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Why no AD Supports?

Looknook··36 votes·4,746 views

So I was wondering, why is there no item for AD supports. They are 3 supports items at the moment. item 3302 Relic shield is the item for tanky supports and its a good item if you want your support to be brick wall and have extra HP sustain in lane. item 3301 Ancient Coin is the item that seems like it is for more passive lanes. Its big thing is giving Mana sustain and a nice speed boost when fully upgraded. item 3303 Spellthief's Edge is the last support item and is the aggressive support item. Spellthief's gives light Mana sustain and gold for hurting enemies, but only builds AP on it so its wasted on an AD support. So why is there an item for aggressive and high damage AP supports, but none for an AD support? While an AD item could possibly be abused, it could also create interesting diversity in the bot lane.

So there are support AP champions like Sona and Nami which are poke oriented and heal oriented. But there are other AP midlaners that can be played as support such as Brand or Annie or even Morgana to an extent since she was designed as a midlaner initially. Brand and Annie offer little utility besides a skill shot stun with Brand or an OAE possible team flash stun with Annie. What they do bring is damage though. So why not AD poke supports. Varus is an ADC with a strong poke centered play style, and Urgot is similar to this. As such these champs do not see the most play and when they have hit it big recently it is in the mid lane around that poke identity. By giving an AD support choice it could open the game up for more interesting team compostions. Or it could be abused.

While I do see how AD supports could be abused but I believe they could be useful if given the chance. It is something that I want to talk about and see what everyone's opinion on this is.

132 Comments

Live2LetDie22 votes

What ad champ has utility like the Mage supports? What true support is ad? Thresh is the only one I can think of that can use an ad item. Other than that it has to be a really weird champ to use said item.

biologist113 votes

Gnar can provide the utility of tons of cc in mega gnar. But he can pick up runic sheild. Also other possible ad supports could be lee sin and yasou both provide heavy utillity with lee insane amount of peeling with his ult and safe guard and yasou windwall plus knockups.

IcyPepper4 votes

Lee possibly, but he makes good use out of relic shield since he's melee, making him weak to poke.

Yasuo, on the other hand, just isn't effective as a support. Due to his passive, his main items are just too expensive for a support's income.

Karn Bishop7 votes
  1. Volibear, flip + aoe slow + passive regen
  2. Nocturne support, Shield to do active skill shot blocking vs mages, Fear ability, and Ult to apply pressure to mid or help your jungler.
  3. Sion, yes he can use relic shield but an ad option would be nice.
  4. Lee sin, yes uses relic shield but if you know its going to be an aggro lane its nice to have options
  5. Aatrox, Small aoe knockup ability and also a slow + passive.
  6. Jarvan IV, Two separate forms of poke, speed boost, and a knockup plus an arena at lvl 6.
  7. Pantheon, poke, counter engage stun, semi global ult for pressure.
  8. Trundle, Pillar for engages, + a crap ton of stat stealing abilitys

There you go, 8 people who could easily support if they had a viable starting item, and some of these guys do already support in some situations.

also by allowing an ad item and ad champions it frees up urgot to return as a pseudo adc.

FistOfSharkiesha8 votes

AD champions are item reliant while AP/tank champions are more level reliant and have more CC and utility in general. AD support champions will never scale well unless you win lane like hell.

Sire Hippington2 votes

well, all of them are melees that want to go all-in, so relic sure is proper starting item(or dorans for cheese early all in and then relic+sightstone) it's more that items like old zeke's are missing, granting some ad+tank+support the only supportive ad-item is BC right now, and Mallet if you want...

the only champs that really would prefer an ad-starting item as support are Ashe Kalista Gnar ...maybe a return of old zekes as starting item, starting with like 5 ad+some goldgain, followed by some more ad+sustain, followed by ad+health+sustain for allies. that would work on tanky ad aswell

Live2LetDie3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Karn Bishop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jhQ8Fryr,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2015-10-07T04:57:32.011+0000)

  1. Volibear, flip + aoe slow + passive regen
  2. Nocturne support, Shield to do active skill shot blocking vs mages, Fear ability, and Ult to apply pressure to mid or help your jungler.
  3. Sion, yes he can use relic shield but an ad option would be nice.
  4. Lee sin, yes uses relic shield but if you know its going to be an aggro lane its nice to have options
  5. Aatrox, Small aoe knockup ability and also a slow + passive.
  6. Jarvan IV, Two separate forms of poke, speed boost, and a knockup plus an arena at lvl 6.
  7. Pantheon, poke, counter engage stun, semi global ult for pressure.
  8. Trundle, Pillar for engages, + a crap ton of stat stealing abilitys

There you go, 8 people who could easily support if they had a viable starting item, and some of these guys do already support in some situations.

also by allowing an ad item and ad champions it frees up urgot to return as a pseudo adc.

