A suggestion about Elise...

Livin like Riven··21 votes·1,521 views

I have seen quite some people complain about Elise being over-nerfed and in need of buffs. Maybe she got favored by the nerf-bat for some time but I don't agree that she needs just a simple buff. The problem with Elise imo is that she lacks a clear identity. She is branded as a Mage with Fighter elements but she performs badly in both, and instead is good at being an Assassin, but even that falls off really hard starting mid game and completely at the late game.

As a Mage she can't provide anything useful to the team, because besides for the fact that her W, which is her biggest damage source in Human form (I might be wrong, correct me if I am), is useless (team fights, always) unless you choose to Spider Q to your target so he can eat up all the damage, you, a squishy mage, just jumped in the middle of the enemy team and you are going to be killed in the blink of an eye.

As a Fighter, even though you can take a little more punishment from the enemy, you'll be doing no relevant damage anyways and you'll still die fast.

Playing Elise as an Assassin, which is the most viable route to take in her current state is lackluster because of how hard she falls off starting the mid game. You'll be doing damage but your victim will nearly always escape with at least a 1/3 of their health or a little less.

So I was thinking about two ways in which Elise can find her proper identity and become stronger at the same time. Make her either a pure Mage or a pure Assassin and remove her Fighter branding because she clearly lacks in that area.

As a Mage, allow Elise to be able to Rappel (higher rank) to allied champions as well as enemy champions. This will allow her to combo someone from the enemy (while jumping on the enemy team, so there's a clear weakness here) and then get back to safety through Rappel. At higher levels Rappel's cooldown should be short, on par with other mages abilities. I think this wouldn't make Elise unbearable in lane or as a jungler as I don't think that anyone goes for leveling Cocoon first or second on her. It would just give a much needed boost to her late game.

As an Assassin, make Elise's Spider Q (on higher levels) have refunded cooldown on the enemy that Elise used her previous Q on if that enemy fell below a certain amount of health, like maybe 30% or 40%. I think that this way she will be able to properly assassinate enemies on the late game without having them escape with 1/3 of their health and have them recuperating with LifeSteal, Heals or whatever while she herself dies afterwards due to Rappel not being usable on an ally and letting her team on a 4vs5 fight. I can see how this might end up buffing up lane Elise a little bit, but jungler Elise will be unaffected, me thinks. You can test it and if it ends up being overbearing, then you can probably tone down Q on early ranks and buff it (yes, buff, as in bigger numbers than the current live values) on the higher ranks, a nice and well deserved transition from a toned down early to a strong late.

So yeah, that's about it. As a Mage, Rappel will actually play an important part on Elise's playstyle and it will give her a clear weakness, if she uses it, she is vulnerable afterwards. At the moment Rappel just serves as either a jungle escaping tool if there are are creep nearby and if the jungle is warded, of course, or as an ability to delay your inevitably getting burst by the enemy by a couple of seconds. As an Assassin she will be the current Elise, but actually viable in the late game contrary to her rather useless current state.

Thematically the changes would make sense as well. As in her Mage change, a deadly swift spider lady attacks her target, deals as much damage as is possible and then escapes, spiders are supposed to be slippery. Classy Elise. As in her Assassin change, she is a deadly swift spider lady but she is persistent on killing her target (Q, jumping on the target twice), because you know, big ass spiders like Elise might be persistent on killing someone no matter the consequences. Leeroy Jenkins Elise.

Yeah, that's about it. TL;DR is not coming, if you find a suitable TL;DR for this you are welcome to suggest it and I will add it.

"Not even the spider is safe in her web." (current Rappel) - Elise

15 Comments

Kapppaccino3 votes

I play her as a tank and she's perfect. :p haven't used her since her buff but... Cmon its a buff lol she couldn't have gotten worse with a buff

Livin like Riven1 votes

{quoted}

I play her as a tank and she's perfect. :p haven't used her since her buff but... Cmon its a buff lol she couldn't have gotten worse with a buff

It was just a buff to E's missile speed, it didn't fix any of her lackluster areas in any way.

You might play her as a tank but I'm sure that most Elise players play her as an AP assassin/mage. As far as I know any champion can be played as a tank with the proper items, I have tried Janna tank, Teemo tank, even Sona tank. :P Its about being viable in the role that the champion is made for. And Elise is rather weak in her role(s), if she has any.

Kapppaccino1 votes

{quoted}

It was just a buff to E's missile speed, it didn't fix any of her lackluster areas in any way.

You might play her as a tank but I'm sure that most Elise players play her as an AP assassin/mage. As far as I know any champion can be played as a tank with the proper items, I have tried Janna tank, Teemo tank, even Sona tank. :P Its about being viable in the role that the champion is made for. And Elise is rather weak in her role(s), if she has any.

That I can agree with. :/ ap is mediocre.

Xela Syab1 votes

{quoted}

I play her as a tank and she's perfect. :p haven't used her since her buff but... Cmon its a buff lol she couldn't have gotten worse with a buff

She could use better initiatiion, maybe increase the range on her q. I like Elise but I feel like her mage form could use a facelift becuae Nidalee fulfills alot of the same niche that elise does and is a support with vision capabilities.

