New relic that acts like sivir's spell shield

Oslion·Apr 22, 2018·1 votes·1,438 views

How would you guys feel about a new relic that would work like sivir's spell shield? One with a decent cooldown to prevent spam.

The followup question is why does the sweeper allow for removal of teemo's mushrooms?

As it is, Teemo see's no pro play due in part, to the use of pink wards. It used to be there was a cost associated with countering the traps, now its a free item on a short cooldown and teemo or the team he is on, has no way to deal with it.

30 Comments

Dead flag bluesApr 22, 20183 votes

Fiora Irelia Nocturne Sivir item 3102 item 3814

that's enough

OslionApr 22, 20181 votes

That's quite the response. No argument for or against?

Automated RivenApr 22, 20181 votes

That's an argument against. And it's a Good one.

And he forgot this. Malzahar

OslionApr 22, 20181 votes

So you're saying you wouldn't want an item like sivir's spell shield thats free huh?

Then what about the sweeper affecting teemo's mushrooms?

Automated RivenApr 22, 20181 votes

Sweeper effecting mushrooms is fine. The lastima thing that would be good for balance is in detectable Teemo shrooms. Teemo needs to be changed if that interaction was changed.

OslionApr 22, 20181 votes

How is it fine? Having a free item on a cooldown that negates anyone's skill would be awful but a free item that negates teemo's ult isnt? Where is the counterplay for teemo or his team? What did the other team or player actually sacrifice to have this counter? Virtually nothing.

BrightWîngsApr 22, 20181 votes

you're acting like there shouldn't be any counter play to shrooms do you realize how much damage those things do? it would be fucking mental for them not be effected by a sweeper those things half health just about all squishes with out really doing anything but say hey this looks like an ok spot for a shroom not to mention how much and how often he can place them.

OslionApr 23, 20181 votes

With 800 ability power they do about 800 damage pre-mitigation. Even with max magic pen it's easy to reduce that damage significantly. On top of that, pink wards exist that reveal the mushrooms. If you're team is warding it's super easy to spot teemo trying to mine your jungle and any squishy mindlessly walking through the jungle probably deserves to eat the mushroom.

I see no problem with items revealing the shrooms, other traps included, as long as their is a cost associated with it. A free item on a cooldown with a 10 second run time shouldn't be canceling any champions ability. No other items in the game are given away for free that counter an ability. Example, quicksilver sash is a reusable cc breaker. Would you be ok with that being free? Of course not. Its accepted because it takes an item slot and has a cost associated with it. It does one thing. The sweeper reveals traps, wards and invisible players for 10 seconds on a short cooldown. It has no business removing champion abilities.

ZackTheWaffleManApr 23, 20181 votes

The item 3364 does have a cost associated with it. You can't ward.

OslionApr 23, 20181 votes

It doesnt stop you from buying pink wards and even though you can't ward you gain multiple other advantages. Clearing wards, detecting invisible players and clearing traps. One sweeper can safely get a team any objective and safely move a team through the jungle. For nothing but a cooldown.

Sona PingApr 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

How would you guys feel about a new relic that would work like sivir's spell shield? One with a decent cooldown to prevent spam.

The followup question is why does the sweeper allow for removal of teemo's mushrooms?

I get the feeling that ability on an item means the cooldown would need to be long enough to prevent people from buying it anyway.

The answer to the second question is more concrete. If Teemo gets to spam out invisible traps that do large damage, other champions get to remove some of them.

OslionApr 22, 20181 votes

Sona PingApr 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}

As it is, Teemo see's no pro play due in part, to the use of pink wards. It used to be there was a cost associated with countering the traps, now its a free item on a short cooldown and teemo or the team he is on, has no way to deal with it.

Vi gets the benefit of her ult making her Unstoppable. The large advantage she gets from having that given to her ability can be given because the impact is mitigated by having a long cooldown.

Even if that is a reason why Teemo does not see pro play, the answer is still same. Teemo gets to have that ability and spam out the shrooms as often as he can because sweeper can remove some of them.

As in the first part, cooldowns are a cost, same as using trinket slot, contrary to what you seem to be arguing. In any cases, a sweeper with a cooldown is probably better for Teemo shrooms than the spammable Pink Wards.

{quoted}

How is it fine? Having a free item on a cooldown that negates anyone's skill would be awful but a free item that negates teemo's ult isnt? Where is the counterplay for teemo or his team? What did the other team or player actually sacrifice to have this counter? Virtually nothing.

... Did you seriously bring up the thread topic just to compare it to Teemo Shrooms? Those are not the same. At all.

OslionApr 22, 20181 votes

I did.

I still don't see how a free item with a short cooldown gets to counter any champion's ability. Teemo has it bad enough without the cost be a free cooldown to counter his most iconic ability.

