Manaless mage CDR choices.

Kira Dusk Edge··1 votes·1,346 views

Hello message boards. Today I decided to go back to playing one of my favorite champions. Kennen I noticed overall that their is a lack of cdr options that are not either super specialized or have mana regen on them. I hate cdr itemization/runes in general right now for mages and I know the mage update is coming up. I would like a red to come and maybe give some info about if they are touching mage cdr itemization with the update. I'm just gonna put down a few thoughts I have on the current cdr items in relation to kennen.

item 3100 Very specialized towards empowered auto mages. Kennen in theory could buy it and have synergy with his w... But again like the issue with all cdr items... Mana. Also has to be combined with cdr boots.

item 3165 Mana regen. Nuff said.

item 3152 PLEASE make this item the manaless counterpart to morellonomicon. Find a way to balance it with 20% cdr. This would help manaless mages so much. Spellvamp is either an abusive stat or incredibly weak so this item would be much better served as a 20% cdr item for manaless mages.

item 3115 No. Kennen does not want attack speed or the passive effect. This item is so specialized it's only gotten on very few mages. Honestly a fine item with a good niche. Probably would buy it on kennen anyways as the other options are just as bad and at least the attack speed is better than mana. (also more expensive though)

item 3060 Honestly probably one of the strongest options for Kennen. Gives him survivability and ap/cdr. Have to couple it with cdr boots taking a chunk of your damage away but still one of the better items.

item 3174 Good if you need the stats. Terrible on Kennen. Moving on.

item 3050 This item could actually work for Kennen mid. If you link with your adc and go in when the passive procs you could get a lot of work done. It gives you some nice defensive stats... But it has mana.... Oh well moving on. (also needs cdr boots to finish the 20%)

item 3222 Support item. Doesn't give kennen anything other then cdr/mr and an active. Good support item. Terrible for kennen.

item 3092 Oh this item looks goo.... Mana.

item 3056 item 3190 item 3110 item 3065 item 3025 In a good place for tanks. Not useful for mages or kennen. Maybe some situational items you can get here for Kennen but most of it has mana on it anyways. Yeah I know right? Even the tank cdr items are against kennen.

item 3078 item 3508 item 3071 item 3812 item 3142 Obviously not going to be bought on AP kennen. But ad cdr is in a good spot right now.

I could list the rest of the support cdr itemization but it's not worth mentioning. Your not going to buy any of them unless your support Kennen and even then they have some mana stat on them making Kennen a sad panda.

I do have another solution to the mana thing. What if you made these items convert that mana regen/max mana in to a energy regen/max energy function. Basically give energy champs greatly reduced numbers. I understand this would require lots of tweaking but could also help with the cdr issue. Normally I will just buy morello and accept that I'm wasting a stat.

(On a side note most high level players are either doing cdr boots/20% item/10% runes. 15% runes/10% item/10% item and ignoring the 5% missing. Or 10% item/10% item/cdr boots/10% runes. The major thing is when cdr itemization sucks all mids opt to get cdr boots over pen boots and I wish that it was a strategic decision to pick one over the other instead of just one always being the right choice. Also most of these choices still suck for Kennen...)

Thanks for listening! Sorry if my mana points make me seem like a dick. I just find it odd most cdr items have mana on them.

Kennen Katarina Akali Vladimir A post brought to you by the manaless mages of Runeterra.

P.S. [[]] Here be a car from top-down view. Have a good day.

P.S.2. This is not a post about complaining and i'm sorry if it comes off that way. I still play kennen fine and can deal with the itemization I'm just curious if there will be changes that will change how we itemize cdr on mages.

24 Comments

Kyrrion3 votes

I'm not gonna cry about a little bit of "wasted" mana or mana regen on an AP item. Neither of those are combat stats. As far as offensive potency goes, they're just as effective on Kennen as they are on anyone else.

And no, we don't need Kennen abusing WotA again.

