Magus enchant was a problem because it only worked on specific champions

SlytherinUmbreon·Jun 13, 2015·122 votes·6,683 views

So we replaced it with an even more specific item.

154 Comments

AnonagonJun 13, 201559 votes

Except Magus was an incredibly general item that every AP jungler could use efficiently. The only problem is that it lacked mana sustain functionality, which could easily have been added while reducing the AP and CDR a bit as compensation

You are right about Runeglaive being unnecessarily specific though. In fact, I can't think of a single champion who wouldn't sell the thing lategame. Its horribly slot-inefficient. Its weaker than Lich Bane, so mage-assassins like Nidalee and Diana aren't helped, since they would rather have the higher single target damage and AP of Lich Bane than Runeglaive's AoE proc. And most other AP champions simply won't take the time out of their rotation to try and AA the enemy lategame - they'd much rather have an item with much more AP. Past the early game, Runeglaive is really only good on champions who are a) going to AA, and b) would rather have AoE than single target burst, which is... no one.

SlytherinUmbreonJun 13, 20159 votes

That's what i meant though -3- For AP Champions, viability wasn't decided by whether or not the champion could jungle, but instead based on whether or not they could survive the mana gating.

YorukinJun 13, 20151 votes

Karma, AP Maokai, Galio (it could happen), and magic bruiser Diana all qualify. Karma does a lot of poke, but she needs to be in AA range to use her W anyway. Fighters, even AP ones, work well when they can hit several people at once, which is part of why IBG is popular. And Maokai and Galio both thrive in teamfights, where their ults are most effective, and their cooldowns are just low enough for the mana restore to keep them going.

That being said, the numbers on Runeglaive do need to go up a bit. At the very least, the AoE should have an additional effect of some kind on champions, to make it worth taking over Lich Bane.

AnonagonJun 13, 20157 votes

Karma would rather have flat AP, since her ratios are insane.

Maokai doesn't build AP, except Dorans/Rod, maybe abyssal - if he's going top lane. In the jungle theres no point in even considering Runeglaive because of Cinderhulk.

Galio just really can't jungle. It would be a good example if he could, but he can't really.

And Diana would always prefer Lich Bane's more powerful proc to Runeglaive's. If she were trying to be tanky, she'd prefer IBG.

Also the mana store only applies against monsters so your point about Maokai/Galio using it in teamfights is moot.

If they increase the numbers on runeglaive, it can't be to the proc, because lots of AP junglers can't even use the proc outside of the jungle. It needs higher AP. A lot higher. 80 AP is meh. 40 is abysmal. The procs primary purpose - no, the procs ONLY purpose should be mana sustain in the jungle - it honestly shouldn't even build out of Sheen.

dr lichdeathJun 13, 20152 votes

what happens if u do both?does it mean u do (75%ad +50%ap)*75% +30% ap? or what is the exact on hit effect stuff anyways?

AnonagonJun 13, 20152 votes

You would deal Lich Bane's damage to the primary target, and Runeglaive's in the AoE. Thats how it works if you get both Lich Bane and IBG.

blueberrypancakeJun 13, 20151 votes

Galio can jungle

He has WW tier sustain

SH AzykanJun 13, 20152 votes

and insanely crappy clear speed? and ganks that are even worse until 6 (and even then would have to blow flash to get off a good ult in the gank)

No Galio is a terrible jungler. Take him top lane and be awesome.

DengedenJun 13, 20153 votes

You're implying that junglers getting to seven items is a regular occurence and (at the very least in competitive) that just isn't a thing.

Even if the item falls off late, it'll still be great for clearing the jungle until the jungler becomes a solo laner with smite..

AnonagonJun 13, 20158 votes

Whether or not "lategame" actually happens, jungle items need to scale into lategame and be slot efficient. There's a reason Cinderhulk gives a %HP bonus. There's a reason Devourer can infinitely scale. Warrior may not have any sort of extra scaling that way but its still an insanely cost and slot efficient item that bruisers wouldn't even think of selling lategame. Riot wants jungle items to be effective at all stages of the game, because otherwise there would be no point to having them, and the reward for being a jungler would simply be too low.

ArknaJun 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Whether or not "lategame" actually happens, jungle items need to scale into lategame and be slot efficient. There's a reason Cinderhulk gives a %HP bonus. There's a reason Devourer can infinitely scale. Warrior may not have any sort of extra scaling that way but its still an insanely cost and slot efficient item that bruisers wouldn't even think of selling lategame. Riot wants jungle items to be effective at all stages of the game, because otherwise there would be no point to having them, and the reward for being a jungler would simply be too low.

