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Tank meta is Stupid...

Ice5··9 votes·3,671 views

Most people will Probably disagree and even flame me but at least hear me out... And before i say anything i need to say that I LIKE LEAGUE....But...I cant help but feel that this season was bad....

The overall community plays ranked "for fun" ranked games are not suppose to be for fun they are suppose to be competitives! Fun are normal games. Therefore we are showered with threads of how "OP" are damage dealing champions when snowballing... High risk champions should also be high reward but they really are not...

Riot keeps buffing champions like Garen,darius Mundo, Malphite or Morde when literally the best play you can do with Morde is Flash Q Champions that even if you underperform early game you can keep up by cloth armor,ruby crystal your way up to the big items..

why are low skilled champions so high rewarding when champions like Fiora,riven,yasuo,zed,azir,vayne,kalista are constantly nerfed...Shoudnt we want to see "Plays" instead of a Disgusting Darius penta in worlds (FW VS OG)

There is minimal cost to a mistake with a tanky champion you can be 0/5 malphite 30 minions behind in cs and you can still be safe behind turret....because its nearly impossible to get dived (Thanks to the new Turrets) And i know that people are going to say 1v3 shoudnt be possible in a team game but why not? If i am 10/0 with a Duelist i should be able to carry the game....I should be able to make a difference because the enemy team "LET ME" get fed....they had the choice to help their laner but they CHOSE not to....But right now even if i am 10/0 the game is still going to end in 40 mins no matter how well my team plays!

I am also very confused in why riot keeps reworking champions with high popularity why rework riven when they could rework champions with so low pick rate like urgot,singed,poppy,yorick thats literally beyond me....

Overall if you read this far thank you for reading and please let me know of your opinion :) Hopefully this Meta will change

(PS instead of making threads about stupid stuff like OMFG why i cant ping on a poro anymore we should focus on actual Gameplay more so maybe this game can evolve...)

152 Comments

Lugg16 votes

Personally, I think the tank meta was the most balanced meta ever. There was the highest ratio of viable champions ever and the games (on average) were much closer.

Ice53 votes

Balanced? Please explain to me how it is balanced where you can cloth armor your way up to the big items...i can destroy my enemy on top lane but i will still get turtled on the second turret, this eliminates split pushing for a lot of champions unless your advantage is so huge that you can 1v3 why forcing the game to be a turtle of team fights and wait whoever ends up being caught in the wrong place for a team to win...Is that what we want in the game? Playing a farming contest ? (Since risk is not as rewarding as it should be?)

Kaeblen4 votes

and wait whoever ends up being caught in the wrong place for a team to win...Is that what we want in the game?

First, I'll assume English not your first language. Second, why would you not want players to be rewarded for catching their enemy out of position?

Ice52 votes

It is not, and thank you for spending time reading my thread even though my english is not on a good level. But honestly is this what we want to see in a competitive game? A drag of 45 mins to see which team has the dumbest player that will roam the map?

HexaDecimel2 votes

Do you want the game to be determined based on who gave first blood to the assassin?

Ice52 votes

I want the game to be determined by actual skill factor.... So people can be actually pushed to make plays if they want to win. I mean think of this a bronze 2 Garen can play in a diamond 5 game no problem sure he wont be the teams ace and certainly he wont be able to farm as much but he will still be able to turtle Riven Give the same Garen to Play Riven/Azir/Vayne/Khalista/fiora etc on his next game in diamond and check the results....

HexaDecimel1 votes

Since you seemingly value facts, can you provide factual evidence of a Bronze 2 player actually beating a Diamond player in a 1v1 scenario that provided no significant advantage to either player.

This game will always be determined by skill, if not yours, then someone else's. Skilled players can find ways of winning regardless of the scenario or champions. And yes, a bad match up, unskilled teammates, or higher skilled competition can make winning extremely difficult. But the primary focus is still skill and this game is in no way noob friendly.

Ice52 votes

You are stubborn and you wont really try to understand the point i am making so we can have a reasonable conversation Darius/Morde/garen etc etc are noob friendly champions they are strong and safe to play in any lane phase without any significant counterpick Skill is important but these champions are Noob friendly in NO UNIVERSE they should be as rewarding as Champions that require Risk and a high skill cap!

junglerboy1611 votes

This is most certainly NOT tank meta.

Tank meta was when champs like Sion, Sejuani, and Maokai were really good and everything was about super tanky CC machines and prolonged teamfights.