Counter to each of those champs as support , janna, nami, thresh, naut, leo. Those supports will walk over everything champ in that list. Your also forgetting your going double ad comp so leo, naut, and thresh would be laughing in that lane. Again, what ad support champ can be viable in bot lane vs the common supports?

Karn Bishop2 votes

Your also thinking in the mindset of a group of champions that have a cheap item option built for them for supporting vs those who do not at the moment. if an equal value ad support item existed these would not be hard counters necessarily.

The original question was also who could reasonably support with a VIABLE AD ITEM, and i gave you a list, you throwing out a list of champions that have the benefit of a cheap item that gets them extra gold + mana regen or hp restore is not a fair comparison for the question that was asked.

About that double ad thing who cares? that can be a viable strategy as well by having 4 ad champions and one ap mid like say fizz, ahri, or even lebanc it forces the enemy to make a choice do i itemize armor n damage and hope the one ap player they has sucks? or do i itemize an item vs their ap player but get less armor for the AD guys?

Live2LetDie1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Karn Bishop,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jhQ8Fryr,comment-id=0001000200020001,timestamp=2015-10-08T01:45:16.531+0000)

Your also thinking in the mindset of a group of champions that have a cheap item option built for them for supporting vs those who do not at the moment. if an equal value ad support item existed these would not be hard counters necessarily.

The original question was also who could reasonably support with a VIABLE AD ITEM, and i gave you a list, you throwing out a list of champions that have the benefit of a cheap item that gets them extra gold + mana regen or hp restore is not a fair comparison for the question that was asked.

About that double ad thing who cares? that can be a viable strategy as well by having 4 ad champions and one ap mid like say fizz, ahri, or even lebanc it forces the enemy to make a choice do i itemize armor n damage and hope the one ap player they has sucks? or do i itemize an item vs their ap player but get less armor for the AD guys?

Dual ad bot allows a support to set masteries and runes to full armor because early game is really where they matter most. So yes a dual as bot would be a disadvantage.

Again there is no auto attack champion that can effectively support that would out perform any of the current supports. Support is all about utility to protect the adc or extremely hard engage that is instant.

Small Tiddies1 votes

Jax, Gangplank, and Xin. Jax can block 90% of the dmg from the adc and he shreds them (Aggressive Support that's AD?) Dankplank Doesn't need any hard, he's all k. Plus Barrel rolls are fun. :) Xin has nice cc, plus he can peel a decent amount. (Getting an alistar or leo off his adc by ulting them off, knocking up the adc) I like playing non-meta supports and having an AD support item would really be nice.

Karn Bishop1 votes

Jax was removed on account of his mana costs, xin needs 3 autos to ensure stun, and GP would accidentally steal too much farm with barrels and would fall off hard without tri force.

GreenLore1 votes

None of these champs that you list is really considered a true support. they are ad champs who get sometimes shoved into the support role simply for their CC,but they were never intended to be supports in the first place.

Also almost all of these champs can use item 3097 quite good as well.(the only exception would probably be nocturne)

Crett1 votes

never forget renekton support gap closer stun armor shred huge bases

Lucky Moniker3 votes

Ashe support is actually pretty useful, her perma slow and damage make for a rough lane. They tend to build a bit tankier and support oriented but by late game she is almost as good as a second adc

Sire Hippington2 votes

Ashe Gnar JarvanIV Kalista LeeSin Sion Trundle Volibear , and that isn't even coutning in varius cheese-lanes... though granted, most of them would prefer tank stats over ad if used as support...it's just sad that old zeke's doesn't exist anymore.

