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@Riot: Why can Diana be strong but Akali isn't allowed to be?

yay nibbers··4 votes·1,746 views

First off: This is not supposed to be a QQ thread, though I do get pretty salty when I'm playing against Diana and that probably shows. I really am interested to know what the deal is though. I'm not looking to argue balance because I'm really not sure I'm seeing the whole picture here. Here's how I see it though...

Diana has a similar kit to Akali's, mark and dash and do massive damage. Thing with Diana's kit though is it's a bit more reliable save for the the weird shaped skillshot Q. Diana, unlike Akali, isn't countered by pink wards. Akali has to use her shroud to hide while she waits for her Q cooldown if she doesn't instantly kill the target, which she can't do if they plop down a pink ward. Diana on the other hand, has a damaging shield that refreshes after dealing damage to keep her in a fight, as well as her crazy high damage passive every third hit. Diana has some sustained damage and some survivability on top of doing insane burst damage with her Q+R+W combo. On top of all this, her Q has a longer range than Akali's, grants vision on those hit, and her E pulls people in then slows them while revealing them at the same time. This means her kit also has more utility than Akali's which makes her useful for more than just assassination of carries in a team fight. Assuming the enemy team knows to pink ward, Akali's shroud is at best a movement and escape tool with the speed boost it gives and the relatively small slow it applies.

Basically, what I want to know is this: Why is a champ like Akali, that is countered by one 100 gold item, nerfed so much while a functionally similar but better champion (Diana) gets to stay strong and painful and annoying to play against? Maybe I'm missing something, and I probably am, but from what I've seen they have the same annoying play patterns only one is much easier to shut down than the other. So what gives?

EDIT: Starting to better see what's going on between the two champs, thanks guys!

26 Comments

Stiv12344 votes

She has to hit her Q to burst you down. Akali has point-and-click.

  • guys in low Elo be like "100 gold for 0 damage? what a noob item lol wtf imma rush void staff cuz i like penetrating things"
Penns3 votes

Not exactly true tho. Im Gold 2, so "low elo", and I insta buy upgraded red/ yellow trinket every game against champs like Talon, Akali,...
But that doesnt exactly help if she has some kills, it doesnt stop her damage while dodging Diana Q kinda does.

Mecha MaIphite2 votes

Taric penetration is the way to go

Baunjo1 votes

Do you realize that diana has a refreshing shield and an AoE pull? I don't give a fuck whether or not she has to hit her Q, that is a mighty fine kit for an assassin.

Stiv12342 votes

If an assassin can't burst his target down, it is NOT a fine kit for an assassin.

yay nibbers1 votes

Fair enough point with the point-and-click champions and those playing them should be rewarded for performing well on harder champions. Though I disagree that low elo not buying pink wards is a good enough reason to do much if anything.

The Yetii Rider3 votes

Akali has and functions very well with spell vamp. That is the only reason.

Riot can't balance spell vamp at all so they do their best to keep champs that use it (Akali, Kennen, Mordekaiser, Kayle, and Vladimir) down.

They flat out took it away from Olaf.

As always Lee Sin is the exception.

Abyssphere1 votes

{quoted}

Akali has and functions very well with spell vamp. That is the only reason.

Riot can't balance spell vamp at all so they do their best to keep champs that use it (Akali, Kennen, Mordekaiser, Kayle, and Vladimir) down.

They flat out took it away from Olaf.

As always Lee Sin is the exception.

This isn't true. Kennen has received nothing but buffs recently and when they last nerfed Akali they didn't mention her spell vamp usage at all. In fact they've gone on record to say that in her upcoming rework, she will likely continue to have synergy with spell vamp as a stat. Her problem is being an assassin with absolutely no chance of failure once a target comes into view. That's it.

Baunjo1 votes

lee sin gains very little health from that spell vamp. It is more or less to keep him alive in the jungle, not tear apart teams while gaining crazy health back

LaughingMan112 votes

{quoted}

lee sin gains very little health from that spell vamp. It is more or less to keep him alive in the jungle, not tear apart teams while gaining crazy health back

At the same time, he is (save for his shield) an all AD champion, why does he -need- spellvamp, he doesnt really gain much from it, because he has no reason to really buy any item that gives more spellvamp b/c he doesnt really have synergy with it.

