Azir and deciding on where to go next

CameronM94·Sep 29, 2016·3 votes·1,451 views

Hello to everyone on the NA forums,

I have created a post in the EUW forums regarding Azir and where he currently is.

I have linked the post and there a bunch of great ideas on there already and if you're interested you should take a look. I will copy the text of the post below and add the same poll for you all to vote how you think riot should approach Azir if at all. Thanks:

Previous text post:

To clarify straight away, I want to create this discussion to tell Riot my thoughts on Azir and if there's anyone who agrees for them to add their support.

I personally feel that Azir is situationally strong in the sense that he can either be stomped or can carry hard. This is how I imagine it should be for every champion, with strong and weak match ups.

I do not believe that he needs a re work of his kit, I think it defines him as a champion. (Yes I'm looking at you shurima shuffle) If there was ever anything to change about Azir, I would say some of his numbers could be changed. Do not be mislead, I am not referring to his damage but his survivability, this ranges from his base armour/health and movement speed to help him survive the early and mid game.

Something to I want to say personally to riot is that Azir is my favourite champion and has been for some time and would be disappointed if he was to be reworked into something not quite Azir and if it was my choice, I would keep him as he is now rather than change him.

Thanks to whomever takes the time to read this

24 Comments

AstôlfoSep 29, 20161 votes

Azir's kit is pretty much all iconic, but he does need a rework in my opinion. His insane versatility is the entire reason he was a problem in the first place.

Some places to look at would be his E because of how much safety and mobility it gives him, the range of his soldiers' auto range/tether range, Q range, his passive, and his ult potentially. Out of those, I feel the E is the most problematic.

Yes, his Shurima Shuffle is an iconic play to him, but I feel as if he could be a lot healthier and actually be buffed to not-garbage with it removed.

CameronM94Sep 29, 20162 votes

I see the points that you're making but then again, you have to take this into consideration,

To get any meaningful distance from his mobility, you have to use 3 spells: W-E-Q(W-Q-E) all of which cost mana and can't be done again for about 10 seconds (E usually) and that's after getting a few levels and that's assuming one of those spells isn't already on cooldown.

It also costs reasonably large amounts mana to do this, it can't be done strenuously like let's say Zed, Leblanc, Kassadin who can remain safe even though the reward is high for their safe engages.

The only survivability Azir has is the shuffle, you could say use your ult but then your ult isn't up as frequently as let's say LB W.

All in all I appreciate that you have replied and regardless of whether we disagree, hopefully riot can come to a solution that pleases everyone :)

VeraskaSep 29, 20161 votes

I wouldnt compare azir to leblanc as they fall into entirely different classes i think removing the E and replacing it with something less mobile is the best answer to making azir an actually fair champion when his numbers are decent removing his dash does these things for azir:

-removes a lot of his extraneous power and versatility, azir does a lot of things and 1 of those things is the shuffle

-alligns his strengths and weaknesses with other mages similar to him. To me, azir is a late game oriented DPS mage that revolves around using his long range and ultimate to stay safe while his soldiers do his dirty work, there's no reason a champion like this should want to dive into the enemy team

-accentuate an actual weakness, ussually mages and sustained damage carries dont like it when people jump on them with the exception of 2 champions: tristana, who has had her base attack speed reduced so much that, in theory she HAS to use her rocket jump aggressively (this rarely plays out as intended which is why shes never buffed) and Azir who has been nerfed endlessly for his strengths and agency

In short, long range + mobility + disengage is too much safety for a carry

Now you could argue nerfing azirs range and total damage to bring him in line with the battlemage class (stuff like vladimir and karthus) champions who want to be in the middle of the fight which is fine, but i think it lacks thematic cohesion. Azir is a golden emperor of shurima who commands his loyal subjects to act out his will, it doesnt seem to make sense for a guy like that to want to be in the thick of things

Thats my thoughts on Azir

AstôlfoSep 29, 20161 votes

Zed, LeBlanc, and Kassadin are all champions that rely on high mobility because they're all single-target burst. Azir is mass AoE/multi-target with far longer consistent ranged DPS. He shouldn't have additional mobility/safety on top of that in the first place when his passive and ultimate is already incredibly strong denial to just about anyone and anything.

By removing his dash, his mana costs could be lowered and he could be actually reasonably buffed elsewhere.

