IE Change Nerf for Yasuo..?

Zair Umbras·Jan 16, 2015·1 votes·2,237 views

Well, I'm sure most wouldn't have quickly seen it, but as we know with Yasuo, he uses double the crit chance on items and his build with 5% from runes and then 45% from items gives him the standard 100% that gives him such sustained, harsh damage. Well, IE just had it's crit reduced to 20% from 25% in an attempt to curve ADC item choices, but that's also a direct hit at Yasuo who used to get a Shiv and IE for 100%. Now he'd be at 90%. While that's still high, a lot of players know how dreaded the RNGesus can be at times and that 10% can screw one over really, really hard. Anyone who uses an ADC knows how this feels too. Your opponent's ADC is critting non-stop with just an IE and you have an IE and a PD or Shiv and you're not having the same luck and it's really annoying. Well, Yasuo's entire kit is about critting, so when he doesn't crit, that's a huge chunk of missing damage. Personally, I don't know if this was intentional to be a hit to Yasuo to force him away from using a Shiv, but I'd kinda like to know if there will be any fixes to this or if we'll just have to adapt to using a Phantom Dancer instead of a Shiv and lose out on the potential 190-240 damage or pray to RNGesus before every initiation.

46 Comments

Hex the FenFenJan 16, 20157 votes

A lot of champions do well without 100% crit chance...and all of Yasuo's scalings are really good to where he still does a TON of damage...I'm so sorry you can no longer entirely cheese with 100% crit chance anymore, it looks like you will have to be with the rest of the "normal" AD champions now

Zair UmbrasJan 16, 20152 votes

Well, that would be true if it wasn't for the fact that you're also kinda wrong at the same time. A lot of RANGED champions do well without 100% crit chance. The melee champs who use crit haven't really been in a good place. Talons have been known to have an IE with a Ghostblade, but that's not required at all for him. Yi has his ups and downs, but overall suffers from what we know as 'Assassin Jungle Syndrome'. This syndrome is usually defined by worthlessness when not ten kills above everyone else on your team and provides almost no help to lanes without CC and usually excels at feeding the enemy team. Then there's Tryn. Tryndamere is Tryndamere. Where he sits no one knows. He's considering broken by some and worthless by others, but his true placement is completely unknown. He also have five seconds of his care cup being empty.

Yaaaassssuuuuooooo on the other hand is a mobile champion who's entire identity is based on combo'ing with another partner's knock ups and having very high item scaling. I'm not saying we can't live without that 5% on IE, but it is a rather odd nerf to a champion who was recently buffed because he wasn't doing so hot after the previous nerfs. Namely the 10% damage reduction on his crits. Normally with nerfs like these, they usually provide a buff for affected champions, which was the 5% gain on Phantom Dancer, but Yasuo is known for having a Shiv, not a Phantom Dancer. It's the entire point he has such a good mid-game, after all.

SouL1essJan 16, 20152 votes

You realistically only need 70% crit as ADC. It's still perfectly achievable, especially so for Yasuo.

Zair UmbrasJan 16, 20152 votes

Most ADC's had 40%-50%, but they also don't have to get into melee range with other champions to try to battle, letting them more safely get off damage. Yasuo has to get into melee range and doesn't have the same kind of defenses the other melee AD crit champs, namely Yi and Tryn. Yi having a huge damage reduc plus his Q making him temporarily untargetable and Tryn having 5 seconds of his care cup being empty. Yasuo makes up for this by having huge damage with his 100% crit chance, plus having the ability to chain up with a knock up. Crit is just... kind of his identity.

TalamareJan 16, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jR9Kkx86,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-01-16T08:44:17.574+0000)

Most ADC's had 40%-50%, but they also don't have to get into melee range with other champions to try to battle, letting them more safely get off damage. Yasuo has to get into melee range and doesn't have the same kind of defenses the other melee AD crit champs, namely Yi and Tryn. Yi having a huge damage reduc plus his Q making him temporarily untargetable and Tryn having 5 seconds of his care cup being empty. Yasuo makes up for this by having huge damage with his 100% crit chance, plus having the ability to chain up with a knock up. Crit is just... kind of his identity.