TurquoiseYoshi13 votes

I mean, there are no items for AD supports because there are no AD supports. Either the support is AP, a tank, or both. Literally any halfway-decent AD support should be built like a tank, with Relic Shield as the item.

DrCyanide2 votes

Well, that and any decent AD support would be a great Fighter and would go top lane.

HentRex2 votes

Riot still seems to think Ashe is a good support.

TurquoiseYoshi3 votes

I think that classification means that she is a utilitarian ADC.

HeadHonchkrow7 votes

{quoted}

she is a utilitarian

Ashe You get a happiness, and you get a happiness, everyone gets happiness!

Br4ndon8 votes

AD supports would be insanely snowbally. Scaling with AD means that they dont rely as heavily on skills to poke in lane. They can use AAs to poke which are free. They dont have to worry about farming so they can concentrate completely on poking with autos and have a permanent danger zone around them. Unlike AP supports who lose their zoning potential when they use their CDs.

One reason why thresh is always powerful is because hes about as close to an AD support we have. His E passive gives him powerful AAs early that make him a threat even when he used his CDs.

whensmarvel1 votes

This is the reason why I think if riot ever makes an AD support they will fall off hard late game but be really good early game.

Br4ndon1 votes

{quoted}

This is the reason why I think if riot ever makes an AD support they will fall off hard late game but be really good early game.

The only way that would work is if the support is melee with no AA modifiers and low bonus AD ratios only. Otherwise the build path would likely be similar to Zeds if it was a caster AD or Yasuos if it has a lot AA modifiers. Both scale pretty well.

Another issue would be for it to be a support it would need qualities about it that would make it do well as support. Such as CC, sustain or shields/buffs. If it ends up having that kind of utility and scales with AD itll probably just get used as a bruiser top or bruiser jungler.

MisterHealYoGirl7 votes

The three trees of support item support the three general kinds of botlane: all in (Relic Shield), sustain (Ancient Coin), and poke (Spellthief's Edge). Since most supports, and DEFINITELY most poke supports are AP, the poke item gives AP.

SaltyKracka6 votes

There's no such thing as a proper AD support, and there almost certainly isn't going to be one.

KRIXXLER2 votes

{quoted}

There's no such thing as a proper AD support, and there almost certainly isn't going to be one.

By adding an AD supp item you create room for someone to utilize it on an AD champion. Yasuo comes to mind when I think of this. His windwall, if used correctly can provide peel and he can CC with his Q.

DeynaTaggerung1 votes

Supports are more than people who chill bot lane and help the adc, they're also generally the team playmakers. It's their job to set up the right teamfight and then make sure everyone can do their thing properly. So saying "___ champ has this utility" doesn't necessarily make them a support.

KRIXXLER1 votes

{quoted}

Supports are more than people who chill bot lane and help the adc, they're also generally the team playmakers. It's their job to set up the right teamfight and then make sure everyone can do their thing properly. So saying "___ champ has this utility" doesn't necessarily make them a support.

Yasuo can Q and knock up the ENTIRE team and then stun them after windwalling a jinx ult and a morg Q. How is that not "supporting" the team?

MudintheWater6 votes

Frost Queen is the only AP support item, and it is extremely sub par imo. It has less base gold income than an avarace blade, so buy a relic shield then buy an Avarace blade and you get two gold income items and will outearn a frostqueen support fairly rapidly I'd guess.

Avarace blade is the only gold income item that can be putchased with another, and I think Riot did that for a reason. Start Coin or Shield (I would start shield) then build Avarace, and that's your AD support setup.

That said, most AD champions just don't offer the utility of AP champions, so you just don't see it often.

Eta: downvote me if you like, but I am not wrong.

GigglingAngel12 votes

{quoted}

Avarace blade is the only gold income item that can be putchased with another, and I think Riot did that for a reason. Start Coin or Shield (I would start shield) then build Avarace, and that's your AD support setup.

No. No. No!

Not a single support should be buying Avarice Blade, for any reason. Not only is crit chance a HORRIBLE stat for supports, but the gold income won't even balance out and become gold-efficient until around 40 minutes into the game. Also, this means you're giving up buying a Sightstone or the upgrade to the real support item on your first recall, just so you can get an item that gives 10% crit chance...

