Why dont they just add a check box for the second role that is "no second role" and when they select that a message pops up saying, in effect, because you've selected a single role your matchmaking times may be slower.
If someone is so committed to a single role, then they should be willing to wait an extra 30s-1m to play it.
Z Statistic74 votesNo, because this increases queue times on a server widescale. The whole reason Riot made two picks mandatory is to reduce queue times to an acceptable level. Combinatorics scale MASSIVELY quickly. forcing two roles does not increase your queue time by 30-60 seconds unless your average queue time to begin with was near instantaneous for ALL roles.
Allowing only one selection most likely increased average wait time to between 20 and 30 minutes per queue.
Alphadef24 votesSo why did teambuilder work? Everyone only picked one role, should have taken hours to find a game right?
Z Statistic19 votesI hypothesize for a few reasons:
HighH124 votesPeople actually waited the entire time in Teambuilder? I just Alt+tabbed and watched videos/did other things while a team got put together
Alphadef5 votesMy point is I don't see how having the option only pick 1 lane/role could possibly take longer than Teambuilder did. Especially since some people WILL queue for multiple roles, so even if selecting 1 is an option I should theoretically be faster regardless.
LeprechaunJinx5 votesBecause, from my understanding, it's a compounding issue. If you alone only picked 1 lane/role then the impact would be inconsequential, but by allowing players to pick only 1 if they so desired there would be a high imbalance of roles.
It's like how in Teambuilder you could go 5-7 minutes just looking for someone to play anyone in jungle or support (or whatever the unpopular role at the time was).
Titanium702 votesIt's not about the time comared to Teambuilder! It's about the time compared to Draft! This System will Replace RankedQ thats why it needs to be fast and reliable.
Choosing only one position would create riddiculous Q Times. League has a lack of Duo-Laners, and this addressed quiet well.
Alphadef3 votesIf it's only replacing Draft, that would be fine. But they also insist on removing teambuilder.
Dehorn2 votesteam builder also paired teams together with massive skill gaps between them to compensate. i had a recent team builder game with: gold 5 (me), gold 3, gold 5, silver 3, silver 3 vs enemy team: plat 1, plat 1, plat 3, gold 3, gold 5
youre bronze 1 (gl getting silver!), how would you like to get into your promos and face a team of gold 1-3's? you'd probably be pissed.
Vistha Kai3 votesTeam Builder was independent of ranked queue.
For example the moment I hit level 30 I played ranked nearly exclusively, being in Plat for two years. The moment I'd decide to play a normal I'd get matched with people on skill level of Bronze.
You can't use that as an argument.
Dehorn1 votesof course i can. team builder used your elo for matchmaking just like ranked and blind pick. they are not independent. they used the exact same elo system. the only difference was team builder would expand the range of excepted elo to keep queue times low as possible.
Vistha Kai2 votesI'll call that a steaming pile of bovine excrements.
First of all both normal queues and ranked queues have their own MMR for each player. Secondly, both blind pick and draft pick have their own separate MMR. Thirdly, every map has it's own separate MMR. (which is irrelevant here, but I thought you'd want to know)
Now to the main event.
Not only Teambuilder had it's very own separate MMR, it also accounted for each and every single individual champion you played separately. Moreso, it was also giving you "leg-up" for your first few games.
Of course the system can widen the ELO range for matchmaking purposes, but ONLY within the same queue.
Should there be a situation where there is only one person in solo ranked Plat and it's Plat 3 on the server they could be matched with Diamond or Gold from solo ranked, but ONLY from solo ranked.
It will never use team ranked or normal MMR to find player. NEVER.
FuntaC4 votesActually, no, the timing of matchmaking would be more hindered by multiple team roles. The absolute fastest matchmaking would occur with a player scoring system (like mmr) and a single role. Why? Because the players could then be placed into a queue by rank/rating, and rapidly combined with a standardized team composition according to that rank (or rank range even). You can simulate this by using a deck of poker cards. Separate the cards by suit. The card values equate to a player rank/rating. Line up the cards by value and line up the suits. You can scoop all the cards of the same value in each suit in one motion.
