Thornmail = still useless

MLDzXnRRR·Dec 15, 2015·91 votes·6,484 views

You removed this item from the map, RIOT...

177 Comments

XonraDec 15, 201519 votes

item 3075 honestly feels bad to buy right now, and I feel like I'm wasting a slot almost when I buy it. At most, I will buy it vs an all AD comp, but that is so rare that it isn't really an issue. Nearly every armor item is better because they either give much better utility or have a lot of health, or both.

When you are getting crit every other shot, if not every shot, then the thornmail passive really doesn't do much compared to what the person with ad is healing, plus crit damage, compared to the return damage which is nearly trivial at all points of the game. At best it is okay with just one person shooting you with little lifesteal, but just 2 people attacking you makes you just die before it matters.

Kuroi86Dec 15, 20152 votes

When you are getting crit every other shot, if not every shot, then the thornmail passive really doesn't do much compared to what the person with ad is healing, plus crit damage, compared to the return damage which is nearly trivial at all points of the game.

Actually, with a proper amount of armor (around 250) you should return a fair amount of damage to said ADC. Say they crit would hit you for 1000 damage. with 250 armor, no amount of penetration will prevent their auto from being cut in half. 500 damage Now with Vampirism and BT you've got 22% life steal. 110 healing. Now throw in Warlords Bloodlust. An additional 75 healing.

Now to calculate Thornmail. 190 magic damage.

Congrats, one auto every 2 seconds will heal you.

However...

Without an additional healing item, you're not going to out heal Thornmail.

If you want to "negate" Thornmail, you've got to build specifically against it, thus lowering your over all DPS.

Edit: Made a fix in my numbers, had it as total armor, not bonus armor. Thanks to The Governer for pointing it out.

RatbertDec 15, 20159 votes

does thornmail deal true damage now?

The GovernerDec 16, 20153 votes

Your maths is off...

212.5 damage is the result of you miscalculating the Thornmail damage based on total armor instead of bonus armor. In terms of bonus armor, before calculating magic resistance, the damage reflected by Thornmail is not even close to 200.

Please stop confusing BONUS armor with TOTAL armor.

(Your calculations for Lifesteal also do not take 250 armor into account. If you have 250 armor, chances are enemy adc cannot critically strike you for more than 1000 damage [with Last Whisper or its consecutive upgrades, and 400 AD, and specific masteries, and Infinity Edge, then maybe it's possible])

MLDzXnRRRDec 15, 201516 votes

I had 300 armor as Yorick and this thing can't even break the BT shield of the enemy ADC.

HoseeDec 15, 20154 votes

Might as well build full tank Kat if you want to say that is bad using Yorick as an example LOL.

---------------- Yorick - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Katarina ----------------- Armor @ Level 1 :_ 25_ - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Armor @ Level 1 : _26.9 _ Armor @ Level 18 : 86.2 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Armor @ Level 18 : 86.4

But wait, there's more! Katarina is also..._ Manaless!_

But wait, there's more! Katarina has a skill that that reduces damage by 15%, and can be used as a gapcloser/escape?!?! Broken! Nerf!

See, if you want to complain about item 3075 , at least complain about it using a champion that should build it, not a champion that's squishier than a squishy midlaner and try to get upvotes from the oh so knowledgeable players on the league boards.

PS : Nice try buddy, I only found one match in your history where you EVER built thornmail, so just because you feed one match and happen to have it, it means it's useless? Don't even complain.

TonyTonyMordecaiDec 15, 20153 votes

You sound like that one Silent Hill movie: it doesn't shut up.

ayNigerianPrinceDec 16, 20153 votes

A very cringe-worthy post, indeed.

ShonjlDec 16, 20153 votes

Gotta admit he had a point though. Only one try using it isn't really excuse to say the item sucks.

YumaS2AstralDec 15, 201512 votes

I agree that Thornmail needs a buff, but it is still viable, just that it is viable only on heavy armor stacking tanks such as Malphite (which actually benefits from this item since he has a permanent armor steroid and he works WELL with armor in general)

XonraDec 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I agree that Thornmail needs a buff, but it is still viable, just that it is viable only on heavy armor stacking tanks such as Malphite (which actually benefits from this item since he has a permanent armor steroid and he works WELL with armor in general)

Yeah but there are better armor items to stack if you are stacking only armor.

item 3742 item 3026 item 3143 item 3025 (no seriously) item 3110

All of the above items work great on Malph, and I'd be all of them over Thornmail right now and if you go 6 items then you would have item 3047 so there ya go, 6 item armor only and you are likely better off than the thornmail, with more utility, and even a bit of ap thrown in with the item 3025

YumaS2AstralDec 15, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but there are better armor items to stack if you are stacking only armor.

