Developer player dialogue on Veigar changes

Ralquez·Feb 2, 2015·11 votes·1,957 views

It has been several days since the patch that removed DFG and mentioned that Veigar was a larger project that would be in patch 5.3 . Since then, there have been no developer postings or changes on the PBE. Since I really like Veigar as a champion, I am interested in finding out what Riot’s plans are for the tiny master of evil. I realize that most plans for him are probably finalized and unlikely to be changed at this point but I would still like to know what is going to happen to one of my favorite champions.

Can any Rioter shed light on what direction he is being taken in?

19 Comments

AerialBladeFeb 2, 20152 votes

Veigar needs a rework, his kit is toxic and stupid. If he were ever viable, he would be gutted IMMEDIATELY(which I would be thankful for). So... that's what I'm assuming might happen.

The Red WardenFeb 2, 20156 votes

So it is better for a champion that is annoying to be useless than actually viable. What if your main was suddenly thought of as toxic by the community? Would you like it if they were then gutted into unviability? Because any champion that annoys people should be gutted, correct?

Veigar does have low counter-play in the late game because of his instantaneous 2.5 second stun, and with how his ult instantly kills anyone with ap, I admit that. Veigar has a horrible early game however, and that is where he is held in check. In the early game anytime Veigar wants to stop hugging tower he either has to have his stun up, or risk being insta-killed since he is squishy, immobile, and the rest of his kit is just damage.

In my honest opinion, Veigar has a very healthy power curve over a match. He starts off very weak and is mostly a free kill for any assassin with a gap-closer pre-6. Yes he can get AP stacks from his Q, but that isn't very noticeable until late game. Veigar then gets his ult at the the start of the mid-game but is still very fragile, getting killed near instantly by anyone who isn't insta bursted. He then gets to late game where all of the punishment he got earlier can be paid back. His Q stacks become noticeable and his stun is game-changing. Veigar has a strong late-game because the rest of the game game is suffering once enemies realize how he easy he is to kill as long as his stun isn't up.

AerialBladeFeb 2, 20153 votes

Veigar isn't healthy at all. Pressing r and clicking on who you want to insta-delete is in no way fair or fun for anyone. I want him to be reworked into something that is interesting and unique, not a point and click nuke bot. His early game sucks, sure, but he can still easily drop mid laners at 15 minutes and beyond with his ult scaling off enemy AP(for what reason?). And yes, I main Yasuo, I know how it feels to be deemed 'toxic' and have my champion gutted. But I assure you, if Veigar ever became popular, or played competitively, he would be nerfed so fast. You wouldn't want that, would you?

The Red WardenFeb 3, 20153 votes

I admitted in my response that Veigar has low counter play, but at his current power level (especially after the removal of DFG) that is fine. When Riot changes Veigar they won't just buff damage, since that would just open a brand new can of worms. They will probably give him an Ahri like change, where he trades some parts of his kit to make his other, unique attributes stronger. Right now Veigar has the correct amount of power for how low his counter play is. Any buff would make him OP but any nerf would make make him feel useless. Veigar needs a kit change not just nerfs or buffs.

Veigar's identity is probably the main problem though because he is the burst mage. His identity is the super scaling mage who insta-bursts any oppose his wrath. How do you rework a champion whose main identity is of instantly bursting people, healthy? A change like that must take a long time to figure out, which is why it hasn't happened yet.

AerialBladeFeb 3, 20151 votes

He is the 'tiny master of evil'. In no way do I see him being a master of evil currently, simply a space-oriented guy who shoots instadeath balls at people. If you wanna make a burst mage, you don't give him a stun, you don't give him random scaling off enemies' AP. Counterplay can be given by making his ult a skillshot, removing the enemy ap scaling, and... not sure how else to balance him considering those nerfs.

The Red WardenFeb 3, 20152 votes

What if you changed the ult into a slow moving death orb that is broken up into two parts. The first part would be a targeted cast (as it is currently) that marks the character for the second but would do no damage. The second part would launch a very large death orb (around the size of Trundle) that moves extremely slowly but eventually would hit the opponent. The counterplay would be that whenever the orb comes in contact with an enemy minion/champion/ jungle monster, it would lose 10% of its damage and size up to 50%,but would gain 10% movespeed each time up to 50%. Those hit would take damage equal to the lost ratio damage, only the true target would be effected by the base damage. The orb would lose the enemy AP scaling but would now start with an AP ratio of 200% (maybe 175%), this ratio would then decrease at maximum to 100% (the base damage always stays the same).