Kira Dusk Edge1 votes

I want them to rework the item and remove spellvamp off of it. Please read it. Spellvamp is either abused or weak so they are better off without it on items. Also it might not be as effective but it's still wasted stats. You wouldn't buy energy regen on mana mages so why are energy mages forced to get mana?

cuddlykitten41 votes

Spellvamp is fine

Kira Dusk Edge1 votes

Except it's only viable when abused by manaless mages. Vlad in particular is almost impossible to balance with wota In its current state. In fact when wota had mana regen it was the most worthless item since only manaless champs got it In the first place. Spell vamp is either abused or worthless.

cuddlykitten41 votes

This is an RPG. (yes, MOBAs are RPGs) Find me an RPG where people don't abuse the system and I'll give you a cookie. You will walk away with no cookies. I use WotA on literally EVERY mage I play. I have a reputation for being scary with mages. Why? Because I buy spellvamp. I never lose the CS fight because I have more sustain than my opponent. I win the duels because I have invisible health. While you're thinking "I hope I can 100-0 this guy" I"m thinking "if he doesn't 100-0 me he's fucked cause I have sustain and he'll be out of tricks." The only time Will is useless is on EXCLUSIVELY AoE abilitiy toons like Karthas (I never take it on kassadin for some weird reason either, not sure why, I just don't). Don't confuse being on the recommended page with being viable. Recommended items are for people who don't know the toon well enough to customize the build on the fly. Say it's useless all you want, just pray you never fight me in mid lane.

Kira Dusk Edge1 votes

So your saying cause its abusable in a competitive game it should be allowed? Good logic. Also the reason your spell camp is useless is its a wasted slot and wasted money when you could buy something better. AND it's useless come mid game. In a team fight where you get max 2 rotations you won't heal enough to make a difference when the person with more ap is just gonna 1 shot you. I know how to go even in a hard lane so even if you get a small lead it doesn't matter come mid game as I will have better combat stats. If wota is so op you would see it at high level play but you don't for a reason. It just doesn't do anything to help when going back makes you miss 1 wave at most. If you properly back with jungle push pressure. Also if I see you going wota I know not to duel you early and to wait for my bigger power spike to beat you.

cuddlykitten41 votes

If I have WotA I"m going to force you to fight. It's not up to you. You either fight me, or I'll bully you out of lane. After that I"m going after your bot lane. See? I know how to play with will. Get early item? Force early fights. You assume I"m going to give you time to go back for your rod or whatever cliche item you're after? No, I'm going to start off mean, remain mean, and end mean. You think one wave of cs doesn't make a difference? That's fool's talk right there. Especially when you count the multiple waves I held you off of because I know I can sustain out after we duel and you can't. Trust me, I watch what you build and build appropriately. Don't think I can bully you out of lane? Well, that little bit of CD lets me do that because you can't keep up with my cast rate, on top of the fact that it heals me. Don't think 20 health makes a difference? Well, at least once per game someone walks away with 20 or less health left. I"m that guy.

Kira Dusk Edge1 votes

Except you can't force me to fight. Most mages have a way of getting cs from long range plus with proper wave management I can make sure I get cs. I can ward to observe your rotations and push your lane hard and force tower damage if you roam. Yeah 1 wave is not that big of a deal. Sure it's missed cs but you act like that 6 cs will win you the game. At a high level people back and still end up with 80+ cs at 10 cause 1 wave is not the end of the world. When you have wota I will also have an item (probably FQC... Enables defensive and offensive play more and enables roams better). Plus the moment you start playing super aggressive is when I can call my jungler to help defend against you. You act like you can force fights when you really can't. You must be playing against people who have no idea what playing to your strengths is. Also living with low amount of health can happen no matter what lol. That's less the mark of a good item and more the mark of good players knowing just how much your champion can take and dish before having to retreat. I can do the same thing (living with low health after a team fight) without WotA. Again if WotA is just so op then why is every high level player not buying it? Cause it's not a good item compared to what you can get. It might work for you but overall it is not a good item.

cuddlykitten41 votes

Too bad I take will on every ap champ I touch, and I main kennen as my nonsupp champ :) LIFE GAIN LIFE GAIN LIFE GAIN LIFE GAIN LIFE GAIN LIFE GAIN

GEMS GEMS GEMS2 votes

If you're really passionate about getting a 20% CDR item on an AP champion item 3165 is king. Forget about the mana regen. You're getting 80 AP, 20% CDR and grievous wounds for only 2.4k...

You don't even need to finish building it all at once either. You can buy the item 3108 and item 3114 for it to get to 20% CDR earlier. Stacked with item 3158, some CDR runes and CDR mastery, you'll already be 45% CDR by mid game.

WoonStruck1 votes

Manaless mage CDR choices are low for a reason. So they aren't manaless spam-bots on a worse degree than they already are. Now they just need to do the same for AD CDR itemization, including ADCs. ADCs and assassins should have to invest in some non-offensive stats like mana if they want CDR, just like everyone else. Essence Reaver really is a bullshit item.

You just have to buckle down and make a 10-30% CDR page like everyone else.