(no seriously)

All of the above items work great on Malph, and I'd be all of them over Thornmail right now and if you go 6 items then you would have so there ya go, 6 item armor only and you are likely better off than the thornmail, with more utility, and even a bit of ap thrown in with the

Malphite still works well with Thornmail especially when he is not on range for his Brutal Strikes to slow the enemy's attack speed, or when there is a Yi on the enemy team.

Rammus also works well with it. Besides having an armor steroid and scaling with armor, Rammus has a taunt that forces enemies to attack him and thus take damage from Thornmail.

137434Dec 15, 20153 votes

Taric also isn't bad with it. Armor scaling, gives free armor to allies based on his own armor, and has a heal increasing your effective HP.

TonyTonyMordecaiDec 15, 20154 votes

Frozen Gauntlet doesn't give AP anymore because of the Sheen changes this Season

3ofGot40veDec 15, 20159 votes

Thornmail is a situational item with one purpose, and that's to provide defence vs strong AD Carrys.

Sneakyy XDDec 15, 201563 votes

[{quoted}](name=fishing l3g3nd,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hBdkuhbu,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-12-15T12:44:45.348+0000)

Thornmail is a situational item with one purpose, and that's to provide defence vs strong AD Carrys.

And it doesn't fulfill that purpose

3ofGot40veDec 15, 20152 votes

I just played a game last week, their shen support got thornmail and our jinx could not fight him because she would lose from the thronmail. Its damage stakcs with extra armor, if you didn't know

Critmaster GarenDec 15, 201529 votes

[{quoted}](name=fishing l3g3nd,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hBdkuhbu,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-15T12:51:52.191+0000)

I just played a game last week, their shen support got thornmail and our jinx could not fight him because she would lose from the thronmail. Its damage stakcs with extra armor, if you didn't know

ive had an ashe lifesteal like nobodies business through my 350 armor and thornmail. she had a bloodthirster and mercurial.

the thing is worthless on anyone but 6 item malphite right now. your jinx simply built wrong.

and its not strong enough to help against full on hit/attack speed builds either.

the idea behind the change was not wrong. it would make thornmail as effective against attack speed build as crit builds. the numbers are just far too low on both ends.

plus, it completely lost its value as a rush in lane against champs like tryndamere, since its too weak to do anything on its own due to the armor scaling.

Maximum MordeDec 15, 201518 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hBdkuhbu,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-15T12:54:19.323+0000)

the thing is worthless on anyone but 6 item malphite right now. your jinx simply built wrong.

Rammus.

P.S. I wouldn't even really build it on Malphite. I'd just build some AP and combo kill the ADC instead.

KingWanahakalugiDec 15, 201514 votes

I build Rammus with thornmail almost every time and watch the ADC or AD mid/top kill themselves.

DeusVultDec 16, 20154 votes

Rammus is the only person that it is still even usable on because of how it stacks with his W and his tendency to build a metric shit-ton of armor

KingWanahakalugiDec 16, 20155 votes

Rammus is the only person that can use thornmail as a core item in my opinion, however, it is still a functional item on almost any tank against a 80% to full AD comp which I have seen much more often since the marksman update. I do believe a small buff to thornmail wouldn't be absurd though.

IceohDec 15, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hBdkuhbu,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-15T12:54:19.323+0000)

ive had an ashe lifesteal like nobodies business through my 350 armor and thornmail. she had a bloodthirster and mercurial.

the thing is worthless on anyone but 6 item malphite right now. your jinx simply built wrong.

So a marksman that has what, at least 3-4 completed items, two of which are counters to thornmail, and you think she should still die from AAing you? LOL

It's a supplemental damage source that helps to deter marksman from hitting you. It shouldn't solo the ADC by any means, especially if they have a magic resist item and a large lifesteal item.

Tanks are strong enough atm. They don't need more help. Not to mention thornmail is a toxic item and shouldn't even be in this game anymore.