Look at the quicksilver sash. If that was made free people would lose their minds. But it has an investment cost and a cooldown. The sweeper has no investment cost but has a cooldown. It also removes allows the removal of wards. The quicksilver cannot do that. It simply removes 1 cc effect. Using it at random or whenever its up would actually be detrimental to the player. So why is the sweeper can do those things AND negate a champion's skill? Keep in mind it can also detect nidalee's and jhin's traps. Allowing them to be removed as well. It also shows after images of invisible players. Effectively negating that too.

So why is such a powerful item free? Where is the counterplay for the opposing team? Pink wards and oracle elixers had a cost associated with them and painted a target on the users back. Do i buy this to counter X ability or do i buy my next item? The sweeper removes that decision and nullifies any and all counter play.

It should not reveal traps of any kind and should be taken for its intended purpose of counter ward play.

Sona PingApr 22, 20181 votes

"I still don't see how a free item with a short cooldown gets to counter any champion's ability."

Because there is a massive, huge, glaring and gargantuan difference between the ability to counter a charge of a specific, low CD, spammable, invisible ability that can hold multiple charges and the ability to completely negate ANY ability... no matter how long the CD no matter how powerful no matter how dependent the champion is on it.

This... this does not even need to be explained. I should not have to.

"It should not reveal traps of any kind and should be taken for its intended purpose of counter ward play."

No, it is intended to do that, including Teemo's damaging, invisible, spammable, wards he gets to break the ward cap with.

You can't just decide on your own that something not intended to do a thing it's specifically designed to do so you can be aghast at the violation.

OslionApr 23, 20181 votes

So what is the counterplay for the opposing team? What was the actual investment? The loss of some wards to gain the ability to remove both wards, traps, and reveal invisibile players while still being able to purchase pink wards to contribute is considered equal to canceling out a giant chunk of a champion?

Why can't players simply buy pink wards? Why not bring back the oracles? Why is a free item able to cancel abilities while have absolutely no counter play?

Sona PingApr 23, 20181 votes

The counterplay IS the sweeper, it's the counter to the invisible counter. And how wouldn't Oracles be worse for shrooms than the counterplay you are complaining about for existing?

The only real point is that still, the glaringly obvious issue that you are avoiding is that the comparison is not appropriate and it is untenable to say otherwise. Abilities are not identical in use or in impact and they are not the same amount of a champion's power.

This is an Apples-to-a-Watermelon comparison, they are not equally affected if you remove a single one. Teemo can spam out a dozen of those things level 1 with no CDR at a potential of 2400(+600%AP) invisible damage on the field, assuming they only hit one thing while Vi does 150(+140%BonusAD) on a two minute+ cooldown yet you are trying to portray that blocking all of Vi's ability is just the same as removing 1/12th of Teemo's, if you can while he's smacking you with auto-attacks.

OslionApr 23, 20181 votes

With oracles there was a decision to make regarding the purchase and the opposing team could kill you removing the effect. The sweeper has no options for the opposing team. A lvl 1 mushroom is 200 damage +50% ap. Minor increases in MR reduce that damage drastically. The mushrooms can also be revealed by pink wards. At lvl 6 those mushrooms do at most 250 damage before MR and there will simply not be 12 mushrooms anywhere on the field.

Playing Teemo feels terrible with the sweeper easily removing his mushrooms. And as the game scales into late his usefulness drops even further off.

Sona PingApr 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

With oracles there was a decision to make regarding the purchase and the opposing team could kill you removing the effect. The sweeper has no options for the opposing team. A lvl 1 mushroom is 200 damage +50% ap. Minor increases in MR reduce that damage drastically. The mushrooms can also be revealed by pink wards. At lvl 6 those mushrooms do at most 250 damage before MR and there will simply not be 12 mushrooms anywhere on the field.

Playing Teemo feels terrible with the sweeper easily removing his mushrooms. And as the game scales into late his usefulness drops even further off.

Audible sigh, you are omitting details ("potential"), picking at minutiae, and getting things wrong (how Oracles works) to dodge addressing the issue: Your accusation of a double standard. But never mind any of that. Never mind the numbers. Never mind your non-argument about Oracles. Never even mind that it's Teemo, where if I was forced to make my champ picks and play top while never using ult, he would be one of them.

Pick whatever you want: 12 shrooms, 10 shrooms, 8 shrooms, 20 Shrooms, it doesn't matter.

The undeniable fact is that revealing the ability to potentially allow removing 12% of an ability's effect is not the same as instantly blocking 100% of it. And that set back can be fixed in a maximum 30 seconds.