Yasuo has 4 seconds of haha nope projectiles

Zair UmbrasJan 16, 20152 votes

He has 4 seconds of no projectiles from a specific direction and has a long CD. 18 seconds at max rank. This ability also has been known to be a hit or a miss since the enemy can just... not waste abilities when they see it go up and then go ham as soon as it's done. If the enemies walk away from the wall, or in some cases, walk through it. Then there's of course the abilities that ignore the wall completely. It's not like Tryn who simply gives no f's for the entire duration. Well timed walls can be used to block important abilities, but I wouldn't consider it '4 seconds of haha nope projectiles'.

JustMyBassCannonJan 16, 20151 votes

That he either has to walk past in order to reach his targets, or stand behind and hope to every god he can name that the enemy blows even one important projectile on it.

Because any intelligent player against Yasuo is going to be wary of Wind Wall.

Mooing KevJan 16, 20152 votes

This is like saying the 300 g price reduction on qss is a nerf on zed.

Zair UmbrasJan 17, 20151 votes

Not... really? Yasuo actually requires crit chance and one of his core items is an IE. Reduce it's crit chance and now he's gotta make up for it in his runes because build-wise, he can't afford to give up any offense or defense, which then nerfs his already poor early game or you'll end up giving up on any armor/health seals or having to remove magic resist glyphs, buuuuut you really do need those glyphs to be able to sustain properly against like, any mid that has good aim. His E and W can only be used so much after all.

B3ERJan 18, 20152 votes

Crit chance is a retarded mechanic for a skill based competitive game. I get it in a PvE game, but keep that shit out of PvP. Meaningful choices my ass.

TalamareJan 16, 20151 votes

so get 10% from runes

JustMyBassCannonJan 16, 20152 votes

Repeating what I said earlier, that costs more than a full section of T3 runes. You can't get 10% from just Marks or just Quintessences. That's a pretty hefty cost.

SukishooJan 16, 20151 votes

If you balanced runes you can, but seeing your page has MS, Crit, Armor and S. MR...there's a lot of issues there we can't even begin to cover.

JustMyBassCannonJan 16, 20151 votes

Not that you really give a damn, but I haven't touched that rune page in months.

SukishooJan 16, 20152 votes

Since you're one of the people on the "whine about Yasuo" train, you might want to :)

JustMyBassCannonJan 16, 20151 votes

I showed up in a couple threads about Yasuo, explaining to people like you why they don't want to use Phantom Dancers. Because, apparently, math is hard. IE + PD, 55 * 2=110 Crit Chance.

SukishooJan 17, 20151 votes

But if your runes are made in the way that you have 10% then you can use other items that work just as well. I use 1 Crit Quint, 2 AD Quints, 9 Crit marks in order to do this.

So math isn't hard at all, if you know what you're doing :) Also, even if you were to go "over" it's really not hurting anything considering it's still getting the job done.

Zair UmbrasJan 18, 20151 votes

To use only 2 quints means you'll have about 5 AD compared to 11. While most would say 6 AD loss isn't crap, but early on, that 6 AD is really noticeable and makes his already poor early even worse. That would be like nerfing BotRK's attack speed. Overall, it would be a nerf to all champions who get it, but it would nerf Vayne and force her to stack attack speed in her runes to make up for it. Or if you nerfed Spell Vamp items because of Akali, making Morde and Vlad rage quit. Could also nerf Spirit Visage's healing because tanks don't need to gain that much health regen, amirite? Well, that'd slap Vlad and Aatrox. Let's also go with what Riot's planning to do with removing DFG and forgetting about buffing Ahri. Oh, she's now nerfed and oversighted, but that's okay 'cause she can just remove the magic resist glyphs and defensive seals to make up for that damage, right? Wrong. This would be horrible. Oversighting champions when you nerf an item is horrible and Riot has been pretty good about buffing the champions affected if it's needed, like they're buffing Ahri with the removal of DFG and buffed TF and Fizz when Lich Bane was nerfed. Yasuo didn't even get a mentioning with the nerf to Infinity Edge. They nerfed IE so it wouldn't be stupidly stronger than a BT for actual Marksmen and didn't even say they'd look at Yasuo to see if it would affect him or not.