Cinderhulk actually gives % health because defensive stats, by design, don't have the exponential scaling that offense does. That isn't a problem until you factor in the lower gold values in the jungle, putting junglers who want defensive stats further behind the curve.

SinneliJun 13, 20154 votes

I think it would be best of Runeglaive starts to change its stats as people level. Give more AP, perhaps give more CD as they level into late game, or increase in the Spellblade Passive (though it would make it bad for other AP junglers)

If they don't want to add more damage to it, they might as well add a shield on the spellblade passive to add to their survival or something because this honestly feels like a downer.

PokladnicaZlaJun 13, 20153 votes

They only added it,because they want Ekko to jugnle. :))

AP,CD,mana + sheen passive=Ekko jugnle :O

TROLL post.Sry couldnt help it. :D

TourianJun 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Except Magus was an incredibly general item that every AP jungler could use efficiently. The only problem is that it lacked mana sustain functionality, which could easily have been added while reducing the AP and CDR a bit as compensation

You are right about Runeglaive being unnecessarily specific though. In fact, I can't think of a single champion who wouldn't sell the thing lategame. Its horribly slot-inefficient. Its weaker than Lich Bane, so mage-assassins like Nidalee and Diana aren't helped, since they would rather have the higher single target damage and AP of Lich Bane than Runeglaive's AoE proc. And most other AP champions simply won't take the time out of their rotation to try and AA the enemy lategame - they'd much rather have an item with much more AP. Past the early game, Runeglaive is really only good on champions who are a) going to AA, and b) would rather have AoE than single target burst, which is... no one.

Except why wouldn't you just sell Magus for a Morello? As someone who's played this item on the PBE, its really nice. It improves your clear by reducing dependency on spells a bit as well as adding a nice spirit stone effect. The only AP jungle that can't benefit is Fiddle who is in a pretty good spot anyway, and the lichbane scaling with IBG aoe is going to improve fiddles abysmal wave clear.

diamondlightJun 13, 20151 votes

Because you lose the specialized smite and the jungle gold.

AbyssphereJun 13, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dr Kaboom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ge5MQ3Rv,comment-id=000100050000,timestamp=2015-06-13T20:20:44.043+0000)

Because you lose the specialized smite and the jungle gold.

That's an argument in favour of keeping Runeglaive too though.

AnonagonJun 13, 20152 votes

Except Runeglaive has half the combat stats

You would sell Runeglaive for Morellos to double its stats

Magus has equal stats and an equal passive in the form of smite, so you wouldn't sell it for Morellos

For most champions, the spellblade passive is NOT worth the lost 40 AP and 10% CDR

Jungle Lux GodJun 13, 20152 votes

This implies that AP champs can get to their late game.

And no AP jungler is going to get to their late game if they keep running out of mana after 2 camps unless they take every blue. To be fair, a jungler taking their own blue is perfectly fine at every stage of the game, but no class of junglers as a whole should be required to take blue every time it is up in order to stay relevant in the game. Of course there are some exceptions that don't have severe mana problems, but the truth is that a large majority of AP champions do have severe mana problems in the jungle.

AP champs have historically taken solo lanes (mostly mid) because the solo lanes offered the most experience, and AP junglers don't have that advantage because of their own lesser experience. In that context, they need to be able to impact the game on a consistent basis, and there are no mana or mana regeneration items that allow them to give that kind of presence every once in a while, let alone on a consistent basis, except now for Runeglaive.

There are quite a few champs that would sell it late game, but in the early game this item enables a lot of AP junglers that weren't possible before.

AnonagonJun 13, 20152 votes

I've already replied to similar statements so I'll just ctrl c ctrl v:

"Whether or not "lategame" actually happens, jungle items need to scale into lategame and be slot efficient. There's a reason Cinderhulk gives a %HP bonus. There's a reason Devourer can infinitely scale. Warrior may not have any sort of extra scaling that way but its still an insanely cost and slot efficient item that bruisers wouldn't even think of selling lategame. Riot wants jungle items to be effective at all stages of the game, because otherwise there would be no point to having them, and the reward for being a jungler would simply be too low."