Z Statistic7 votesCome up with a deck of cards that has roughly 3k suits and perform the same algorithm. It's significantly harder. While it's useful to perform algorithms on small systems to see if it works at all, large systems behave differently than small systems. Thus, you have to test it on sufficiently large systems, not small ones.
Do also keep in mind that there can be as much as a 100 mmr spread within a single tier of a division, which is enough to skew what could be naively said as a fair match to have as much as 3:2 odds. And with every mmr you shave off to make the variation smaller in skill, you make the population smaller, which can disproportionately affect queue times. One of Riot's challenges is to balance queue times with consistency in game experience. Even though it's unlikely, waiting 20 minutes for a game where you expect 99.7% of the games to be even matched is fine, but if you think that the game was a stomp (whether it really was or not), waiting so long only to get a shitty game is probably going to make you quit.
Let's not get started about trolls ruining games either. While Riot doesn't condone trolls at all, building a queue system without taking into account the potential for assholes is stupid.
FuntaC3 votesTo verify; I just spent five minutes writing a short program that creates one hundred million players with an id number. It assigns a random rating and two random roles to each. It puts each player into a queue by those roles. It creates ten million matches, which was a class object. It finishes that in less than two seconds. Let's not make it sound more complex than it is.
Z Statistic8 votesSaying you've done something isn't verification. What you have done is created a matrix that has 10^8 rows and 4 columns and then found 10^7 combinations of 10 1x4 vectors from that matrix. That is computationally intense depending on what language you use and your processor, but not difficult.
What matters is that the matching is within a winrate tolerance for an acceptable proportion of the population.
But for the record, I booted up R to see how long it would take to generate a string that was 10^8 long. Granted, R does not have the best for-loop efficiency, but it's passable. It took roughly 20 seconds on my i7 to generate only 10^6. So my estimation is that simply generating the 100 million IDs for each player would take about 5 and a half hours.
here's my R code if you're interested: row=c()
for (i in 1:10^6){ row=c(row,i) }
So bottom line, I'm fairly confident that you're at the very least vastly under-exaggerating on the internet to try to win an argument.
disregardable24 votesThey said it'd slow down queues. Most people would rather choose the exact role they want than one or the other.
HighH15 votesExactly. So why take away TB,Riot
manbearswine7 votes[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gho8Pn0A,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-01-14T23:57:19.958+0000)
They said it'd slow down queues. Most people would rather choose the exact role they want than one or the other.
I think you are underestimating just by how much it will slow down ques.
3Power4 votesTB never took more than 5 minutes to start a game in. I think what happens is that all these platinum ranked guys don't play it, so they never find anyone at their level, so they never play it. Then other players heard them whining about it and then they never played it.
If riot just dumped blind pick when TB came out you wouldn't have had a problem in the first place.
SonicSalem2 votesTB never took more than 5 minutes to start a game in. I think what happens is that all these platinum ranked guys don't play it, so they never find anyone at their level, so they never play it. Then other players heard them whining about it and then they never played it.
If riot just dumped blind pick when TB came out you wouldn't have had a problem in the first place.
^This, & I don't understand why you were downvoted when all you were saying is completely true.
Shroom Junkie4 votes[{quoted}](name=Very Toxic Jinx,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gho8Pn0A,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-01-14T23:57:19.958+0000)
They said it'd slow down queues. Most people would rather choose the exact role they want than one or the other.
I'm fine with fill for all I care but there are others that are only good at one role. I mean, you main Jinx, so you're best at her, right? And although you can probably do other roles fairly well, your best is Jinx, am I wrong? So, if you're playing Ranked, you'd rather play Jinx or some kind of ADC to rank up but, if ADC is a popular role, you might get stuck in your secondary most of the time.
So if you want a specific role, then why can't you just wait longer? It'll only affect those with 2 roles by maybe 5-ish seconds at most and I'm fine with that.
Shadow Gilgamesh10 votesno kidding, I've enjoyed playing a lot of top lane thanks to team builder, even though that often meant waiting longer.