SukishooJan 18, 20151 votes

That's actually not bad depending on what you're doing though. Like his page clearly has no extra early damage being that it had Movement Speed Quints. So I was suggesting something that rounds it out better and gives you the 10% crit that fits back with the change in the item.

As for an ADC, most should already be using Attack Speed runes (quints) because they were buffed when the rune changes were made and give you better value.

Zair UmbrasJan 18, 20152 votes

I've yet to see any ADC that wasn't Vayne use attack speed quints. Even when buffed, you get 14% from only Quints and that'd be at the cost of 7 AD. Most barely notice the difference from Zerker's and it's a 25% boost. It's not until you get the 40% from Shiv or 50% from PD as well as the bonuses from leveling that you actually notice your attack speed go up. 14% is also pretty useless on any champ that has an AS boost since AD scales much better, these champions being Varus, Kog, Graves, Quinn, Draven, Trist, and Sivir. Lucian can put it to use, but AD scales way better with his kit. Cait scales much better with AD than a 14% boost in AS. I could see it working well with Vayne and Kalista, both being more AS hungry champions, but most champions get more benefits from AD since their abilities scale from AD. And of course there's Ez and Corki who don't even get Zerker's and get a Trinity because they're more pokey-bursty champions and don't get the same benefit from AS as the others. Overall, it's usually best to have the extra 7 AD from quints.

Back on topic though... While his own rune page might scream horrible, most Yasuos prior to the nerf ran 3 AD Quints, 5/6 Crit marks, 3/4 AD marks, HP per level Seals, and Flat MR or Scaling MR glyphs. Yasuo is a mid champion and thus, health and MR are necessary to sustain their poke and bursts, the crit was for the 5%, and the AD was so that he could properly farm with the tip of his Q as well as poke with his tornadoes. Now you gotta remove every AD mark and replace it with Crit marks and then toss in a Crit quint. It's pretty painful to sit at a bonus of 4.5 AD instead of 11. It's really, really painful early on when 7 AD can make or break you. This does make crits happen a little more often early on, but the only champion I know of that can live off of RNG crit of 35% and lower is Tryndamere. Tryndamere's hidden passive is to have double crit chance, I swear. Even when I play him I feel like I crit way too often. lol.

SukishooJan 18, 20151 votes

Well then must not play that often, as I've seen tons of people go that way, and stay that way since they changed the runes.

Shiv. Pssh. People don't even buy the Shiv for the AS, they buy that for the proc cause half the time they can't cs properly, so they need something to clear the waves for them.

As for Yasuo.... Scaling HP... since when? I've never seen anyone go that way. Flat HP or Armor works far better, because you want that immediate protection.

TalamareJan 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Repeating what I said earlier, that costs more than a full section of T3 runes. You can't get 10% from just Marks or just Quintessences. That's a pretty hefty cost.

Then don't use JUST marks or JUST quint runes?

I use AD Reds and AD Quints I use AP Blues and AP Quints I use AS Reds and AS Quints

Deal with it

JustMyBassCannonJan 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Then don't use JUST marks or JUST quint runes?

I use AD Reds and AD Quints I use AP Blues and AP Quints I use AS Reds and AS Quints

You use those runes to gain an advantage, not to get back lost stats.

An actually adequate comparison would be Spell Vamp quintessences on Mordekaiser. You don't do that for an advantage, you do it so the champ can function properly.

TalamareJan 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You use those runes to gain an advantage, not to get back lost stats.

An actually adequate comparison would be Spell Vamp quintessences on Mordekaiser. You don't do that for an advantage, you do it so the champ can function properly.

Your fervent misguided sense of self entitlement is stunning!

You are already gaining a massive advantage by the fact that every single crit rune you use, is effectively counting as double You would literally be starting the game, LEVEL FREAKING 1 with 20% crit chance

Crit chance is literally the most expensive stat in the game. You are getting 1000g of stats from just reds and maybe a quint... Compare it to a full rune page of AD, that barely gets you 20 AD

gtfo

JustMyBassCannonJan 16, 20151 votes

Self-entitlement? Because I want to be able to customize a rune page, or function without one if I ever decided to smurf? What if someone new wanted to play Yasuo, only to find out they're gonna need runes to fix that?