"The only problem is that it [Magus] lacked mana sustain functionality, which could easily have been added while reducing the AP and CDR a bit as compensation"

flibitydooJun 13, 201512 votes

The only AP jungler this sucks on is fiddlesticks. Everyone else auto attacks the camps they are killing. You'd have to be a special kind of intelligence to not auto attack.

which at worst, you are going to weave an auto between drains which does the aoe damage and helps him clear the sidekicks without relying on the RNG silence-bounce-crow.

AnonagonJun 13, 201510 votes

think about lategame for a second then you'll realize why runeglaive is shit

flibitydooJun 13, 201513 votes

Oh yeah I forgot that AP itemization is horrible lategame. I can barely break the 200 ap mark at the 50 minute mark item 3089 item 3157 item 3165 item 3135 item 3023 item 3285 item 3116 item 3001 item 3115 item 3027 item 3040 item 3152 item 3174

DrNovaJun 13, 20156 votes

The point, you dimwit, is after early game, only, its a wasted item, which anyone in their right mind would sell for something useful.

If you have to put money into it and sell it later because keeping it is pointless, its a bad item

Rinky DinkyJun 13, 20155 votes

And how the hell is that even that bad? It's perfectly fine until late late game, when you can just sell it for a lichbane.

I fail to see the problem.

NilokJun 13, 20152 votes

What happens to your improved Smite when you sell your jungle item?

Rinky DinkyJun 13, 20152 votes

You won't need it.

lol

NilokJun 13, 20153 votes

So you are either losing a slow/speed boost or a tanking ability summoner spell for fights and downgrading back to a normal smite.

Black Star 1299Jun 13, 20154 votes

And getting better damage.

Mostly on AP jglers, you arent gonna get the tanking ability summoner spell, and get the trailblazer, so it really doesnt affect it too much.

Skia AsteriJun 13, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lane Cancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ge5MQ3Rv,comment-id=00040000000000010000,timestamp=2015-06-13T09:02:36.579+0000)

And how the hell is that even that bad? It's perfectly fine until late late game, when you can just sell it for a lichbane.

I fail to see the problem.

Because then there is not an enchantment that makes item 3715 slot efficient.

Jungle Lux GodJun 13, 20151 votes

I thought about lategame for a second, and thought it was bad.

I thought about it for a minute, and thought it was good because Magus doesn't let you get to late game if you buy it early.

Unless you don't have mana problems of course. And 90% of AP champions have mana problems in the jungle.

AnonagonJun 13, 20152 votes

wow its almost as if I already said that A) Magus' only problem is that it doesn't offer mana sustain, and B) that whether or not "lategame" actually happens jungle items need to be good lategame

AbrahamBaconhamJun 13, 20153 votes

By the time he has enough gold to get the enchantment he'll probably be at the point where he doesn't need to AA anymore can can just chain-drain his camps.

adkoralmightyJun 13, 201511 votes

how about they keep the magus enchant but add this item as well?

when the ap jungler is finally able to sustain through the jungle and wont need the item anymore they can just sell it for magus

Khell DarkWolfJun 13, 20157 votes

Let me iterate to those that think Runeglaive is going to be great for mage junglers.

I want you to think about this:

Warrior Enchant: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Warrior Magus Enchant: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Magus Runeglaive: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-3oQJlFnn_ys/VXtPaPSlLzI/AAAAAAAAraA/fegel4UE3xc/s1600/runegl.jpg

For the total price of 2250g, you're paying for:

15 extra AP (25 base AP from sheen upgrade)
10% Free CDR (out of nowhere)
An spellblade passive that is geared to aid mana issues for an early game jungler plus a semi damaging AoE add-on to it (weaker Lichbane)

The combine cost is 200g when you have your tier 2 jungle item (trail blazer, skirmishers etc) + sheen on hand in inventory.

It might look good on paper, but the real issue is that:

The cost is too high for how nill the amount of you're paying for it
Cost is high because sheen is used as an ingredient item
It benefits only junglers that want to Autoattack after each spell cast
The mana sustain passive doesn't come early enough for the reason why people have complained to begin with
Mid/late game this has terrible stats and utility to the slot and is inefficient if you have to think about selling it later
Mana sustain works BETTER the more mana you have

Warrior and Magus are both 1400g, that is a 850g difference to RuneGlaive's 2250g for less stats and utility.

For only 50g more (900g total), you could get a Chalice of Harmony (if you really have that much trouble with mana sustain): http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Chalice And then, if you so desire you could upgrade to athenes for more AP and CDR and the passive.