CameronM94Sep 29, 20161 votes

His damage comes from auto auto attacks, not spells so he has to stay in fights for extended periods of time, he cannot throw out spells and back away so I feel that warrants an escape, his kit reflects that. Without a dash he would surely get caught out all to much.

Look at range mages and their defensive capabilities: lux = snare, xerath = stun, velkoz = knock up

all of these champs have some line of defence where Azir looking at it objectively has his ult but surely with the high cooldown can't be relied on to escape every engage.

I appreciate the points you've made but I feel removing the dash all together would be a step in the wrong direction.

AstôlfoSep 29, 20161 votes

One or two autos + Q can decimate a squishy's health at full build (as intended, as a lategame hypercarry). His long range means he doesn't have to be close in the first place when he can attack over just about any obstacle.

Azir's defensive capabilities come from his passive, his long range and even longer Q range, his E dash, his E shield, and his all-encompassing ultimate. His dash is the problematic one.

Unlike the others you've listed, he has a lot longer range than most as well as far faster consistent DPS.

CameronM94Sep 29, 20161 votes

To be fair, any Mid laner late game can kill an ADC just as easy by that point, Lux Q + Ult, she's out of range, the difference is that Azir has to stay present to be in range of his Auto's and can't move whilst doing so.

Azir's passive is up every hundred(s) of seconds, it can't be consistently used all game. I just want to stress that whether they remove the ability to Q whilst dashing, without his mobility he will become dumpstered since he doesn't have the defensive capabilities of a mage or the mobility of a mobile mage, ziggs etc.

I personally think his Q at full range is that of a lux Q, xerath Q, Velkoz Q if aimed correcly etc.

It's hard to compare Azir to other champions because he is almost unique. The thing is, he hasn't been used in competitive play, his winrates although you could argue them, are low enough that they don't warrant nerfs. I would just rather he is kept the same which is a high skill cap rewarding champion than fall short like other reworks

AstôlfoSep 29, 20161 votes

He has dominated competitive play for so long and so hard which is why he got gutted which is why his winrates are trash now. With a kit as versatile as his, even slightly good numbers = pro players will be a monster on him.

CameronM94Sep 29, 20161 votes

So do you believe after being gutted that he is okay now?

I think what they did to him was justified since he did as you say dominate and after his number change, I think he is in a good spot right now.

Thanks for the reply :)

AstôlfoSep 29, 20161 votes

He's okay in the sense he's not overbearing and dominating everywhere, but he is garbage at the moment and will remain garbage without fairly large kit changes/a rework due to him being forced to stay weak numbers-wise because of how versatile his kit is.

CameronM94Sep 29, 20161 votes

See personally I don't think he's garbage right now, I've mained Azir before and after the nerfs and I can say that he is still a credit to a team, his numbers are weak early and strong late which is a fair trade off.

I think the only numbers that need changing are his base movement speed to help survive early/mid game.

Besides that his numbers are golden. I will hold my hands up and say the nerfs up until now are fair and he is in a perfect spot.

Just my opinion though :)

AstôlfoSep 29, 20161 votes

In Plat/Dia+ where just about everyone knows how to play around Azir's soldiers and deal with him rather easily (and even more so in his current state), he's been doing quite horribly for over the last 2 years. Generally the only high level players that have actually done well with him are within around the top 0.2% of the global playerbase. Of those players, the majority of them are Master/Challenger with hundreds of Azir games.

CameronM94Sep 29, 20161 votes

With that said, I'm sure the player level you're describing would be able to play around any champion, Azir being no exception. I personally am only Silver but know my way around Azir and yourself are in Bronze so I'm sure none of us can really comment on the 0.2% of master tier.

AstôlfoSep 29, 20161 votes

Yes, they can, at that level. The issue is, most people are still terrible at Azir at that level, while most people also know how to play against him at that level.

Also, I wasn't aware Rank prevents looking up what high ELO people have to say.

CameronM94Sep 29, 20161 votes

I wouldn't say they are terrible.

Also when I mention your rank, I'm referring to the ELO that we both know, neither of us have experience at that high elo so we can't really comment.

I follow some great azir players at high elo, Bjergsen for example and he seems to be doing pretty well with Azir.

AstôlfoSep 29, 20161 votes

Yes, Bjergsen is also one of the best players in the world. I can't comment on high ELO off my own experience, that should be obvious. I am going off what I have seen and heard what high ELO people say.