How often do you think it's gonna give me top if I HAVE to pick a second role and I pick jungle or support because I'm ass mid and don't like ADCing? my guess is I'm gonna get a lot more time as Taric and Morgana in the bot lane and a lot less time playing Wukong and Malph up top thanks to no one wants to support (and to a lesser extent, jungle is on the low end of players too)
PDE5 Inhibitors14 votesExactly the problem with their new game mode. But they don't care...just shove it down everyone's throat. They also completely took away an important part of the game. Say you're ass mid, but you can play one champ really well. You normally que up and say you pref top or what not. But, their mid laner picks a champ that your champ completely shits on. Well, you aren't even able to switch and go mid now.
If I wanted to play teambuilder, I would have played teambuilder.
If I wanted to play ranked 5s, I would have played ranked 5s.
I wanted to play SoloQ. They took away that option from everyone that wanted to play it.
There's so much stuff in this game they can be fixing...I don't know why they have to play around with stuff like this.
Secret Butt Fun8 votes[{quoted}](name=PDE5 Inhibitors,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=gho8Pn0A,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2016-01-15T00:49:46.242+0000)
Exactly the problem with their new game mode. But they don't care...just shove it down everyone's throat. They also completely took away an important part of the game. Say you're ass mid, but you can play one champ really well. You normally que up and say you pref top or what not. But, their mid laner picks a champ that your champ completely shits on. Well, you aren't even able to switch and go mid now.
If I wanted to play teambuilder, I would have played teambuilder.
If I wanted to play ranked 5s, I would have played ranked 5s.
I wanted to play SoloQ. They took away that option from everyone that wanted to play it.
There's so much stuff in this game they can be fixing...I don't know why they have to play around with stuff like this.
Just ask your mid laner if you can switch. Done.
Orangutantrum3 votesYou'll probably still be playing your primary role more than your secondary. Don't forget that everyone on the team has to have a secondary, not just you (kind of the whole reason the OP's idea isn't a good one. )
A little math just in case you don't believe me...
Imagine literally everyone picks top as their primary position. This means that, for each team created, one in five players gets their picked role while the others have to fill other roles. Even in such an outrageous circumstance, you still get your primary role 20% of the time. Fortunately, not literally everyone picks top.
manbearswine7 votesBecause it won't be 30s-1m. The system simply won't work with such a penalty,the penalty would have to be something A LOT more meaningful.
It would probably start at 5mins,averaging at 15 mins. *naturally if it's one of the less contested roles,it may not be a problem,but if you want to select "mid only" expect it to add 10 minutes to your que time.
Raiku Kawisa4 votesYup, because there is now a 50-50 chance that I'm going to be playing with a hanicap every single game now, I'm a jungle main. I spead all of my time in the jungle. Wasn't an issue before, but now im fucked.
Tis a nice day2 votesHow are you fucked?
Raiku Kawisa2 votesBecause I'm not the most consistant player when I am getting my role (its been better as I've played through the preseason, but it hasn't been in ranked where people actually care about winning)
I win about 55% of the games I play when I jungle. (im just ballparking these numbers, i dont actually know...) In other roles? Probably 30%~40% and most of that is because my team carried my ass.
So once I start ranked, and assuming the numbers i used are slightly true I'm looking at 60% of my games being losses and 40% wins. Which means I drop rank like a rock. Will I still try? Sure, for a few weeks at least, and if I'm wrong, I'll be pleased, but if not I'll just have to drop Ranked and Draft and stick to Blind only. And even then its a tossup.
Tis a nice day2 votesHmm, I see. The No Second Role option does sort of make sense that way.
Raiku Kawisa2 votesI've mained jungle for 2 to 3 years now and it hasn't been an issue. But if Champ Select stays the way it is. Anyone who hardcore mains one role is going to be fucked. Might as well clear my rank history all together and start over because I dont play ranked as top or support. If I did, it was because I was last pick and during that game I would play as safe as possible, not feed, make sure i showed up to teamfights and pray that my team didn't suck.
