing normal pepper spray and pepper spray that doubles as napalm. I'm pretty sure the napalm is gonna actually hurt someone. Also, watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHjkeeVu4hk And hey, I have a challenge for you. How about you play 5 games as Vayne and I'll play 5 games as Teemo, and we can see who does better in more situations and who had the easier champ. Also, ask literally anyone who plays ADC somewhat avidly if Varus has harder positioning that Vayne. I guarantee 95% of those people or more will tell you that Varus is way easier and you clearly haven't played Vayne ever.

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

{quoted}

Comparing the CC of Teemo and Vayne is like comparing normal pepper spray and pepper spray that doubles as napalm. I'm pretty sure the napalm is gonna actually hurt someone. Also, watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHjkeeVu4hk And hey, I have a challenge for you. How about you play 5 games as Vayne and I'll play 5 games as Teemo, and we can see who does better in more situations and who had the easier champ. Also, ask literally anyone who plays ADC somewhat avidly if Varus has harder positioning that Vayne. I guarantee 95% of those people or more will tell you that Varus is way easier and you clearly haven't played Vayne ever.

Teemo has no counterplay? LOL. not all LoL players hate Teemo,maybe not me. Sure it isn't fun,but it doesn't make me rage and cry like it does to most players. Yes,I have played vayne enough games to know how boring and broke she is,guess what?it was before the tank meta. Not saying varus is that hard,but I say the carries who don't have mobility spells or knockback are the ones that hard to position with. To me vayne is the overall easiest carry to play

SlapDaddy11 votes

{quoted}

Teemo has no counterplay? LOL. not all LoL players hate Teemo,maybe not me. Sure it isn't fun,but it doesn't make me rage and cry like it does to most players. Yes,I have played vayne enough games to know how boring and broke she is,guess what?it was before the tank meta. Not saying varus is that hard,but I say the carries who don't have mobility spells or knockback are the ones that hard to position with. To me vayne is the overall easiest carry to play

Varus is crazy easy compared to Vayne. He has obscene range and poke, stupid lane dominance, and reliable CC. If Vayne is easy for you, you're probably playing every other ADC completely wrong. Also, if you honestly think that point and click AP nukes have counterplay, tell me what that counterplay is.

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

{quoted}

Varus is crazy easy compared to Vayne. He has obscene range and poke, stupid lane dominance, and reliable CC. If Vayne is easy for you, you're probably playing every other ADC completely wrong. Also, if you honestly think that point and click AP nukes have counterplay, tell me what that counterplay is.

The counterplay is MR/banshee. What's the counterplay to point and click knockback? Second mobility spell which most champs don't have/superior movement speed of about 600. No counterplay? I guess all these champs don't have counterplay and must be nerfed by your words.Anivia Annie Brand Syndra Veigar Shaco LeeSin Lissandra Garen Chogath Darius Volibear

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

{quoted}

The counterplay is MR/banshee. What's the counterplay to point and click knockback? Second mobility spell which most champs don't have/superior movement speed of about 600. No counterplay? I guess all these champs don't have counterplay and must be nerfed by your words.Anivia Annie Brand Syndra Veigar Shaco LeeSin Lissandra Garen Chogath Darius Volibear

When you complain about Teemo point and click you also complain about all these,which unfortunalty for you,point and click still exist in this game,just like your point and click knockback.

Jamaree2 votes

It is balanced because of what it lacks. He isn't a strong teamfighter, sure he can chunk his shrooms now, but besides blinding the ADC, he doesn't bring any real utility to a team that other APCs can. Xerath can only range stun and DPS, Kog can artillery fire, and Orianna can hard CC a whole team. He also has no escapes, so if his shrooms don't see the person coming, he is dead unless fed, and that Teemo had 39 kills, if he wasn't one shotting, I would be confused.

MilfHuntUnitXJ91 votes

he got nerfed so many times. its his kit itself that is giving you problems.

doesnt need more nerfs.stop.

BroLane1 votes

uninstall

Dreamsicle Dango1 votes

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