Manaless champions either need energy or something like Rumble's mechanic, where CDR has some drawbacks as well, even if it doesn't show much in lane.

Kira Dusk Edge1 votes

But their choices are not low. you can get 10% boots 20% runes then just buy a 10% item. It's really just mana on everything is annoying. Also I do use cdr runes. Just like everyone else. :P.

WoonStruck1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kira Dusk Edge,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fXhBjbdU,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-02-14T17:29:34.636+0000)

But their choices are not low. you can get 10% boots 20% runes then just buy a 10% item. It's really just mana on everything is annoying. Also I do use cdr runes. Just like everyone else. :P.

So you're saying manaless champions shouldn't have any drawbacks for not having to deal with mana?

That was how they were originally going to be balanced, but Riot doesn't really give them any downsides atm. I'd take more mana on items any day, especially since mana scaling is such a lightly touched on thing that could be expanded if there were more than 2 items that gave significant mana for any class.

Kira Dusk Edge1 votes

Except they have longer cooldowns or energy as their drawback. Bad itemization should not be a drawback. That's like saying riven should have to build ap cause it makes her balanced. Why should a champion have to buy stats they don't want to get what they do want?

WoonStruck1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kira Dusk Edge,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=fXhBjbdU,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-02-14T18:06:24.113+0000)

Except they have longer cooldowns or energy as their drawback. Bad itemization should not be a drawback. That's like saying riven should have to build ap cause it makes her balanced. Why should a champion have to buy stats they don't want to get what they do want?

Energy is hardly a drawback when they can do their job before they ever run out and have an energy restoration mechanic anyway.

Riven, Renekton, etc, do not have long CDs. At all. Most manaless champions have pretty good burst, extremely frustrating harass patterns, decent sustained damage, and a really strong defensive ability/escape.

Consider the fact that most manaless champions have been a hard carry at some point in their lifetime. Then consider how most of their laning phases are very strong.

Tell me again why champions with mana should suffer more.

Duke Anax1 votes

Why not item 3115? I haven't played Kennen, but it seems at full cdr you wouldn't have enough energy to not AA in between. It's also really cost efficient.

Also why not item 3152 even without the heal it's cost efficient and it does have some effect on Kennen.

ALso item 3165 is very cost efficient, so you won't be wasting much on the mana regen.

Kira Dusk Edge1 votes

Nashors is the best choice honestly. Still not really good but less wasted stats. And like I said spellvamp is a bad stat and should just be gotten rid of. Its either abusive or weak but that's another topic. Also you wouldn't want to build nashors on the other manaless mages so its unfortunate for them.

Duke Anax1 votes

Well that's you oppinion, but if you refuse to use it don't complain that you can't use it.

Spell Vamp shouldn't be weak on Kennen, so abuse it.

Kira Dusk Edge1 votes

Except it is weak on kennen. You shouldnt need spell vamp in lane since you can Spam q for cs if your losing lane from safety and spellvamp is wasted outside of laning phase.

cuddlykitten41 votes

So you start a thread just so you can argue with all the good ideas? smh. No wonder he thinks there are no options.

Kira Dusk Edge1 votes

I didn't make this post to argue. I might have an opinion that the items are weaker. If you can convince me otherwise then I will accept it but I have yet to see why these options are any good on manaless mages. I even conceded that nashor's tooth is not actually bad and is probably the best option. WotA is not a good option. It is a terrible item in it's current state. If you can come up with a reason why I would buy an item over others then make it and if it makes sense I will concede that I am wrong. Again the main reason I made this thread was hopefully to get some insight on if they were touching manaless mage cdr itemization in the mage update.

YuGiHo1 votes

yes give item 3152 20 cdr please. whats the worst that could happen Vladimir =)

Kira Dusk Edge1 votes

K I guess I need to clarify that I feel that they should just rework WotA and remove spellvamp. It's only good in abuse cases and the item would be better served as a 20% cdr item for manaless mages.

WoonStruck1 votes

{quoted}

yes give item 3152 20 cdr please. whats the worst that could happen Vladimir =)

Vlad's not the biggest issue with that, tbh. It'd giving me a whopping 3% bonus MS or 10 AP. Maybe MR instead if I wanted. Vlads cover all their CDR via runes/boots already.

Also, you're forgetting that it would likely add another 400ish or so gold so if WotA got more CDR, thus delaying a small power-spike of his.

Most decent Vlads go mid now-days anyway, so it really wouldn't be an abuse case.

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