Yasuo was a melee carry whose entire design is balanced around hitting 100% Crit Chance. They scaled his damage based on that design. That "advantage" he gains from doubled Crit Chance is the same advantage Tryndamere gets out of his free 35% Crit Chance and 25-60 bonus AD, or that Yi gets out of his +30% total AD and +80% AS. I have actually done the math and shown that these three champions end up with about the same amount of DPS after picking up the same three offensive items.

But, please, continue to explain how I'm self-entitled because I don't want to need Runes to hit exactly/just under 100%.

TalamareJan 17, 20151 votes

But, please, continue to explain how I'm self-entitled because I don't want to need Runes to hit exactly/just under 100%.

Get a triforce

Deal with it

Zair UmbrasJan 17, 20152 votes

A triforce? LOL. That item is HORRIBLE on Yasuo. Just 'cause his Q is on a short CD doesn't mean it'll actually be a good pick up. It's 'not bad' but that's... yeah. It's an incredibly expensive item and its actual stats are pretty iffy since it's AD is really low, the AS on it is incredibly tiny, the crit on it is horrible, and the proc is best put to use when it's the first item made, but because of it's stats and the ungodly low crit, it'd be a horrible rush item after a Shiv when compared to an IE or BotRK and of course it's not even close to the same amount of gold efficiency a Shiv is. Trinity is just an inefficient item on Yasuo and always has been.

TalamareJan 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jR9Kkx86,comment-id=00000000000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-17T08:29:23.126+0000)

A triforce? LOL. That item is HORRIBLE on Yasuo. Just 'cause his Q is on a short CD doesn't mean it'll actually be a good pick up. It's 'not bad' but that's... yeah. It's an incredibly expensive item and its actual stats are pretty iffy since it's AD is really low, the AS on it is incredibly tiny, the crit on it is horrible, and the proc is best put to use when it's the first item made, but because of it's stats and the ungodly low crit, it'd be a horrible rush item after a Shiv when compared to an IE or BotRK and of course it's not even close to the same amount of gold efficiency a Shiv is. Trinity is just an inefficient item on Yasuo and always has been.

The point was that there is a way to get 100% crit on Yasuo without needing runes and without going over 100% while also getting IE and Shiv

Have you ever thought that maybe Riot WANTED to nerf Yasuo in some small way, even if it was indirectly?

Let's be honest as long as Yasuo continues to dominate a 20% pick rate and 40% ban rate, he is likely to continue being nerfed. Seriously Yasuo players can be so damn whiny, you don't see Anivia players whining about her being nearly unplayable

Zair UmbrasJan 17, 20152 votes

I have NO idea where you get your information from but currently Yasuo is actually about 12% pick rate with an 8%ish ban rate. Irelia, Gnar, LB, Azir, Rek'Sai, Fizz, and Zed all have 30%-80% ban rates and all have about the same pick rate DESPITE being banned OVER THREE TIMES AS OFTEN. You can even check the current stats on LoLKing.net. Hell, I'll even give you the link! Yasuo was recently buffed in one of the last patches because he wasn't doing very well and considering even with those buffs his pick rate and ban rate haven't changed? I doubt they'd intentionally nerf him especially since they said the IE nerf was to make IE not as huge of first rush item. It's likely they didn't even think about Yasuo when they did the nerf.

TalamareJan 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jR9Kkx86,comment-id=0000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-17T12:41:54.796+0000)

I have NO idea where you get your information from but currently Yasuo is actually about 12% pick rate with an 8%ish ban rate. Irelia, Gnar, LB, Azir, Rek'Sai, Fizz, and Zed all have 30%-80% ban rates and all have about the same pick rate DESPITE being banned OVER THREE TIMES AS OFTEN. You can even check the current stats on LoLKing.net. Hell, I'll even give you the link! Yasuo was recently buffed in one of the last patches because he wasn't doing very well and considering even with those buffs his pick rate and ban rate haven't changed? I doubt they'd intentionally nerf him especially since they said the IE nerf was to make IE not as huge of first rush item. It's likely they didn't even think about Yasuo when they did the nerf.