DRECKlessSep 29, 20161 votes

nobody understands that the shuffle leaves him completely vulnerable. It is very hit or miss and requires a huge amount of mana. If it lands you are rewarded, if it misses you're probably dead.

CameronM94Sep 29, 20161 votes

I've been in that situation many a time, one word = awkward aha. Thanks for the reply

1 800 MID LANESep 29, 20161 votes

If Azir's kit got reworked, I'd probably quit playing him unless he's somehow equally appealing to me, and reworking his kit makes that highly unlikely.

The problem is that his kit (His KIT. Not his current state, so don't get it twisted. I've had enough of that shit.) is pretty busted compared to similar DPS carries. If he were relatively balanced in solo queue (let's say something similar to Lee Sin's statistics), he'd be literally 100% pick/ban in LCS and whatever team managed to get him would practically be handed a free win. That might be somewhat stretched, but he was already severely problematic there for a good year or more and only got a relatively high win rate just before the S6 nerfs.

While it's not fair to people who are trying him out to keep him in his current state, it's also pretty unfair to the people who've put in the insane amount of effort learning him to rework his kit. Unfortunately for me and other Azir mains, majority rules and this is the VAST majority here.

CameronM94Sep 29, 20161 votes

Thing is, with the right numbers his kit becomes justifiable, I believe as you've said his current state isn't the problem and the numbers on his kit although hard to swallow at first feel just now.

The point I am making is I would rather keep his kit the way it is now over a re-work and if he was ever to be dare I say it buffed, I would only change his movement speed/base health and leave his damage in the good spot that it is now.

I appreciate the reply :)

VallalanSep 29, 20161 votes

Azir is already squish, slow as fuck though. his damage has already been nerfed. Azir is honestly fine now. in the mid game he hits a lot less hard. I didn't think the nerfs would work, but it did. his lane phase is good, his mid game falls off, and his late game is as beast as ever.

the problem with azir is that he can do too much. you say the shurima shuffle defines him, well he's defined as being good at everything because of it?

lets look at what azir CAN do if played properly:

1.) engage 2.) peel 3.) has mobility to escape 4.) has mobility to chase 5.) highest consistent dps in the game for a mage (maybe tied with cass, but azir can theoretically hit multiple people with his soldiers) 6.) pick potential (with rylais) 7.) burst damage (on squishies his combo will burst someone hard, sure he's not annie, but if he gets someone with his ult and Q they are dead) 8.) safe wave clear 9.) poke 10.) siege potential 11.) counter siege potential (both with turret passive 12.) fast turret taking (even with W removed he still has fast attack speed and can take turrets quickly)

literally. he does everything. there is no reason to not pick azir if he is good. the shurima shuffle being removed would remove 1,3,4 at the very least. he is good at literally everything.

CameronM94Sep 29, 20161 votes

I'm not sure whether you are for or against keeping Azir but just a point that you made,

All of those points you've listed are if Azir is being played perfectly, if you were to name other champs you could list a long page of pro's that they had if played 100% perfectly.

In reality, the majority of people cannot efficiently play and cover all of those points, he covers a lot but you have to be realistic.

Either way I appreciate the reply :)

DRECKlessSep 29, 20161 votes

I think his damage is in the right place but his utility has been nerfed to the point where he no longer can fend for himself in this meta.

Soldier damage: is in the exact place it needs to be Speed: too slow to keep up, gets out rotated too easily Ult: needs to be given parts of its utility back, the speed boost, a little extra duration.

Or if you can't balance him with utility get rid of the shuffle. I used to play azir without his shuffle for 2 seasons and never felt like I had an identity problem. He accomplishes what he needs to without it and allows for more counter play. If you do this though, his ult needs to be given back utility, or he needs higher movement speed.

CameronM94Sep 29, 20161 votes

Personally I believe he is still viable, I just think it's more match up based now, I wouldn't be happy taking him against Leblanc/Zed but then there are many people in the mid lane that I wouldn't, I feel Azir is now a situational pick which is perfect, since it's supposed to be that way with champs having good/bad match ups.

I think personally if his ult duration was increased that would be enough for me but then that probably already seems risky for riot, but at bare minimum some movement speed on it's own to compensate.

Thanks for your reply