Am I the only one to miss the old Sion?

Around999People·Jul 8, 2016·7 votes·1,005 views

Am I the only one? Every time I talk about league I talk about Sion, and how Riot destroyed what was an amazing champion by replacing it with a champion that I would call... less.

I was a Sion main, I played him every day in every lane on every map. I connected to him. I put in countless hours into perfecting my style. And then Riot changed him into something I can't even play thanks to all the memories of his prime

RIP old Sion, you are missed

Edit: well this got more attention than I expected ^^

If I seem rude in my replies please ignore it. I'm at work and grumpy and hungry. So not being rude just not stating my thoughts properly

36 Comments

QuephaJul 8, 20164 votes

No. But most of the people who miss him recognize that feeling as merely nostalgia. He was not a well designed champion. His design didn't work at what it was intended to do, and how it actually worked was not healthy for the game.

Around999PeopleJul 8, 20161 votes

I thought it was healthy. It had its issues with him being able to go ap and ad, but look at how we have assassin's that are harder to kill than the actual tanks.

I mean, what wasn't healthy about him to the point where they needed to practically make a new champ?

RalanrJul 8, 20161 votes

Being either overbearingly ahead that he could get pentakills in the enemy fountain, or being completely useless if behind.

Plus the RNG passive. Not to mention the thematic problems (eye lasers from a zombie).

Around999PeopleJul 8, 20161 votes

Plenty of champions can get a penta in the enemy fountain. Nothing special about that. Though he did it more constantly.

Not sure what RNG means >~<

Thematic problems: Don't a large number of champions suffer from this? But I'll grant that his case was a bit more than most.

Still, I guess I'm a fan boy since I still want him back rofl. Good points though

RalanrJul 8, 20161 votes

Name 5 champions that can get a penta from inside the enemy fountain.
Random number generator/God. Basically think how Crits work when not at 100% chance.
You are correct. But they either have healthy (enough for the game) playstyles that they don't need to be changed, or they are on a list to be changed but haven't been announced a rework yet because they don't have ideas and/or people to work on it.
Probably. Nostalgia is like a drug, reality always hits you back hard when you see the real thing.

Around999PeopleJul 8, 20161 votes

1- Vel'Kozak 2- Katerina 3- Kalista (enough stacks anything dies) 4- Jinx (had a Quadra penta was stolen by mid, all in Fountain) 5- Annivia 6- Azir 7- Illaoi (if her tentacles can spawn around) 8- Kogmaw

You get the point lol

RalanrJul 8, 20161 votes

How is Kat able to get a pentakill in a fountain? She'd die to quickly.

I'm not sure Anivia has enough damage in her ult to beat the healing in fountain.

Illaoi maybe, but her sustain would need to be stupid and I doubt she'd survive the laser long enough to position herself.

If Kalista had enough stacks to get the kill, she'd have done it before they got in the fountain.

Around999PeopleJul 8, 20161 votes

Kats dps is just stupid. I mean she kills teams like nothing. I'm pretty sure she could kill the team in time. She'd die but they'd die too

Maybe, I'm not sure aboutique her. But I know when I play asome Thresh she kills me with her combo thing on a regular basis

Illaoi, I qualify this as a strong maybe. Need to play her to test

Kalista could just get the stacks when they spawn can't she?

RalanrJul 8, 20161 votes

The fountain range is farther than Kindred's AA range.

QuephaJul 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I thought it was healthy. It had its issues with him being able to go ap and ad, but look at how we have assassin's that are harder to kill than the actual tanks.

I mean, what wasn't healthy about him to the point where they needed to practically make a new champ?

His AP build was his only good build and it was a targeted stun with a follow-up that would 100-0 a champion. That is as unhealthy as a pattern can get.

Around999PeopleJul 8, 20162 votes

Personally I found an AD build to fit me better.

But I mean, Veig, stun, that meteor thing and everyone that isn't an anti ap tank is dead.

Like there's so many champions that have a combo that works

Sightless66Jul 8, 20161 votes

It had its issues with him being able to go ap and ad,

That wasn't an issue. Being able to go AD or AP wasn't really a problem. A much more significant problem was that either build would have spells that were useless to him. AD Sion did not care in the slightest about the shield, and AP sion got minimal use of the E or ult.