Unless you're just fooling around in bots, that's not acceptable under any circumstances.

MudintheWater2 votes

{quoted}

No. No. No!

Not a single support should be buying Avarice Blade, for any reason. Not only is crit chance a HORRIBLE stat for supports, but the gold income won't even balance out and become gold-efficient until around 40 minutes into the game. Also, this means you're giving up buying a Sightstone or the upgrade to the real support item on your first recall, just so you can get an item that gives 10% crit chance...

Unless you're just fooling around in bots, that's not acceptable under any circumstances.

You don't have to buy it on first back. If you are an AD Support -looking at Ashe - crit chance is a perfectly fine stat, especially with the way it works on her kit, and you certainly don't have to give up a sightstone to buy it.

Most people would argue AD support is only acceptable in normals anyways.

GigglingAngel6 votes

{quoted}

You don't have to buy it on first back. If you are an AD Support -looking at Ashe - crit chance is a perfectly fine stat, especially with the way it works on her kit, and you certainly don't have to give up a sightstone to buy it.

Most people would argue AD support is only acceptable in normals anyways.

Ashe is not a support.

MudintheWater2 votes

{quoted}

Ashe is not a support.

Then neither is Morgana. It is both their secondary role.

Madra2 votes

I've done support SIvir a few times for the right match up, which isn't many, but it works out decent against a support Morgana. Spell shield the bindings. Black shield does practically nothing. On the Hunt out of her ultimate. Coin plus avarice blade. We had an Olaf top lane, too, who was setting some Viking land speed records.

Bhagswag4 votes

She can be. Permaslow, a stun, free global warding.

But.. meh.

GigglingAngel4 votes

{quoted}

She can be. Permaslow, a stun, free global warding.

But.. meh.

Let's look at the details of everything you've listed.

  1. Permaslow: It's incredibly weak at the early levels, which is the most crucial time for bot lane. 5% slow is nothing. 11% is still pretty much nothing. It doesn't become noticeable until level 10, and that's way too late for a perma-slow to matter when it comes to being a support in bot lane.
  2. A Stun: It's her ult, and it's inferior to Sona's in most situations. Until level 6, there's nothing to help protect/sustain you or your adc other than a very weak slow and a little bit of poke.
  3. It's not warding. It's momentary sight. Warding is when you actually keep a specific area in sight for minutes at a time. The skill is useful when used correctly when in lane, but it's far away from what real wards do. The skill is more for scouting in mid-late game.

Basically, she's inferior as a support when compared to Sona in every way.
Sona has sustain for her and her partner, and Ashe doesn't.
Sona's ult is better than Ashe's.
Sona has a mediocre speed buff at early levels and a 40% slow, while Ashe only has a very mediocre "permaslow" at early levels. Sona's poke is better than Ashe's, since it prioritizes champions and doesn't get blocked by minions.

The only thing Ashe has going for her when compared to Sona is that she scales much better into late game, like most ADCs, but if she's a support, she's not going to be able to keep up with everyone else in terms of gold and experience ... which defeats that purpose.

Asayake 5150glow1 votes

{quoted}

Frost Queen is the only AP support item, and it is extremely sub par imo. It has less base gold income than an avarace blade, so buy a relic shield then buy an Avarace blade and you get two gold income items and will outearn a frostqueen support fairly rapidly I'd guess.

Avarace blade is the only gold income item that can be putchased with another, and I think Riot did that for a reason. Start Coin or Shield (I would start shield) then build Avarace, and that's your AD support setup.

That said, most AD champions just don't offer the utility of AP champions, so you just don't see it often.

Eta: downvote me if you like, but I am not wrong.

... gold items do not stack. You are wrong.

MudintheWater4 votes

[{quoted}](name=da plazma pika,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jhQ8Fryr,comment-id=00030002,timestamp=2015-10-06T23:56:26.312+0000)

... gold items do not stack. You are wrong.

Avarace blade is the exception to that rule. Go read the description. ""This item may be bought with another gold income item"" which means you can buy a relic shield and an Avarace blade and get the passives from both. They do not conflict.

You are wrong.

BobaFlautist3 votes

Jarvan maybe? Pantheon and Xin are also strong kill lanes, so maybe if you wanted to be a kill lane with support items? Um...op support urgot?