The thing you have to think about that Magus did that had an upper hand on warrior and does on Runeglaive:

Magus gives you a chunk of stats needed so you can focus on other things you need in term of stats missing
Cheap enough that it upgrades well early and useable to keep as the game goes on into mid/late game

The problem I see is that it is easy to differentiate AD jungle types (warrior and devourer enchant) and tanks (Juggernaut and Cinderhulk) but the misconception is that Mage junglers are far FAR more diverse to classify to a single itemization of a jungle item (Magus vs. Runeglaive).

The same could be said to AD type junglers, we have two variants dependent on flavor of the jungler cause they have different classes.

This is one of those cases that the assumption is Mage junglers are the same as Tanky junglers that need one Item which is simply not true.

You would have to keep both (Magus and Runeglaive) because different junglers depend on different aspects of the jungle item they choose.

Runeglaive is still by far a band-aid that in my honest opinion doesn't fix the issue but might just make it worse.

But it would be foolish to replace Magus for this in the assumption that it will be a one item fits all magey junglers.

Cause if that was the case for the AD junglers, then how come we don't have only Warrior Enchant? or Only Devourer Enchant without the other counterpart?

SoMNiaJun 13, 20151 votes

What? ALL jungle enchantments are a tier 2 jungle item and 1400 gold. That 1400 is on top of the cost of the tier 2 jungle item. They are ALL 2250 total.

The stats ARE too low, though. It should at least give 60 AP.

Khell DarkWolfJun 13, 20151 votes

I'll correct myself, I meant the tier 1 jungle item (machete into trailblazer etc items) + ingredient item.

The fact is the stats do suck for being low on Runeglaive. It is also the fact that they should have gone the route of making a stepping up tier item like they did with Bami's cinder into cinderhulk/Sunfire cape.

The comparison is Amplifying Tome (20 AP) into Codex (30 AP which is net gain of +10 AP & 10% CDr) into Magus (80 AP + 20% CDR) is a net gain of +50 AP and +10% CDR.

Amplifying Tome into sheen is +5 AP gain into Runeglaive is only a net gain of +15 AP (40 AP total) with +10% CDR and two small passives (IMO).

The issue has been stated before (like tank junglers before), if mage junglers have an issue with mana sustain early game. Then we need it early, not just beginning to get it once the item is finished.

This item also doesn't cater to all aspects of the mage junglers, only one specific set like those champions who want devourer only vs those that only want Warrior enchant.

SoMNiaJun 13, 20154 votes

But Sheen does serve that purpose. It grants more AP than the Tome, and it grants a larger mana pool which allows you to stay active longer, which in turn allows you to spend more time regenerating mana before being out, which also results in having more mana available. On the other hand, the combine cost is only 200 gold. How often will someone go b and only get Sheen if they already have their tier 2 jungle item? Sheen is very gold-inefficient in terms of stats, anyway.

The problem is that the numbers aren't there. They looked at Brutalizer and Warrior (also 25 --> 40), and figured that was good enough, but AP items give larger chunks of stats than AD items, and the whole game is balanced around that fact, so having an AP item that is merely equal to an AD item is blatantly underpowered, especially if they're considered core items like these are. It doesn't even matter that it also gives some mana and a decent passive. Warrior's AD is half of that given by items built out of BF Sword, so Runeglaive's AP should be half that given by items built out of Needlessly Large Rod (they've got to make it at least 60). Any less has no hope of ever being considered slot efficient. If not a jungle item, it would never be built, and as a jungle item, it will end up being sold for a stronger item in spite of the AoE Spellblade effect. It's just not good enough, especially not when Lich Bane exists.

SorgklaanJun 13, 20152 votes

Pretty much.

Meep ManJun 13, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much.

Well, who is the current AP junglers?

Akali Diana Ekko Elise Evelynn Fiddlesticks Nidalee and maybe Warwick

What I'm trying to say is, it works perfectly fine on all of them except maybe Fiddlesticks.

You are right about Runeglaive being unnecessarily specific though. In fact, I can't think of a single champion who wouldn't sell the thing lategame. Its horribly slot-inefficient. Its weaker than Lich Bane, so mage-assassins like Nidalee and Diana aren't helped, since they would rather have the higher single target damage and AP of Lich Bane than Runeglaive's AoE proc. And most other AP champions simply won't take the time out of their rotation to try and AA the enemy lategame - they'd much rather have an item with much more AP. Past the early game, Runeglaive is really only good on champions who are a) going to AA, and b) would rather have AoE than single target burst, which is... no one.