A much more significant problem was that his AP build was extremely, ungodly unhealthy. He used a targeted stun followed by huge burst. It was extremely reliable and there wasn't really a good way to play against it. If he was ever strong, you didn't have options for playing against him. As a result, there was no option but to leave him weak. His AD build had similar, if less exaggerated problems. His goal there was to try to burst someone and drain tank with full AD, but with no tools to make that work outside of relying on enemy incompetence.

Around999PeopleJul 8, 20161 votes

Well the useless spells I grant you were mostly useless.

But the unhealthy burst, Kat, goes in and automatic penta.

Veig, stun then that meteor thing and anyone who isn't full MR is dead.

Kindred, literally the more you feed her the faster she kills you, plus an AOE version of trynds ult

QuephaJul 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Kat, goes in and automatic penta.

Nothing automatic about it, she needs to channel that ult for a duration without eating any cc. She wasn't nearly as bad as Sion yet she is still considered one of the more problematic assassins that Riot wants to rework, the only question right now is if she'll fit into the assassin update or if the work she needs is actually too big to fit into the update.

Veig, stun then that meteor thing and anyone who isn't full MR is dead.

Stun is very slow and dodgeable, plus players may take qss or cleanse just to deal with veigar's stun. Without the stun his meteor is double dodgeable.

Kindred, literally the more you feed her the faster she kills you, plus an AOE version of trynds ult

Literally every champion gets stronger the more you feed them and the AoE nature of her ult gives it a ton of weaknesses that can be exploited, not least of which that it also makes your team unkillable and heals them. Kindred also simply doesn't have burst on her kit, she's a sustained damage champion.

Sightless66Jul 8, 20161 votes

But the unhealthy burst,

I want to make something clear. The problem is not that there was burst. That is fine. No one is complaining about how Sion had burst. The problem is reliability. When you combine burst with extremely high reliability, you get a champion that becomes impossible to play against whenever they are strong, which necessitates keeping the champion weak.

stun then that meteor thing and anyone who isn't full MR is dead.

Look at Veigar's reliability compared to Sion's. The stun can be dodged quite easily, and the meteor has a delay that allows you to avoid it if you aren't stunned. Sion's Q was not dodgable. His W could be stopped only if you broke it before he could pop it, which was extremely unreasonable early in the game when the values were very high and he could stun you. That's the problem. You can play against Veigar. You can take a large number of actions to work against what he is trying to do. This was much, much less true for Sion.

Kat, goes in and automatic penta.

Again, Katarina is lacking old Sion's reliability. Katarina's ultimate takes a significant amount of time to get the full power off, and that gives you a ton of time to disrupt her and leave her with her ass handing out. Sion had nothing like that. For most of the game, you didn't have an opportunity to respond to Sion's burst combo. He runs up, stuns you, and bursts you with W. There is nothing to miss, no way to stop it outside of blowing up his shield or staying out of his range. That's the difference between Sion and Katarina.

But, there is another component to this. As the game went on, Sion started to become unable to respond to his enemies. He would turn on his shield in a teamfight, it would die instantly, and he would have no options to stop that from happening. That is bad too. It wasn't good that Sion didn't give his opponents options, and it was bad when he didn't have options against his opponent.

Old Sion had a low amount of potential power but had a near-complete guarantee on the power he had. If he was numerically stronger than you, you would lose almost every fight against him. If he wasn't, you won almost every fight against him. That is extremely unhealthy. There was a strong argument to be made for old Sion being the most unhealthy champion in the game at the time. New Sion has a very high potential power, but with lower reliability. He can do a ton of work if played well, but he actually has a potential to screw up mechanically. That is much healthier. It does not appeal to old Sion players because reliability was a large part of what they liked about him, and that is unfortunate.

LuggJul 8, 20164 votes

Old Sion was fun, but new Sion is light years better.

Around999PeopleJul 8, 20161 votes

How?

LuggJul 8, 20165 votes

His old passive was based on pure luck, which is never a good thing. His new passive makes him relevant in teamfights even if he dies. His Q went from a single target to being and AoE stun. Definitely an improvement even if it's harder to land. His W is basically the same. His E was like Aatrox's W, so it wasn't very unique. The new E gives him poke in lane and CC, so he can lane against ranged champs. His old ult was pretty meh. His new ult is epic, one of the best in the game if you learn how to use it.

Around999PeopleJul 8, 20161 votes

Good point on the passive part.

Stun: nearly impossible to land now since anyone can walk out of it in time.