What we have now my friend is the BRUISER meta, or the heavy fighter meta where everything is centered on the metagolems/off-tanks who can tank for ages and kill everything else in sight. I don't think it is the healthiest meta either, but to be fair, they went over a year and a half waiting for their turn in the spotlight, and they are getting some pretty substantial nerfs across the board.

Lovelle7 votes

{quoted}

This is most certainly NOT tank meta.

Tank meta was when champs like Sion, Sejuani, and Maokai were really good and everything was about super tanky CC machines and prolonged teamfights.

What we have now my friend is the BRUISER meta, or the heavy fighter meta where everything is centered on the metagolems/off-tanks who can tank for ages and kill everything else in sight. I don't think it is the healthiest meta either, but to be fair, they went over a year and a half waiting for their turn in the spotlight, and they are getting some pretty substantial nerfs across the board.

This.

Most people just don't know how to differentiate between bruisers and tanks and I'm not sure why.

SEKAI3 votes

{quoted}

This.

Most people just don't know how to differentiate between bruisers and tanks and I'm not sure why.

I keep telling them that you tell tanks apart from bruisers by counting the amount of hard CCs in a champs kit (and the fact they're naturally tanky) but no one listens.

item 3070 item 3070

Kaeblen4 votes

To be fair, the new bruiser items blur the line between tanks and bruisers a great deal.

Angry Monster4 votes

not really, Unless you are magically seeing Sion, Mao, Naut, sej, ect in a role that is not support.

Mecha MaIphite10 votes

Out of all the "tanks" you listed, Malphite is the only actual tank.

Ice51 votes

If you cant see Garen/mundo being actual tanks you've been playing a really different game from most of us mate

Mecha MaIphite8 votes

Garen and mundo are bruisers.

Ice51 votes

You should go back and check their roles they are both Fighter/Tanks those are the 2 categories they are in! Never the less if you cant see them as tanky champs no offense but there is something bad in your eyesight

Mecha MaIphite3 votes

By definition, tanks need good amounts of CC and defensive steroids. Bruisers usually have good damage and sometimes defensive steroids, but usually don't have more than 1 hard CC, if they have any at all.

Ice52 votes

By definition Tanking means being able to sustain damage...non of what you mentioned...your reasoning is fundementaly wrong

HexaDecimel6 votes

I am pretty sure he is referring to how Riot classifies Tanks

redniwediS4 votes

Most people will Probably disagree and even flame me but at least hear me out...

People are allowed to disagree with you. The boards are for discussion, which is best when opposing viewpoints are represented.

The overall community plays ranked "for fun" ranked games are not suppose to be for fun they are suppose to be competetives!

This is a common bit of misunderstanding many people have. Yes there are trolls and people who don't try, but the majority of people who play ranked "for fun" have fun being competitive. Competition is what they do, however why they do it is for fun.

why are low skilled champions so high rewarding

It's mainly because Riot balances around a competitive, teamwork based environment more often than they balance around a solo experience. Low skill champions have clear and easily exploited weaknesses, where as high skill champions have fewer or harder to exploit weaknesses in exchange for that higher skill cap.

You use Darius as an example, and yet how many times was he played where he actually had an impact on the game? Even in the game you mentioned his only defining achievement the entire game was that penta. The rest of the match he was just kind of there. People at that level of play, for the most part at least, know how to exploit his weaknesses.

There is minimal cost to a mistake with a tanky champion you can be 0/5 malphite 30 minions behind in cs and you can still be safe behind turret....because its nearly impossible to get dived (Thanks to the new Turrets)

This is actually a larger issue, and is often brought up in discussions about Teleport. We're expecting to see some changes to the preseason that should lessen this problem, however it's not just keep in mind it's not only a "tanky champion" problem.

I am also very confused in why riot keeps reworking champions with high popularity why rework riven when they could rework champions with so low pick rate like urgot,singed,poppy,yorick thats literally beyond me....

Most reworks like that are because a champion's kit is difficult, or impossible, to balance. Reworks add in more places for editing and allow for said champion to receive more accurate buffs and nerfs to answer their problems. That's why certain champions who do not have these places for editing (Poppy, Urgot, Yorick) are left in a rather weak state compared to other champions of that role.

It's not that they are focusing on high popularity champions, it's just that they can focus on multiple champions at once and the high popularity ones get most of the feedback from the community.