Dengeden3 votes

I don't think that would work, AD champs need armor pen and/or lifesteal to remain relevant.

As a sidenote, I'd like to add that some supports run AD marks for early game presence.

MAN OF INTELLECT2 votes

If the support is primarily building AD, then isn't the ADC doing that as well?

By their very nature, supports do not build full-out damage.

freeformline4 votes

But every support does have some source of damage, and most scale up a little bit from the AP on their items. An AD support would still be doing support levels of damage, it would just be physical damage rather than the usual magic damage most supports do.

pxst2 votes

Why no ad support is a pretty ez question riot didn't make one , fighter plus and adc is far different than support and adc first of all their have no cheap ad items , there have only cheap defensive items and ap items most ad items were big item like ie , bt , pd , trinity force , blade of ruin king , they all have relatively high cost. There for ad support is not exist because mainly support won't take any cs and sacrifice their gold for the adcarry , so most support were divide in to all in tank , sustain andI poke.which support most of the time have the less gold. Ad support just don't work. Also ad support plus adc would benefit enemy support for only building armor or armor runes to take less damage. Secondly there have not much ad champs got enough utility and most of them go full tank and are melee. So you might ask y don't have range ad damage support. For example as he have many cc(stun ult and slow aa and her e got vision , it don't work cause she's very immobile to roam warding or peel of her self. As you already mention most adc don't have cc , they die when they get caught. Janna lulu sona can peel off themself if they get caught by jg when they are roaming warding with their movement speed buff or cc. Ashe got nothing and it's really dangerous for her. If ashe support position worse in teamfight she will die as her aaslow is only gd for chasing not running. lastly support ashe or ad bruiser got 0 dueling power as they need to be tanky or deal damage either build full tank or full damage. Full damage =too squishy and rd die cause she already lack of item due to support lack of money. Half tank half damage don't work since adc or ashe were aa oriented have tank damage don't work against lifesteal champs as they sustain though your moderate damage. Therefore. There have no ad damage or even half damage tank support , full tank is only choice

Old Man Teeto2 votes

AD is not utility.

There is no spell that's utility scales with AD.

(But Muh Ashe Volley!) That spell will slow the same amount whether you have 4000 AD or 2 AD.

Everyone who requests an AD support item doesn't understand support and simply wants to play another carry with a gold gen item. IT IS A BAD IDEA JUST LIKE MAGIC THORNMAIL

Only Play Darius4 votes

{quoted}

AD is not utility.

There is no spell that's utility scales with AD.

Fiora

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

And that's why fiora is banned so often, she has TOO much utility; riven has a small area stun that only scales by her level, and she's all physical. Fiora has a ranged stun that can block ANY crowd control or targeted effect (including ignite & exhaust) that scales off her stats instead of by level. Imagine morgana's dark binding combined with sivir's spell sheild, and give it a 10 second cool down. Not to mention she's nearly as mobile as yasou, has an anti-tank passive like vayne; but her ult heals better than janna's. Fiora is incredibly overloaded and just as frustrating to fight as before.

Old Man Teeto1 votes

No.. Fiora is banned for being an insane duelist regardless of what she's fighting and what they've built.

Her ults utility simply means she can press R onto the first kill target in a team fight and her team landslide wins the rest of the fight when it proc's. While it's design is questionable, as is Fiora, it's a different attempt to make a melee carry operable in team fights without giving her the Yasuo treatment.

ZT Xperimentor1 votes

It still doesn't fit thematically, why would a duelist care about her team? A duel is between 2 people only, both before & after her rework, neither ultimate made sense because it affected more than herself and her target. Her ult should be something like khazix passive, performing better when facing one opponent by herself. But apparently nobody at riot knows anything about sword-fighting nor fencing.

crazydanddgnat1 votes

It's because an ad support would actually just end up being an overpowered solo laner.

You can't give ad champions support levels of utility, because it would either need numbers nerfed so hard that it would become useless as a gold-starved support, or it would be too strong as a solo laner.

Rıots Bad Client2 votes

I think hes asking for items, so that Pantheon , MonkeyKing and JarvanIV may be used as supp.

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