I think they should lower the mana on her q in mage form, for a skill with such low damage and high cooldown and no utility it really ought to cost half mana or have a mana return function or give her passive spellvamp on level. Her W should either allow player control so the spider doesnt just splode on a wave or that it has a warding mechanic like Maokai where it lingers for 90 seconds. Her E really ought to do some damage, it's the only mage stun in the game that DEALS NO DAMAGE! Christ leblance and zed have damage blinks but elise can't have a damage stun rito pls!

Narasimha1 votes

I think they should lower the mana on her q in mage form, for a skill with such low damage and high cooldown and no utility it really ought to cost half mana or have a mana return function or give her passive spellvamp on level.

Quick question, were you here for her Elise? They intentionally increased the mana cost on her Q because of how ridiculous it made her top lane.

Xela Syab1 votes

{quoted}

Quick question, were you here for her Elise? They intentionally increased the mana cost on her Q because of how ridiculous it made her top lane.

how? it has an 8 second cd and base damage similar to Ryze's q. Plus lulu's still wrecking top lane so why hurt Elise so bad.

Narasimha1 votes

Because of the %health damage and its synergy with Spider Form Q. %health always hurts. Also, her Spider Form gave her access to manaless sustain, which made it harder to push her out of lane.

Livin like Riven1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Xela Syab,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fcEgBFid,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-03-22T19:11:09.778+0000)

She could use better initiatiion, maybe increase the range on her q. I like Elise but I feel like her mage form could use a facelift becuae Nidalee fulfills alot of the same niche that elise does and is a support with vision capabilities.

I think they should lower the mana on her q in mage form, for a skill with such low damage and high cooldown and no utility it really ought to cost half mana or have a mana return function or give her passive spellvamp on level. Her W should either allow player control so the spider doesnt just splode on a wave or that it has a warding mechanic like Maokai where it lingers for 90 seconds. Her E really ought to do some damage, it's the only mage stun in the game that DEALS NO DAMAGE! Christ leblance and zed have damage blinks but elise can't have a damage stun rito pls!

Well, it doesn't really make sense when you think about it. Webs, damaging you?

But really, if they would buff her Q I think she would be rather overbearing to play against. Elise's laning is not the problem, she is probably one of the best laners in the game, her mid and late game as well as her team fighting is what she needs a boost in. No matter how well you did, how much you got fed, she falls off so hard.

Edit: But, if they did buff it, I can see how it would work by toning it down in early ranks and then buffing it up on late ranks.

Hinagiku331 votes

Elise wouldn't really work as an assassin.

Repel is NOT an instant gap-closer, and between landing Cacoon, transforming, and Repel-ing it'll take most of the stun duration to get to her target and apply damage. Unless her damage was utterly obscene and/or her stun duration was even longer she will still fail as an assassin once mid game rolls around.

As an assassin she'd also have to go glass cannon since tanky assassin are insta-nerfed. Unless you want to completely alter her kit to igve her the mechanics to do this and not suck, no amount of small tweaks will ever make this an optimal strategy for Elise.

That said, Mage/Fighter is just fine for Elise. Her optimal plan is, and should continue to be, building some Health/Resistances and some AP. In human form she throws out ranged damage and help lock down a target and when she transforms she has some tankyness to soak damage while she jumps on and scratches people to death with her spiderlings.

I think her ratios need to reflect that Elise can't go full glass cannon AP and be meaningful, a decent AP ratio on her Spider!W's on-hit heal could be good too, and if needed some tank stats applied on her ult (I think she had this when she was released) could help and gate the power to levels 6, 11, and 16.

Xela Syab1 votes

Idk, man we still have annoying champs like Lulu everywhere and Nidalee everywhere seems like Elise should be brought up higher since she's shyvana tier.

Livin like Riven1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Xela Syab,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fcEgBFid,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-03-23T02:12:36.048+0000)

Idk, man we still have annoying champs like Lulu everywhere and Nidalee everywhere seems like Elise should be brought up higher since she's shyvana tier.

Actually Shyv is competent in what she does, which is tanking and is not to be underestimated. I've seen Shyvs with Hydras and Botrk alone wrecking squishies while being tanky as fuck. But our experiences differ I suppose. :)

Elise on the other hand, what is she competent on?

Xela Syab1 votes

{quoted}

Actually Shyv is competent in what she does, which is tanking and is not to be underestimated. I've seen Shyvs with Hydras and Botrk alone wrecking squishies while being tanky as fuck. But our experiences differ I suppose. :)

Elise on the other hand, what is she competent on?

She's a great tower diver, she has good clears, she has ranged cc, counter health, 2 gap closers, disengage, some poke, sustain, and the HIGHEST AS modifier in the game. Essentially she's Rek'sai with weak initiation and no global threat.

Livin like Riven1 votes

So basically she's great in solo situations, what about team fights?

PrinceOfStorms1 votes

IMO Riot should do three things to Elise to bring her back into viability.

-Revert the change to Cocoon that reduced its projectile size.

-Give back bonus armor and MR in spider form.

-Allow Elise to Rappel to friendly units.

Varnoc1 votes

I've created a thread that slightly re-imagines Elise here. I constructed it with the intention of pushing her further into the mage/assassin role. Let me know what you think there, and what I can do to further push her in that direction.

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