Personally I love tanky metas. The current one in particular has a lot more variety in the champions chosen than the past few metas have had. Assassins can still do their thing, however it's also possible to stop them. Mages are still powerful in their own right, however they cannot burst down every member of your team given enough time for their cooldowns to refresh.

I mean honestly, if your team loses in bot lane you have not lost the match by default. This was the case for a little while, and it was terrible. The current meta is by no means perfect, but it's by far the best one I've seen, and I've played since season 1.

Ice52 votes

Darius has a weakness? please list me one Tanky Crippling Grapping Bruiser and thanks to the new Jaggernaut items now also has decent movement....yea he lacks gap closers but his E can pull 5 people no prob In what universe is Riven considered broken? Tank meta has given people a lot of room for mistakes...where a high skilled game shoudnt....thats what should seperate high elo with low elo....there shoudnt be a balance between high risk with low risk champions thats plain stupid. Overall i disagree with you but thanks for spending time reading

redniwediS4 votes

Darius has a weakness?

Look at how well he did in worlds. Don't just look at the highlights, look at the impact he had each game overall. It was rather low. He can be kited and poked down. The professionals know how to do this, so it's only a matter of time until that knowledge trickles down into the general knowledge base.

In what universe is Riven considered broken?

A champion doesn't have to be broken in order for them to not be balanced. Personal opinions aside Riot does not currently view her as balanced. This doesn't make her op or broken, of course, it just means she has room for a bit of work on her kit.

there shoudnt be a balance between high risk with low risk champions thats plain stupid

Why not? Risk is balanced by how much reward it brings. Low risk/high reward is a problem of course, and a serious one League is dealing with right now, however the base idea of high risk coming with high reward, and low risk coming with reliability instead of reward is a good one.

Athenes Lulu4 votes

Yeah, tank SUPPORT meta is stupid.

/s

SEKAI4 votes

Did you just wake up from a time capsule OP?

Not to mention, the so called "tank meta" was actually about tanks being viable again and not about them being OP, only some of them were.

Ice53 votes

Yea they are OP in a way they are low risk high reward they can build path their way to the big items with cloth armor and ruby crystals while everyone else needs to buy stuff like BF swords and Large rods in order to snowball properly... And thanks to the jaggernaut items they can now deal damage... They are safe picks there is no apparent weakness in getting a tank in the game Winning or losing the lane you will still be able to do your job and for me thats fundementally wrong. Players need to be punished when making a mistake and rewarded when playing correctly but as i mentioned before High risk isnt High reward in this game not anymore... Overall the bigger the amount of mistakes that can be absorbed the easier the game becomes!

SEKAI4 votes

{quoted}

Yea they are OP in a way they are low risk high reward they can build path their way to the big items with cloth armor and ruby crystals while everyone else needs to buy stuff like BF swords and Large rods in order to snowball properly... And thanks to the jaggernaut items they can now deal damage...

You do realise while there are tank items that give damage, there are also damage items that give defenses no?

It's not the tanks' fault if you build pure offense 0 resistance and get blown up by anything that moves.

They have weakness, they are melee and very kitable and most of them have medium to high either resource cost or CD.

Low risk high reward are nonsense like Lee and Yasuo, which has nothing to do with tanks whatsoever.

Ice53 votes

You obviously dont see the point i am making you are either in denial or just ignore most of what i wrote... but let me sum it for you...High risk when played correctly should be MORE rewarding than a low Risk champions Ofc in season 5 thats not the case New towers make champions nearly impossible to dive, (unless you are 8/0 or something) Tanks can build their way up from overall cheap items like cloth armor and ruby crystal. Tanks can now do considerable damage to an ADC,APC,Assasin type players Any team format can turtle ANY game for at least 40 mins. results are simple...Errors are not such a big deal anymore,The only real tactic is team fighting,Toxicity increases

Elipo1 votes

Hey, I was a mid kat (it was a normal game) And in mid game I was 12/1, And I did help my other lanes, I was fed but then that garen (who had died 10 times) hited lvl 6 and I was always the villain, that garen played awfull he died a lot, still didn't let me do nothing in late game and we still lose, do you think thats fair?

And I did buy defensive items, btw, but he dealt true damage to me, while my whole combo just made him tickles

SEKAI2 votes

{quoted}

Hey, I was a mid kat (it was a normal game) And in mid game I was 12/1, And I did help my other lanes, I was fed but then that garen (who had died 10 times) hited lvl 6 and I was always the villain, that garen played awfull he died a lot, still didn't let me do nothing in late game and we still lose, do you think thats fair?

