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Ahri and Nidalee are NOT balanced

Aengy··13 votes·1,439 views

Ahri was fine before DFG was removed, it was possible to opt out of building dfg and still do well. Giving her a movement boost, more damage, a faster targeting system for W, was certainly NOT okay. She currently has a 57.68% winrate, and has everything a champion wants in the current meta - mobility, sustain, good scaling, and TRUE damage to top it all off. Ahri is an extremely forgiving champion to play, and if she builds Rylais she just becomes even more a nuisance to deal with. Finally, she has no meaningful weaknesses.

Nidalee was already on the strong side before the pretty random addition (to me) for her to now have the ability to mark jungle creeps as hunted. She already does just as much damage from before the rework, albeit at a slightly higher risk.

TLDR: Stop giving champions that already have a strong kit even more just because it looks cool. There are a huge amount of champions that need that attention, Ahri and Nidalee were the farthest you could get from that.

15 Comments

Kitten of Evil5 votes

Ahri's Q is the most egregious example of this. If you want to have a speed boost on it, fine! Why not require her to, I dunno, actually hit an enemy champion (hell, even an enemy minion) to gain the speed boost? Then she can't use it to run across the map or to escape, unless she makes sure to hit you/minions on the way. It's not like Ahri's really suffering from a lack of escapes already.

Ahri with no boots has 330 MS. She tosses out Q, and now she has 515 (which decays, but that's still absurd) I'm glad they're making it cost more mana, like the utility spell it is.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Why not require her to, I dunno, actually hit an enemy champion (hell, even an enemy minion) to gain the speed boost?

This would defeat the purpose of the booster. Ahri's core play pattern usually involves throwing Q and then running away. If she got a boost of movement speed when it hit, we would then find her getting faster when she's already 1000 range from the target. The MS boost is much more impactful on cast, where she will often be targeted with return fire.

Now, certainly Ahri is overtuned on live, but that doesn't mean you make her mechanics clunky. It means you tune her to be balanced with the new mechanics. I suspect Riot hasn't done enough in 5.3, but I've been wrong before, and certainly the changes they are making will help.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

Okay, that's how her core play pattern works now, but it's also quite uninteractive. According to the forums, her core playstyle used to be DFG assassin, and Riot changed that.

Where core play patterns are the problem, they can be fixed. Keep in mind the Q change was JUST added, so it can't be core to her playstyle yet. It's a bonus MS boost over what she had before. If they make it more conditional, she has still gained a very widely-useful (and certainly just as useful in teamfights) utility feature.

Basically, why should she be rewarded for casting her Q if it completely misses? Kite mages should be rewarded for kiting, not for missing. You hit the enemy and you get a movement boost so you can continue to kite. You miss the enemy and minions? Well you should have aimed better. Hell, even Kalista has only one way to proc her passive without hitting targets, and that's her rather expensive, non-piercing, narrow Q.

SmokingPuffin1 votes

Throwing Q, then kiting, is a core Ahri play pattern. Has been true since release, long before anyone discovered that DFG was a broken item on her.

If you want to make an MS boost mechanic on Ahri, it makes the most sense on Q cast, because that flows smoothly with her core play patterns. If that results in her being too strong, then you nerf either the MS boost size, or nerf other areas. You don't take a good feeling mechanic and make it feel clunky.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

It's just so unusual compared to literally every other kiting champion in the game. I already mentioned Kalista, who has to be hitting things to kite reliably. Same with Sivir -- she gets an MS boost only if she hits an enemy champion, and her Q is often used much as Ahri's Q. Same with Ashe, who can't kite at all unless she hits you with either Q or W. Draven's kiting abilities, such as they are, are the same! He's rewarded with a free refresh of his MS boost as long as he catches an axe.

Caezium4 votes

They had to give Ahri compensation for the MS boost DFG gave.

Gank in Progress2 votes

i find it more absurd that her W is on a 3 sec cooldown with a reset on both her ranged Q and AGAIN when she jumps on you. thats unlimited jumps in cougar form?!!

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quality PIayer,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gyxA9481,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-02-10T05:01:23.650+0000)

i find it more absurd that her W is on a 3 sec cooldown with a reset on both her ranged Q and AGAIN when she jumps on you. thats unlimited jumps in cougar form?!!

It only resets when he pounces to a hunted target.

Also, Nidalee is a mediocre jungler at best for the following reasons:

-Unlike champions like Jarvan or Lee Sin, Nidalee can't donate kills/resources to teammates, and must take them for herself to be relevant in the late-ish game. -Nidalee cannot engage if she misses a spear (spears have the width of a toothpick and the projectile speed of a grandma in a wheelchair) and the spears themselves don't hurt at all unless they're thrown at max range, in which case, if you get hit, you deserve the execution that's coming. -If Nidalee misses a spear, the gank is a failure. -NIdalee has zero CC whatsoever -Nidalee is squishy -The jungler is usually a tank, and picking Nidalee as a jungler forces your team to take a less optimal laner.

And don't tell me that you're complaining about lane Nidalee, who wasn't actually buffed at all.

Gank in Progress1 votes

{quoted}

It only resets when he pounces to a hunted target.

Also, Nidalee is a mediocre jungler at best for the following reasons:

-Unlike champions like Jarvan or Lee Sin, Nidalee can't donate kills/resources to teammates, and must take them for herself to be relevant in the late-ish game. -Nidalee cannot engage if she misses a spear (spears have the width of a toothpick and the projectile speed of a grandma in a wheelchair) and the spears themselves don't hurt at all unless they're thrown at max range, in which case, if you get hit, you deserve the execution that's coming. -If Nidalee misses a spear, the gank is a failure. -NIdalee has zero CC whatsoever -Nidalee is squishy -The jungler is usually a tank, and picking Nidalee as a jungler forces your team to take a less optimal laner.

And don't tell me that you're complaining about lane Nidalee, who wasn't actually buffed at all.

I always found her too strong. but in the new jungle its a big joke that she is one of the best duelists plus one of the most mobile characters out there. we dont need a lee sin no2 in the jungle.

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Quality PIayer,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gyxA9481,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2015-02-10T23:14:46.257+0000)

I always found her too strong. but in the new jungle its a big joke that she is one of the best duelists plus one of the most mobile characters out there. we dont need a lee sin no2 in the jungle.

While Nidalee is a good duelist, she isn't as capable of snowballing her lanes like a champion such as Jarvan or Lee Sin (who are picked partially because they don't need to take the kills and can snowball lanes easier)

FebruAhri2 votes

they could have just replaced the damage amp on charm with a speed boost when you do damage to a charmed target instead

Remlap12231 votes

I don't think there's anything wrong with giving a champion something extra if they're doing alright as long as it doesn't overload the current role they're intended to be in. That being said, there's nothing Riot could have done to make jungle Nidalee not toxic. Giving a root to a ranged champion in the jungle was a HORRIBLE idea.

Goosetard2 votes

It never even occurred to me that this would help until I read your post several times and thought about it... no wonder her clear is so good. She barely has to take damage from red or blue buff.

Kitten of Evil2 votes

Kayle, Karthus, and Malzahar all wish they could have specially-targeted jungle buffs. Strategic diversity!

Goosetard1 votes

I always thought that Ahri's ult was a good example of a useful ability with a meaningful strategic tradeoff... as her primary defensive tool post-6, using it offensively left her vulnerable and using it defensively reduced her offensive presence in lane.

The new Q completely undermines that by giving her a new offensive/defensive mechanic on a short cd. Why? That's an obvious problem on paper after even two seconds of consideration.

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