Diana, Elise, Eve... these three I think would keep it. This also why it is on the PBE. To be balanced.

thinking manJun 13, 20157 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ge5MQ3Rv,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-06-13T04:12:09.325+0000)

Well, who is the current AP junglers?

and maybe

What I'm trying to say is, it works perfectly fine on all of them except maybe Fiddlesticks.

yes but it is completely garbage unusable on Fiddlesticks which is a problem

SammystormJun 13, 20154 votes

To be fair fiddle doesn't need a jungle item to clear camps.

Voluug13Jun 13, 20157 votes

But he needs the smite effect and extra gold on clear.

thinking manJun 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

To be fair fiddle doesn't need a jungle item to clear camps.

Yeah but you want a Smite item since they're all powerful which means Fiddlesticks has to be worse off for Smiting. It's also not that easy to clear without starting Machete with how the jungle works; Fiddles is getting shafted.

Meep ManJun 13, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Phane Sorter,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ge5MQ3Rv,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-13T04:14:11.934+0000)

yes but it is completely garbage unusable on Fiddlesticks which is a problem

It gives him more mana sustain than Magus did. If anything, its the same or better than Magus on him. Sure the stats may need a buff (thats why its the PBE), but its a good item for early sustain on him overall.

Lil SoybeanJun 13, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Inept Maverick,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ge5MQ3Rv,comment-id=0000000000000001,timestamp=2015-06-13T06:25:47.640+0000)

It gives him more mana sustain than Magus did. If anything, its the same or better than Magus on him. Sure the stats may need a buff (thats why its the PBE), but its a good item for early sustain on him overall.

Current Magus + 5% CDR from masteries + Lucidity boots = early 40% CDR on Fiddle. This item will make him have 40 less AP and make him take much longer to reach the 40% CDR cap. His primary rush after Lucidity/Magus is Zhonya's (In my opinion). So you either delay his core Zhonya's for 10% extra CDR, or you rush Zhonya's and just accept that you aren't at the CDR cap anymore, meaning less Ultis, less drains, etc.

Basically it's a huge nerf to Fiddle in general, who is already extremely unpopular and risky to play in the tank meta. It's inferior for auto-attack based AP junglers like Diana, because they could go Lich Bane instead for a stronger Spellblade proc. It's basically worse for almost everyone.

jDVL20eCYsJun 13, 20151 votes

lucidity magnus rush fiddle? that was the bronze build of the year. cdr is overrated on fiddle. only support fiddle its good. not saying cdr is bad. but fiddle is all about his ult surprised one rotation aoe deletion. cdr so overrated on fiddle. stop build like that please

Lil SoybeanJun 13, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=ekko or feed,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ge5MQ3Rv,comment-id=000000000000000100000001,timestamp=2015-06-13T21:13:57.570+0000)

lucidity magnus rush fiddle? that was the bronze build of the year. cdr is overrated on fiddle. only support fiddle its good. not saying cdr is bad. but fiddle is all about his ult surprised one rotation aoe deletion. cdr so overrated on fiddle. stop build like that please

In my experience, the question wasn't "is my ulti strong enough to blow everyone up," the question was, "is my ulti up in time to blow everyone up?"

It seemed to be an all-or-nothing sort of situation, where the ultimate didn't really seem to lack damage, but it was on a long enough cooldown that you did have to make sure to use it conservatively or else you risked not having it up for key teamfights.

More CDR = more readily available for big teamfights & more freelo ulti ganks.

FrikgeekJun 13, 20151 votes

Do people even need magus on Fiddlesticks? Most of the ones I see just rush mobility boots into hourglass, maybe pick up magus after hourglass (although you could just get a morellonomicon).

MakraJun 13, 20153 votes

It has amazing stats for the amount of gold you spend, is much easier to build toward in early game than zhonyas (that 1600 is tough unless you're ahead) and gives you an earlier power spike than any other item.

Yes you can get away with not building it (almost only if you're ahead), but it is still a core item for him and what most successful fiddle players build first.

MakraJun 13, 20153 votes

If anything, its the same or better than Magus on him.

No. Just no. Fiddles does not have sustain problems. Magus has built in mana regen, and combined with blue buff or a couple of mana pots he is absolutely fine. I don't even see the problem with forcing him to rely on a few mana pots either, because most other junglers are forced to buy health pots, which fiddles has the luxury of not needing.

Cutting out half of his early game stats, for mana regen which he doesn't need, is ridiculous.

Edit: Not magus, but the completed jungle item has mana regen.