Baunjo2 votes

So I could be wrong on this, but I believe spell vamp is not specific to AP. The only reason you don't see AD champions build that is the only items that include spell vamp also Include AP and other stats that help AP champions more.

LaughingMan111 votes

{quoted}

So I could be wrong on this, but I believe spell vamp is not specific to AP. The only reason you don't see AD champions build that is the only items that include spell vamp also Include AP and other stats that help AP champions more.

Spellvamp gives you HP back on any skill that doesnt apply on hit effects, or activate on next AA. So, yeah, SV on Lee works for his Q and his Ulti, and his W. But like i said, he doesnt build any additional SV because he doesnt really need the AP.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

{quoted}

lee sin gains very little health from that spell vamp. It is more or less to keep him alive in the jungle, not tear apart teams while gaining crazy health back

25% spell vamp at level 18 is literally press a button grab 250 health back at baron, dragon or in the jungle. It's significant late and it's noticeable early. It helps him stay healthy enough to gank without needing Trailblazer, which is not an option for Pantheon, Wukong, or pretty much any other early game jungle. Even Rengar and Kha don't heal that much, Rek'sai is the only equal offender.

Baunjo3 votes

Are you drunk? Pantheon Rengar and Kha'zix all have a substantially healthier clear than lee sin.

yay nibbers1 votes

Makes sense. Akali does a lot of single target damage, so building spellvamp on top of her passive spellvamp does end up getting her a lot of HP back in fights and especially in lane from minions who lack any MR.

WolfChases3 votes

Why are you downvoting him? Guy is right at some points tho, he's just expressing his opinion and that's right.

Anyways, back on the topic.

Diana has to be stronger than Akali because her Q is a skillshot based spell and her ult has 18 sec CD after 1st cast while akali can spamm it and has resets.

That doesn't means Akali should be as weak as she is in his current state, her E is basically useless spell that deals close to no damage and it has to be buffed.

Baunjo5 votes

Akali doesn't have AoE CC and a Damaging and refreshing shield...

yay nibbers1 votes

Downvotes are fine as long as discussion occurs, indeed I'm just expressing my opinion and want to hear what others think so I can better my opinion.

Diana has a reset for her ult as well but it's fully dependent on her Q which has a fair cooldown for what it is and is a skillshot, which is pretty fair. Rewarding skill is always nice.

Akali is getting a rework soonish, whenever that may be. From everything people are saying here, it seems her point-and-click nature and her spellvamp are the biggest issues. If you ask me, I think her passive should be completely redone. Her E needs work too, all I use it for when I play Akali now is last hitting champs that don't explode from her normal combo or to proc sheen/lichbane when taking turrets

Iceember1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ron Pitts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ii0vdeiR,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2015-08-29T19:25:07.855+0000)

Akali is getting a rework soonish, whenever that may be. From everything people are saying here, it seems her point-and-click nature and her spellvamp are the biggest issues. If you ask me, I think her passive should be completely redone. Her E needs work too, all I use it for when I play Akali now is last hitting champs that don't explode from her normal combo or to proc sheen/lichbane when taking turrets

Her spellvamp is fine as is imo. Everyone complains about that but you never see anything about WW or Atrox passive lifesteal, even though they heal much more than spellvamp on Akali. Gotta remember the only AD most Akalis build is from gunblade. So it's 20% + her passive (Which is stagnant and only increases with ad/ap) is approx 30%. Not a huge amount of someone can burst you for 2k hp. (Most games by the end I have 1.8k -2.4k hp (depending on build)

Point and click is fine on Katarina though?(She bursts for more than an Akali can , especially that ult..)

Her E is an issue in relation to its utility. Yay waveclear and a few early cs!!!