Critmaster GarenDec 15, 20157 votes

{quoted}

So a marksman that has what, at least 3-4 completed items, two of which are counters to thornmail, and you think she should still die from AAing you? LOL

It's a supplemental damage source that helps to deter marksman from hitting you. It shouldn't solo the ADC by any means, especially if they have a magic resist item and a large lifesteal item.

Tanks are strong enough atm. They don't need more help. Not to mention thornmail is a toxic item and shouldn't even be in this game anymore.

didnt i say that i had 350 armor? why should the adc with 4 items be that much stronger than me with 4 armor items?

i would at least expect such a specialized build to cancel out her lifesteal. it didnt. it wasnt even close.

IceohDec 15, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hBdkuhbu,comment-id=000000000000000000020000,timestamp=2015-12-15T19:38:36.419+0000)

didnt i say that i had 350 armor? why should the adc with 4 items be that much stronger than me with 4 armor items?

i would at least expect such a specialized build to cancel out her lifesteal. it didnt. it wasnt even close.

Out healing one item you have =/ "that much stronger"

Critmaster GarenDec 15, 20157 votes

{quoted}

Out healing one item you have =/ "that much stronger"

outhealing 4 items i have.

again. i had 350. that didnt come from thornmail alone.

LlaniteDec 17, 20151 votes

Because they are supposed to be tank-killer. If you're not massively ahead, they'll blow you up.

Tank>mage>adc>tank

Critmaster GarenDec 17, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Because they are supposed to be tank-killer. If you're not massively ahead, they'll blow you up.

Tank>mage>adc>tank

if something like a tank killer exists, then there is no such thing as a tank. even adc need to take a while to take out a tank. if theyre able to do it too fast, then tanks become pointless.

elon wątrobaDec 17, 20151 votes

If there is no tank killers, we are getting season 2 metagolem, who were unkillable, and could solo kill half of team.

Critmaster GarenDec 17, 20152 votes

{quoted}

If there is no tank killers, we are getting season 2 metagolem, who were unkillable, and could solo kill half of team.

im saying while it shouldnt be impossible, its often too easy. there needs to be a certain effectiveness to defense even against adc. champs like vayne completely devalue defense and make you feel worthless by playing a tank.

you still bring engage and cc. the question is how useful that is in the face of her self peel. the problem is if you dont focus her as a tank, but go for the targets youre strong against, you get ripped apart by the untouched adc. youre directly forced to focus on a champ thats designed to kite and kill you. the same goes for champs like tristana, who might not kill you as fast as vayne, but just knocks you back out of a fight. because they already bring so much objective control and other advantages to the game. 1v1ing shoudlnt also be their strength.

a lot of adc are far too strong while being self reliant. in my opinion its ok for an adc to be strong in fights like twitch or koggles as long as theyre vulnerable on their own. but they should need the protection of their team to be fully effective in a fight.

but going back to thornmail, while having an adc kill himself against the thing on a full armor build is a bit much, it should at least take out his lifesteal with such a specialized build. right now that doesnt work. remember that by building heavily into armor like that youre still vulnerable to magic damage. especially when items like liandries exist.

and while lategame it might be unfair for thornmail to cause an adc to kill himself, it was a necessary safety net if rushed in lane against them. otherwise there would be no defense against the constant auto attack bullying of solo lane adc.

well maybe they could fix that by finally adding protection against ranged auto attacks for melee champs to dorans shield now.

SzunrayDec 15, 20151 votes

He said provide defense, not annihilate.

Tanks whining that item 3075 doesn't delete any carry foolish enough to attack them, is like ADC's whining that their item 3033 doesn't deal 100% of Mundo's health in true damage every auto attack.

LeadpaintchipsDec 16, 20152 votes

What they're complaining about is that building against ADC's isn't working. If I have armor and a thronmail, a ADC shouldn't be able to stand in melee range of my tank, blow me up, and not get below half health. Having a thornmail's doesn't discourage ADC's from attacking you at all. they don't have to check their targets, it doesn't stop them from stealing life back, it doesn't do it's job at all.

I want it to separate the stupid ADC's from the one's who are aware of what they are targeting, and are able to prioritize targets.

I don't want this item core on everyone, I want it as a valid option against a heavy AD team, a Protect the Carry team, and/or a team with derp ADC carries. Right now from what I've seen, it doesn't fill any of those rolls. There are better items to get in all of these situations, and item 3075 isn't strong enough to consider dropping these other items for.