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats

I like my site better because they remove bronze level games from their stats Tho, yes Zed, Rek, Kat & Fizz are banned more than him

Zair UmbrasJan 17, 20152 votes

Your site shows 'Gold+'. Congrats. It changed the numbers slightly. You should've done a little research on that website since I can click on one button and look at Yasuo's graphs. Since his buffs in December, his ban rate hasn't changed. Literally. He's gone almost as much up as he has gone down. Just looking at that, I can tell you that he's obviously not OP. If he was warranting a nerf, he'd have had his ban rate go up by more than a percent or two. His pick rate has gone up though since his buffs. A tiny bit.... but being picked often has never warranted a nerf and since his ban rate hasn't changed much since the day before his buffs to today other than a couple percent, he hasn't earned a nerf.

Where does any info anywhere show that Yasuo has warranted a nerf? They didn't even mention Yasuo being nerfed with the IE change. It was a ninja-nerf that they likely oversighted.

TalamareJan 17, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Zair Umbras,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=jR9Kkx86,comment-id=000000000001000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-01-17T14:45:20.198+0000)

Your site shows 'Gold+'. Congrats. It changed the numbers slightly. You should've done a little research on that website since I can click on one button and look at Yasuo's graphs. Since his buffs in December, his ban rate hasn't changed. Literally. He's gone almost as much up as he has gone down. Just looking at that, I can tell you that he's obviously not OP. If he was warranting a nerf, he'd have had his ban rate go up by more than a percent or two. His pick rate has gone up though since his buffs. A tiny bit.... but being picked often has never warranted a nerf and since his ban rate hasn't changed much since the day before his buffs to today other than a couple percent, he hasn't earned a nerf.

Where does any info anywhere show that Yasuo has warranted a nerf? They didn't even mention Yasuo being nerfed with the IE change. It was a ninja-nerf that they likely oversighted.

Ah yes the december buff? 5 ms and 1 sec cd reduction?

You realize that he maintained that steady ban rate thru the massive up and down of warwick, the sudden massive surge of reksai and jarvan. Not to mention the increase of kat, riven, leblanc and azir...

All champions that have increased in need for bans, yet Yasuo has maintained a steady need to be banned

Instead of fighting for champions that are strong, why don't you instead fight for the champions that are weak?

Defending Yasuo is as bad as defending Zed

Zair UmbrasJan 18, 20152 votes

Except Zed is an Assassin who has two different escape methods after he R's, has a slow, huge damage, and an AD steroid. Yasuo is an AA-based Melee Carry which has always had issues in the past, usually with them being Pubstomp in low ELO and not as common in higher ELO. This has become different because of Yasuo who is able to communicate with his team and work with them rather than split pushing and farming 24/7 and then winning the game by 1v5'ing because he's 5 levels above the enemy team and full build. It's very apparent you haven't actually used Yasuo too competitively, which continues to make your argument rather silly. My own Yasuo record is a bit spotty in ranked, especially since he does require teamwork and I'm not the best Yasuo, but anyone who plays Yasuo knows his real weaknesses and one of the biggest one is his need for items. Expensive items. His only 'cheap' item is his Shiv, which also gives him a big bonus to his damage with it's proc. All of his other items are incredibly expensive as anyone who plays ADC's often can tell you. A shut down ADC takes forever to get back into the game because of how expensive these items are and with how easy it is to shut down Yasuo in lane, plus with this nerf forcing even more AD out of his rune page really, really, really hurts.

As for fighting for champions who are weak... What champion is weak right now? Almost every single champion is viable at the moment, it's simply a matter of team composition and who you're facing. I've seen Tankgots (Tanky Urgot) go top and destroy and even when they lose lane, they're incredibly useful still with their tanky build and innate 15% damage reduc from his passive. I've seen Teemos more often, Evelynn is back with the buff to her E, Yorick is still played and always dominates the laning phase.... Only champions that need some love really are like... Morde or Taric. Morde because he has no CC, gap closer, speed boost, or any method to avoid being kited or to help him from being kited and Taric because he's just not in a very good spot right now. Other supports tend to out damage, out sustain, and out tank him. Taric has his pluses, but his laning phase doesn't compare.