And I did buy defensive items, btw, but he dealt true damage to me, while my whole combo just made him tickles

Garen counters cast type characters with his silence by default, then there is Kat who REALLY needs that ulti to do that damage. It's not entirely unfair to the bone if you look at it.

Lovelle2 votes

{quoted}

Yea they are OP in a way they are low risk high reward they can build path their way to the big items with cloth armor and ruby crystals while everyone else needs to buy stuff like BF swords and Large rods in order to snowball properly... And thanks to the jaggernaut items they can now deal damage... They are safe picks there is no apparent weakness in getting a tank in the game Winning or losing the lane you will still be able to do your job and for me thats fundementally wrong. Players need to be punished when making a mistake and rewarded when playing correctly but as i mentioned before High risk isnt High reward in this game not anymore... Overall the bigger the amount of mistakes that can be absorbed the easier the game becomes!

Most AP casters and/or supports (such as Lulu) can contribute to the game without snowballing and most of them can do it from range.

I see you also like playing Fiora, who right now has far less risk than any of the tanks or bruisers you're complaining about.

The fact that Riot seems to cater to people like you as of late is what's dumbing down the gameplay as a whole.

Ice52 votes

what i do and play has nothing to do with what i am proving here...

The Voids Call3 votes

"safe behind turret"... yeah ain't that a bitch, realistically i'm sad they didn't bring the game back even further where diving anyone under turret was damn near suicide unless you had a well planned escape route.

Ice52 votes

yea thats the thing tower requires skill to perform properly...but at this point of the game i can tower dive level 3 get fb managed to NOT die in the process But my enemy top laner wont lose much because of Tp... Meaning you just made a giant play but the game itself punishes you by putting you in a disatvantage because now you got no flash your lane is pushed since he could instantly TP in lane and freeze it He barely lost any farm and you are now viable to ganks!

Overall best course of action play a farming contest till 15-20 mins of the game where you can team fight for drake and baron. But isnt that just silly? having 1 tactic for each game forced in our throats?

TyroneWatermelon3 votes

The only champion that can towerdive at level 3 without dying is Riven,so get your shit together

Beuhlakor3 votes

I really find it funny that you take as examples "Fiora / Riven / Zed / Yasuo / Vayne / Kalista" etc as "High Skilled champions".

Except for Yasuo, all the champions that you listed are incredibly safe to play.

Fiora, even if she is squishy, can not be itemized against and has a lot of escape / chase potential. She is an incredibly safe champion to play in top lane while bringing at the same time incredible teamfight power in the form of tank-busting power and strong AOE heal. Truth is, her W is the only thing that requires skill.

Zed is BY FAR the safest assassin to play. He mixes strong and safe early game, pushing power (Talon, Kassadin, Fizz and Akali struggles HARD against pushs in early game), multiple escape tools and incredible single target damages. Let's just take an example : Fizz and Talon struggles hard against Oriana because of her harassing with powerful auto-attacks and generally, because of her kit. Zed is not concerned with that : he can last-hit safely with Q and he can quickly pushs thanks to his E without having to use expensive skills (like Fizz E or Talon W). Zed will be hardly forced to go back to base whereas Fizz and Talon will be in huge trouble in early game.

Doing your assassin job as Talon and Akali is hard because you lack escape tools. Doing your job as Zed is fucking easy.

Riven is also kind of a "safe champion" to play in toplane. Her lvl 6 is absolutely deadly, diving a Riven is complicated because of her insane moblity and her scaling is incredibly strong. She roam efficiently and even when behind, her base damages are so damn high that a Riven left unchecked can easily murder your squishies. Yes, she lacks sustain in lane and is built glass-cannon. But her kit allows her to be built this way (try to play a Renekton built glass-cannon : you have huge damages, but the lack of mobility and shield will make you explode in teamfights).

Vayne and Kalista are both probably the strongest duelists ADC in the whole game. They can both kite melee champions very easily (let's not talk about Kalisa's stupid passive) and "dance" around ennemies in teamfights making them incredibly safer than, let's said, Ashe, Miss Fortune, Ezreal, Varus or Caitlyn. This is funny because according to you, the ADCs that I mentionned should be "low skilled champions" because they almost can not make plays at all, but truth is, they require a lot more of skill than Vayne and Kalista because of their HUGE weaknesses.

In conclusion :

You took as examples of "high skilled champions", champions that have some of the LOWEST skill floor (skill floor I said, not skill cap) in the whole game. Except Yasuo.