Btw to anyone talking about Akali having a good early game: Nah. Pre-6 Akali is not as good as you think 6% spellvamp with a spell that does 80 base damage is an extra few hp and it does count alot but at the same time my 3 health pots do more for sustain.

asamu2 votes

It's because Akali has stealth and can't miss with anything.

Point and click delete champions don't work in LoL because damage is too high for them to be allowed to be viable.

Iceember2 votes

My salt is more with katarina who I feel has a much more similar kit (this is assuming Kat has kills and is getting her resets)

So a point and click Mark. Both have one.
Kats does deal less and proc for less but the thing bounces! Giving her insane waveclear and if she pays attention to where it bounces can reveal a stealthed enemy. Akalis marks a single target but procs for more damage, however does not proc off her abilities and in turn doesn't help with waveclear.

Spin attacks, both have one of these. Kats, again, does less damage but she can use it while moving. This means she can be running from an enemy and still dealing damage. Not to mention even with just one point has a fairly short cd. Akalis does more base damage , however, scales off of AD (most akalis build ap btw.) It also stops movement for a short channel whilst casting. It has a very short cooldown at all levels but is rarely used due to high resource cost..

Gap closing blinks: Both have them and they work pretty well the same, dash to target and deal a small amount for magic damage. Although Kats does allow for escapes by dashing onto allies but in all fairness akali does get 3 charges onto her dash.

What's left ? Kat Ult and Akali W. Perfect Now here's where I think things get a bit skewed, especially keeping in mind Kat can use her E as an escape, and it resets off of kills or assists.

Kat Ult: lots of damage, 3 targets, but she channels. So more damage! Great against, ADC, Support, annd their (hopefully) squishy mid laner. You just took out half their team solo. The downside is you are super vulnerable to cc and you can't guarantee you'll hit the targets you want to. Although this CD is reduced by her passive too so a double kill nearly brings it off cooldown if just used.

Akali w: Umm well it's a freaking Stealth bubble! And it boosts your movespeed! And slows them! (not a lot tho). However it is hard countered by a 250 gold upgrade or a 100 gold ward. Also, you need to channel while casting so if you need it in a moment's notice you better be fast on your key press. And even though it stealths you, it's a bubble. The enemy will wait and unless you can somehow wall flash, Ult to something that isn't death waiting, or just run and pray, they will see you and you are likely to die. Did I mention pinks? Although the outplayed potential is huge via the shroud it just doesn't have much use in the middle of fights and almost seems out of place, however I would be sad to see it replaced too.

Anyways those are my thoughts, take em as you will. I think both are good champions but I just wish akali had more utility in regards to W and E..

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

A,A QRWRE muh mechanics

The Sword Saint1 votes

Because all of akali's damage (e doesn't count, its a waveclear spell now) is point and click, she can't run out of mana in lane (which combined with her passive makes her difficult to push out of lane during a time which should normally be an assassins weakest point), her ult starts with 3 charges and resets on kills and assists....

The end result is that if akali has more stats than you, you can't possibly fight her while if diana has more stats than you, you can still dodge her q or wait for her to ult and then avoid it somehow (with a flash or a knockback or something) to prevent her from getting an ult reset, you can avoid her when her shield is up or have her waste it on minions, she does run out of mana especially if using shield in lane to avoid harass (unlike akali she doesn't get spellvamp as part of her kit or energy).

So, because diana is 'healthier' in general she's allowed to have higher stats. Riot has said they are working on akali changes, but details are scarce right this moment.

yay nibbers1 votes

Getting a lot of "point and click", which is a fair point but thanks for going farther than that. One thing I'd like to point out is Akali's ult starts with 1 charge and builds up and gets charges from kills and assists.

That all makes sense though. Akali not really having any low points in lane and in general really is a fair reason to keep her down. Her passive spellvamp especially doesn't help seeing as most of her damage is single target it is therefore fully applied and quite substantial.

encyclopedea1 votes

The main issue is, as we've found out on both Kha'zix and Akali, that having an assassin that can easily kill you instantly for very little set-up and has a reset-able gap-closer tends to be a little unbalanced.

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