Back on topic... this Thread is because Riot oversighted Yasuo with that nerf to Infinity Edge and haven't made a single word as to why they did it or that they even noticed that it was a nerf.

JustMyBassCannonJan 19, 20151 votes

That's extremely helpful...no, wait, what's the opposite of helpful?

Fucking useless?

Yeah, that. Thanks.

Leti the YetiJan 16, 20151 votes

have faith in RNGeezus.. that 90% is on your side

JustMyBassCannonJan 16, 20151 votes

80%

(20 + 20) * 2 = 80

PapotiKJan 16, 20151 votes

Aleluia

BeersteinJan 16, 20151 votes

"gives him the standard 100%"

item 3070 Amumu item 3073

Knight SoIaire Jan 17, 20151 votes

dunno ho we hiill live but there is a light at the end of the tunnel pd yasuo using pd as only crit item this way he has more space to build other stuff so it can also be vieble

DirewolfiezJan 18, 20151 votes

If it was unintentional, he'll be getting buffs soon. If it was intentional, like most indirect nerfs, Riot won't name him but it will still be in place.

Personally, I think his x2 crit chance is BS, and that a good part of his kit needs a rework to be less bull-shitty. My personal opinions aside, are you really complaining about only having 90% crit chance with Shiv? It's passive is too useful to pass up, even if he loses a measly 5% (or 10%, because of his passive) crit chance. I'm sorry, but you really seem like you're whining because your champ isn't as facerolly as before. Yasuo is strong, and he'll always be strong as long as his kit stays the way it is. I know that all mADCs have bullshit kits, but pointing that out and asking for buffs on a strong champion that used to be nightmarish to play against...just no. Please, for the love of God, no.

ZamiakeJan 18, 20151 votes

wasnt nerfed the 5% was jsut moved to phanton dancers to make people who want crit builds to actually build phantoms instead of shiv

Zair UmbrasJan 18, 20151 votes

It was a nerf to IE to open up BT as a rush item again, as they explained in the post. They wanted to remove some of the power without actually hitting ADC's late games, so they nerfed it and buffed PD. They did this for ADC's though, the Marksmen. Unintentionally nerfed Yasuo and they haven't said a word about.

ZamiakeJan 19, 20151 votes

its because the devs have a bunch of moronic short sighted boobs calling the shots now. All the new people need to be put in their place.

Just look at the Dc'ed garen ZZportal exploit. Number one cause of that problem? Short sighted decisions on how to fix things without thinking them through FULLY. Riot seriously needs a extremely seasoned player to become a theory crafter for them to think this crap through to stop all these short sighted issues

Zair UmbrasJan 19, 20151 votes

Well, actually... Zz'Rot was caused not because of short sighting, it was caused by PBE players averaging bronze level play at best. The players are the same ones who begged Riot for nerfs on Rengar and Syndra, two champions who were considered unviable upon release and had to get rather large buffs before they became the incredible champions they are now. Riot has issues because GOOD players don't play on the PBE. It's not worth it since there's no pluses or bonuses for playing on there other than to see if the new champion's kit is any good, which even then it's not possible to test because there's too many people who are bad that play on the PBE and you can't compare a champion's kit when you're Diamond or Challenger and your enemy is Bronze at best. You'll stomp them with AP Urgot and make them cry that it's OP. lol. I've had a PBE account since S2. It's gotten better, but not enough to matter. Plus the 5-10 minute long que times just to get people who call lanes and end up never connecting due to not being from NA and not comprehending PBE is based in California. 300 ping 'cause being European OP and all and most just use the PBE to test out champions they don't currently own because you get every champion and nearly every possible rune for free as well as some free skins.

ZamiakeJan 19, 20151 votes

cool.....On a side not use line breaks more i stopped reading half way through because i would get lost in your wall of text