Ice52 votes

the moment i read vayne as safe to play i stopped reading man....But never the less you are off topick and dont understand the concept of how strong tanks / Strong towers / low snowball enables people to make a ton of mistakes and be forgiven about it...creating a noob friendly game instead of a competitive one...

Beuhlakor2 votes

Haha yes, Vayne IS safe right now.

Back in S2 and even after, Vayne wasn't a safe pick at all because of the huge lane bullies that used to be picked on botlane. Graves used to shit on Vayne, some for Ezreal who had an AS debuff on his W, same for MF etc. All those champions used to keep Vayne in check. Yes, at that time, Vayne was considered a risky pick.

All the lane bullies ADC have been nerfed to the ground. They are nothing but shadow of themselves. Vayne, who used to be one of the less popular ADC with a very average winrate, is now one of the most popular ADC with a stable and quite high winrate AND quite high pickrate. Coincidence ? No.

You know nothing about the game. You play on one of the least competitive server in the world and you are low gold elo. So don't try to talk about competitive game hen you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

WarlockLaw2 votes

Honestly I enjoy the tank meta more than most, the tank meta typically encourages 5v5 teamfights which involve more skill based gameplay then split pushing, sieging or picking. It also better allows for comebacks, I don't want to lose a game just because my Malphite fed 3 kills to their Fiora.

The Assassin meta was the least fun if you don't enjoy assassins. Play anything squishy and you die if they find you. Play a tank and watch them dash/blink/jump away from you after killing your carries. Play am assassin and whoever sees the other first wins. Split push for days

Poke meta was less interactive, just spam spells wave clearing until one person dies to poke then fight 4v5. Zone the enemy team for free objectives.

Ice52 votes

assasin meta was all about capitalazing on mistakes and thats what competitive games should be all about...it certainly had flaws but right now the game is noob friendly and allows players to make a lot of mistakes thanks to new towers lessen snowballing updated teleport etc etc...

WarlockLaw2 votes

It also had a huge emphasis on split pushing, and didn't always involve tp. Imo split pushing should only be in competitive when it's being used with tp

Ice51 votes

in my opinion split pushing shouldnt be a whole game tactic rather than a situational choice in the game but we are getting off topic

WarlockLaw2 votes

My point is if I'm watching an entire game I prefer w/e meta encourages 5v5's and if I'm playing it I prefer w/e meta most readily allows for comebacks.

Ice51 votes

well you want a more noob friendly game and thats okie...its your opinion but ofc that doesnt mean its the right choice for a competitive game to take...

WarlockLaw2 votes

Comebacks are hype and exhilarating, and if you are good you can prevent them. If you want to auto-win because you got 3-5 kills in laning then you want the noon friendly game as low elo players tend to snowball harder because their opponents tend to not know how to play from behind.

Ice52 votes

you still dont understand a thing i am talking about...But let me dumb it down for you... The game is becoming easier so more people can play....therefore buffing champions that require NO skillset and nerfing champions that require a good skill set

A bronze 2 Garen can survive a diamond game no problem.... He sure as well wont be a teams Ace and maybe he will stay behind in farm against a Diamond Riven but he will sure as hell turtle her....

Give the same bronze player a riven/azir/vayne etc etc and he wont be able to do much....he will feed his mind off because he LACKS MECHANICS...In no universe safe picks should be as reliable and as rewarding as they are right now in league and thats the major issue here...

WarlockLaw2 votes

A bronze 2 garen main will not be able to perform sufficiently in lane vs a diamond player, there is more to doing well than a kit. The bronze player would not be able to sufficiently cs, rotate with his team, ward or focus at the level required for a diamond game. All of those are separate from any champions kit

Ice51 votes

If you truly cant see the difference of a low skill player playing Garen and Azir and you think the exact same player can Perform the same way in a high elo game ....You are either too ignorant to admit you are wrong or you are simply Dumb....

WarlockLaw1 votes

You're acting like a low skill player can play a low skill champion and perform decently, even as you phrased it "sure as hell turtle her." This however is not true. No matter the match up a low skill player will lose to a diamond player.

Ice52 votes

Well lets take for instance Garen there is literally nothing you can mess up with him...it takes 0 skill to play him nor any actual mastery in positioning...well if by skill you mean fail clicking your Q and hitting a minion instead or perhaps Spinning in the opposite direction i cant argue there.....

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