If it's supposed to counter LS, then I like the idea that GW procs on it. Put that instead of magic damage, because that would hurt the LS builds more than damage that is outscaled throughout the match.

SzunrayDec 16, 20152 votes

Well I feel like this entire thread is a load of hyperbole then because there are ways to build against ADC. You have item 3143 as the "Catch All", item 3110 for attack speed stackers and item 3742 for offensive minded tanks. Thornmail definitely has niche uses such as

Being an efficient way to get 100 armor for people who scale with it and
Giving an extra damage boost to champions with taunts. It's not good on everyone the same way that not every mage builds spell vamp or every ADC builds Sheen. It's core in some builds and then basically nowhere else and I don't feel like that is a bad thing.

As far as ADC's standing toe to toe with your tank, that ADC is simply fed or designed to bust tanks. As for being Fed I can't really say much other than when a champion is fed they just do things they're not supposed to do, Like Tahm Kench bursting down your midlaner or Riven soloing your entire team.

SpoofghoulDec 15, 20158 votes

You know..

You could build item 3146 alongside your item 3075 and heal everytime you get attacked xD

for example

Malphite item 3146 item 3075 item 3068 item 3047 item 3065 item 3025

HoseeDec 15, 20151 votes

Holy sht thats genius.

DeathBurstDec 15, 20151 votes

Except it doesn't work. Thornmail doesn't apply spell effects, so no spell vamp. And even less Lifesteal.

SpoofghoulDec 15, 20156 votes

It does work since the Gunblade change. Now the vamp applies to ALL damage dealth

DeathBurstDec 15, 20156 votes

My bad, I'm wrong, you're right. I stand corrected.

SpoofghoulDec 15, 20152 votes

Well the really cool part is that the damage with the last thornmail change scales partly with your armor

which in turn, when you have a gunbldae with it, allows you to regenerate your health by simply standing in a minion wave.

Similar to galio's bulwark, in fact this strategy is really dumb on galio especially xD

Auz the RipperDec 16, 20152 votes

Now the question is, is Thornmail's passive considered AoE or single target?

ayNigerianPrinceDec 16, 20153 votes

I can only assume it would be single target. It's bouncing directly back to the person attacking.

Blade of JusticDec 15, 20157 votes

I still don't know what Thornmail is supposed to counter.

Is it lifesteal? Because lifesteal actually counters Thornmail.

Is it DPS? Because most people just build tank shredding items anyways.

Is it burst? Because you won't get off enough damage per proc to make them feel the error of their ways.

I just don't get it.

JustMyBassCannonDec 15, 20155 votes

Originally, it was built to counter Lifesteal. Because of how it and Lifesteal function--Thornmail calculating the damage return before Armor's damage reduction and Lifesteal calculating the heal after Armor--it actually countered Lifesteal very harshly, almost always automatically negating it and dealing extra damage besides.

With just that one item, a champion with the lowest innate Armor--61 at the time--was capable of reflecting enough damage that a champ would need an absurd amount of Lifesteal or a build with a significant amount of Lifesteal, MR and Armor Pen in order to start healing just barely more than Thornmail dealt.

Then they changed it from 30% of the damage dealt to 15% plus 25% of the wearer's bonus Armor. While this works just fine on tanks that build a ludicrous amount of Armor, it's pretty much worthless to anyone that previously would use it as the defensive offense item it was.

Mecha MaIphiteDec 15, 20152 votes

I wouldn't say it was meant to counter lifesteal as much as it was to negate it. If an enemy got lifesteal first, I could get thornmail to cancel out most of it, and if I got thornmail first, they could build lifesteal to negate the passive.

JustMyBassCannonDec 15, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I wouldn't say it was meant to counter lifesteal as much as it was to negate it. If an enemy got lifesteal first, I could get thornmail to cancel out most of it, and if I got thornmail first, they could build lifesteal to negate the passive.

Except negating Lifesteal is effectively countering it. The entire point of Lifesteal is to heal in combat, and if you negate that heal, their Lifesteal has become countered.

Meanwhile, most people didn't usually pick it up for the sake of the damage return itself. It's alright, but nothing stellar. And if you did get it before they had Lifesteal, they now had to interrupt whatever their build was to get Lifesteal or just not attack you in combat, giving you a psychological shield.