OslionApr 23, 20181 votes

It's isnt just "12%". One sweeper can find and remove multiple shrooms. Easily and for free. I don't understand why you're saying non-argument. Oracles was a long duration(multiple minutes) buff that granted true-sight. On death it was removed. It Cost 500g I think it was. I understand perfectly well that the sweeper replaced oracles. The fact remains that this is a FREE item with no counter play. You do not lose it when you die. It cannot be canceled by another player and it removes multiple champions abilities, including Teemo's mushroom from play.

I wouldn't mind seeing a change to the mushrooms to balance them while making them immune to the sweeper. Limit the number he can have further. Or add an active item with a gold cost to it while removing the sweepers ability to see traps.

Regardless, a free item that cannot be countered shouldn't be cancelling any champions abilities.

Critmaster GarenApr 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

As it is, Teemo see's no pro play due in part

no one wants to see him have any play, except for teemo mains. his kit is toxic trash.

personally, i just dodge the few games someone picks teemo. win or lose doesnt matter. playing against him just isnt fun. its 3 lp, but better than playing a stressful game for 40 minutes. and it usually is 40 minutes, because the rat tends to drag out games.

OslionApr 23, 20181 votes

Why? A bit of MR in any role and you drastically reduce his damage output. buy some pink wards and gain sight control over an area denying his mushrooms. Currently you can get a free item and just remove them as well. He is also easily countered so I don't understand why you'd dodge.

Critmaster GarenApr 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Why?

did i fucking stutter? because the game isnt fun when teemo is in it. it doesnt matter that you can beat him. its still going to be stressful, because his entire purpose is going to be as anoying as humanly possible.

and a lot of people who play him at decent mmr are really good at being anoying with him. why would anyone want to deal with a champion who sucks the fun out of even a winning game?

OslionApr 23, 20181 votes

I personally think Illoai, Xayah and Yasuo (as examples) destroy the fun in games. I never enjoy a game with any of them in it. Lots of champions suck fun out of the game when played properly.

Critmaster GarenApr 23, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I personally think Illoai, Xayah and Yasuo (as examples) destroy the fun in games. I never enjoy a game with any of them in it. Lots of champions suck fun out of the game when played properly.

no. its not even close. shaco and teemo are special cases when it comes to ruining games. at least shaco falls off and is only a giant pain in the ass early game.

teemo scales. he starts out as a lane bully and just gets worse.

OslionApr 23, 20181 votes

Teemo get's abused in lane by basically any bruiser. They build a Spectre's cowl and then just go about business as usual. Teemo might be able to prevent one cs with his blind but thats about it. He doesnt take well to abuse unless he is going for a bruiser build as well. If he does that his damage drops off significantly. Assassin's hit their early game power spike and just blow him up. Prime example being Akali. Teemo gets to win the harrass until 6. Then one misstep and she annhilates him.

Illaoi for example does tremendous damage while being tanky as hell. Her sustain is incredible. Sion just shields through the AA dot and further ignores it through mr. Maokai just heals through it and abuses him. These are just a few examples.

Every champion has effective counters in lane and ones that don't have build options to reduce his damage output. The rest is just skill.

None of this changes that it is ridiculous that a free item on a short cooldown gets to negate an ability. The sweeper shouldn't detect the mushrooms. Adding secondary abilities to existing items that work the duskblade's or creating new items with a similar passive gives the option for counterplay by creating a choice for the opposing players. Are the mushrooms high enough priority that you need to adjust your build to counter them? If so, then you buy item X and off you go. At the least you had to make a choice and an investment. Not just take a free pass with the sweeper.

ΑρχιδάκιApr 22, 20181 votes

I would feel more intrigued to a shield breaker item.

RatpieApr 22, 20181 votes

Yup, that is what we need. One more item that blocks abilities....Rito may go for this though, they do hate mages.

No for real though. There are already far too many shields/escapes/blocks/life steal in this game. If you get hit, then die or back off and limp back to base. There are already far too many mobile burst champs that can dive you under tower or past your front line, and still can get out, we do not need another item that would be thoroughly abused especially since this would be very uneven as it will affect AD champs much less than AP.

I would be more interested in an item that just blocked the first AA attack from someone as at least then you have 2 seconds to respond before you get killed, but even then, it will be abused.

BrightWîngsApr 22, 20181 votes

The followup question is why does the sweeper allow for removal of teemo's mushrooms?

because It would be broken if there was no way of removing them. When Teemo is in the game it kinda forces everyone to get a sweeper meaning the only people who can ward is the support.

OslionApr 23, 20181 votes

Anyone can still buy pink wards and just one of them can reveal and allow clearance of half the jungle, not to mention revealing wards and invisible players along the way.

What's wrong with people having to pay to counter trap abilities like Teemo's?