E: I wouldn't say it's like Aatrox's w. And I mean, if a new champion comes out with a smilarge ability how's it the older Champs fault? Plus we have things like Kindreds ult which is an AOE trynd ult. We have new sion's passive which is yorik's ult. There's plenty of abilities that have similar ideas.

I actually found his ult amazing. I used to be Ad Sion and his ult was what made it so amazing

RalanrJul 8, 20162 votes

Don't do a full charge. Half way is enough to knock people up.

If his passive was like Yorick's ult then he'd be broken actually.

Around999PeopleJul 8, 20161 votes

It takes well over 1 sec to charge to when it actually knock up.

Both revive the champ for a few seconds o,o one can use the abilities the other can't. That's the only difference isn't it?

RalanrJul 8, 20161 votes

Yorick can revive his allies also.

LuggJul 8, 20161 votes

The stun only has to be channeled half way to get the stun. This is easy to hit unless they have flash or MS abilities. Plus you can't see it coming if he is not in line of sight.

I agree that many abilities are similar. After all, you can only be so creative. Riot just wants to try and make each champ more unique.

Old Sion's ult wasn't bad at all, it's just that the new one is way better IMHO.

BastionKrossJul 8, 20163 votes

I dislike both old and new.

Old Sion, when built AP, had absolutely zero counterplay: Targeted stun => Shield explosion => Lichbane proc => Dead before the stun wore off. His passive only worked sometimes. His E and ult were next to useless to an AP build, and AD Sion builds took so long to ramp up that it made Nasus look like Pantheon.

New Sion, to the contrary, is full of counterplay. Every single ability of his, including his passive, has some obvious and easily accessible method for your enemy to outplay you built right into it. Sion is a juggernaut/tank, not an assassin; he doesn't need counterplay to that extent. On top of that, the infinite health scaling passive is nice, until you realize that Sion's base HP and HP growth look large hits to compensate (He's slightly above Shen and Morde, and those two aren't the posterboys for melee base stats). The passive should give you a bunch of extra HP, not help make up for what you lose for having the passive in the first place.

If I had to choose between the two, I'd probably pick old Sion. He was cancer with his no counterplay AP build, but hardly anyone played him so it evened out. Also, I loved his constant Arnold impersonations. GET ON MAH CHOPPA. Riot picked a fine time to stop doing traditional skins.

With new Sion, it's almost a sideshow watching one try to land their kit on a Leblanc or Kalista or anyone with a noticeable amount of mobility. The learning curve of Sion's kit went from zero to a hundred overnight, and for people who played him pre-rework that was a shock to the system. It takes a lot of practice to be Sion now.

Around999PeopleJul 8, 20161 votes

Well said ^^

DorkunedAurasJul 8, 20162 votes

Old Sion's Kit was an absolute mess.

There were 3 builds, and all of them had flaws.

AD sion barely had a shield, due to it scaling exclusively with AP, and didn't get much damage from it either.

AP sion literally didn't level up their ult because of how useless it was on that build.

Full tank sion couldn't utilize their shield or ult effectively.

Worse, AD sion had the massive problem that, if you didn't stun him, he would not only become invincible, but make his whole team invincible too.

HorusEyeJul 8, 20161 votes

RIP old Sion, you are missed

We do? Really?

OleandervineJul 8, 20161 votes

You are probably one of the few that misses that unviable kit. Old Sion was pretty disastrous and invalidated by pretty much every other champion in the game. New Sion has the tools he needs to be the tank he's intended to be, and he's leaps and bounds better than that crusty potato he used to be.

Around999PeopleJul 8, 20161 votes

I used to go as a dualist/bruiser type with him and it did wonders.

New Sion is so easy to beat. I mean all he has that's good is maybe is ult

OleandervineJul 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I used to go as a dualist/bruiser type with him and it did wonders.

New Sion is so easy to beat. I mean all he has that's good is maybe is ult

It did wonders if you caught someone. Old Sion was basically one of those "I hope they stop moving so I can kill them" champs.

Around999PeopleJul 8, 20161 votes

Thats why his stun was so wonderful to have. Not to mention building things that increased movement speed a bit. He was countered by kiting mostly until late game where he didn't care about it too much

DeathBurstJul 8, 20161 votes

Aren't you a bit late to the party, mate? I mean, I never knew old Sion, and I still play this game for 2 years already. What provoked this post today?

Around999PeopleJul 8, 20161 votes

Just bored at work thinking about which champions to stream and to show off S's. Considering I had a 90% win streak with Sion I'd say he'd be great if it was like before lol.