Myozthirirn2 votesYou dont play as top or supp rigth? That lets you with Jungle/Adc or Jungle/mid Chose one of those and learn to play one more champion Its that easy, it will turn you from one trick pony into a glorious TWO trick pony
SonicSalem1 votesYou dont play as top or supp rigth? That lets you with Jungle/Adc or Jungle/mid Chose one of those and learn to play one more champion Its that easy, it will turn you from one trick pony into a glorious TWO trick pony
The problem is it's not just about people who can "only play one role" (though those people have been screwed over by the removing of TeamBuilder). I can easily play two roles very well (Mid & Support), & I can be a decent ADC & Top. Knowing how to play two roles is not the point, the whole point of TeamBuilder is that if I wanted to play Mid, & only wanted Mid, I could be guaranteed to get that role. If I only had time for one match in a night & I just wanted to play Mid, I'd get that role in TeamBuilder, now I'm stuck playing blind pick where I have to risk on the speed of the chat load to get the one role I want, until blind pick too is taken away, & then I'm not sure what I'll be doing, probably a lot of ARAM.
PiVoRx4 votesI got another solution but it needs you to find a duo partner. You pick your main role and role of your partner and your partner does the same, this way both of you always got your role either way.
Maximum Morde2 votesI got another solution but it needs you to find a duo partner. You pick your main role and role of your partner and your partner does the same, this way both of you always got your role either way.
Doesn't work. There have to be one more roles picked by your team than you have players before it will let you queue. If you try to queue as top/mid mid/top duo, it won't even let you queue until someone changes one of their selections.
Lazypeon1003 votesIt effectively slows down the queue times for everyone.
Kat is mai waifu2 votesif you main mid or adc and only want those roles, then you're pretty boned. but if you main top, you'll get it 99% of the time as it is the least wanted role behind support.
i don't see the issue here. learn to play multiple roles to an acceptable level, find 4 friends, or go play a new game
Gated D Latch9 votesActually the most played role is top
LaughingStapler2 votesPeople should learn at least 2 roles and having the option to play only one role would lead to even more inflated ratings for one-trick ponies.
SonicSalem2 votesPeople should learn at least 2 roles and having the option to play only one role would lead to even more inflated ratings for one-trick ponies.
I can easily play two roles very well (Mid & Support), & I can be a decent ADC & Top. Knowing how to play two roles it not the point, the whole point of TeamBuilder is that if I wanted to play Mid, & only wanted Mid, I could be guaranteed to get that role. Now I'm stuck playing blind pick where I have to risk on the speed of the chat load to get the one role I want, until blind pick too is taken away, & then I'm not sure what I'll be doing, probably a lot of ARAM.
Dar Raksada2 votesPeople should learn at least 2 roles and having the option to play only one role would lead to even more inflated ratings for one-trick ponies.
The current systrm also inflates their ratings, as it does for two'trick mares. Meanwhile, jacks of all trades get shafted compared to the old system. I disagree with the op. But this system has no place in ranked if you care about inflation.
Denimist2 votesjust enter with a duo partner,if you want to play adc/ mid one will choose mid/adc and the other will choose adc/mid. either way you will both get the roles you wanted.
ZLbSwAR23I2 votesWhy dont they just add a check box for the second role that is "no second role" and when they select that a message pops up saying, in effect, because you've selected a single role your matchmaking times may be slower.
If someone is so committed to a single role,** then they should be willing to wait an extra 30s-1m to play it.**
Oh you...
Get past platinum and you'll be waiting an extra half an hour.
Soulsie2 votesVery simple solution to "people dont want to play two roles"
Pick mid.
Everyone wants mid.
Felin32 votesThey don't, I tried this as a support main and I got mid twice out of three games.
alfavhunter2 votesI never noticed long Q times... But then I main support so...
Llanite2 votesIt will massively increase queue time, in long term. I introduce you Schelling segregation.
Step 1: People who want to play 1 role queue only 1 role. Queue time increases slightly (1-2 mins) Step 2: People realizes it takes less effort to move up the ladder if they play just one role, at the expense of slight increase in queue time (2-3 mins) Step 3: Everyone who enjoys one role slightly less than the other will eventually make the switch, and play only one role. They will enjoy their other role in blindpick. Queue time increases significantly (5-10 mins) Step 4: Everyone tells their friends and mother that playing only one role is 'the right way' to play ranked. Queue time increases significantly (10-15 mins) Step 5: We have a new generation of players who refuse to play more than one role. Step 6: Server-wide 20-30 min queue time on average.