This would embrace his dark lord theme since he will actually have an ability that is impending doom. The shrinking size would add clarity, and the increasing speed would stop it from feeling like a snail. It starts off as a giant death ball that could kill almost anyone, to a fast moving but weaker strike. It would keep the sense of power his ult currently has, increases the visual spectacle of it, and adds counter play.

AerialBladeFeb 3, 20151 votes

Sounds like a good idea, but I'm still reluctant to make his ult targetted in any way. A little burst mage should be countered by mobility(he already is, in a way, but his E is still too strong of an ability to make him particularly weak to mobility). Giving him more skillshots(on his ult probably) is really the only way to make him 'healthy' again.

The Red WardenFeb 4, 20151 votes

If everything is a skillshot the game basically becomes Smite (where even melee autos can be dodged). The game needs some targeted abilities, other wise the champion with the most dodges would be the strongest. In my opinion, an ult while necessary of some counter play should always feel strong. If a champ has a skill shot ult on a 80+ second cooldown and is the main power point of the kit then that ability has to be extremely strong otherwise it would just feel like wasted potential. My suggestion is of an ultimate that would still allow for massive burst but would now have counter play, and fits him more. If that became his ult, the only insta-damage spell that he would have would be his Q. His W is near impossible to land without the stun or a teamates cc and this ult would take at least 1.5 seconds at mininum to hit someone. Veigar would still kill almost anyone who gets stunned, but Syndra/Brand/Annie also have the stun then burst play-style.

With my suggestion Veigar loses his ability to insta-kill you unless you get stunned (if you really hate the stun that much buy tenacity or take summoner 1 / item 3140 ) but gains a new theme as the impending doom burst caster. His main 2 burst skills would be delayed (W and R) damage sources so that you don't just get insta-killed but have time to react. It also allows champions like Yorick or Zilean to hard counter Veig since they will just cast their revive on whoever gets targeted.

YoellaFeb 3, 20154 votes

Veigar does have low counter-play in the late game because of his instantaneous 2.5 second stun, and with how his ult instantly kills anyone with ap, I admit that. Veigar has a horrible early game however, and that is where he is held in check.

I main Veigar, and he actually has a ton of simple counterplay, people just generally don't bother with it at all or until he's snowballed too hard.

Magic Resist. Seems obvious, I know, but you'd be surprised how often people either pick up a miniscule amount or none at all vs Veigar, those people tend to cry the most too. MR really screws with Veigar because of reason #2.
He can either kill you with a combo, or he has almost no hope of killing you at all. If you're still alive after Veigar QWR's you, congrats, Veigar is a free kill for you at least until he gets another AP item or farms for days.
Stun down? Massive cooldown? Yeah. Veigar's a free kill.
BUY TENACITY, BANSHEE'S, OR QSS There isn't a single stat that screws over a champion as much as Tenacity or QSS screws over Veigar. It makes him almost useless.
Don't be stupid. If Veigar is on the enemy team and is doing well, don't ignore what I've said above. Everyone who whines about Veigar never buys Tenacity or Banshee's against him.

CHAMPIONS THAT RENDER HIM (largely) USELESS: I don't mean lane counters, I mean champions with skills or abilities that seriously mess with his gameplay.

Morgana: Her shield will let enemies pass right through your stun, as well as soak up your damage.
Garen: This guy does not die. This is the classic Veigar dilemma of "if you can't combo it, you can't kill it".
Anyone with a gapcloser. Veigar is a non-mobile mage, this should be self explanatory.
Anyone with temporary invulnerability (including Zhonya's). Nice stun, mind if I walk through it as if it were nothing? Oh was that your ult, sorry it missed me.
Anybody who's smart enough to not let Veigar farm in the beginning will render his whole game obsolete.

I hate it when people whine about Veigar, if the guy were as OP as some people say then he'd be in every match, every game, every day. How often do you see Veigar, especially in ranked? Hardly ever. Hell I've seen just about as many Urgots, if not more.

Hard PenetratorFeb 3, 20153 votes

Your post should be copy pasted to every guy that whines about Veigar. But all of them just repeating ONE SHOT ONE SHOT ONE SHOT.

Most of the ppl that cry about Veigar are adc that just refuse to buy mercs even if that would save his life like 5 times straight.

Flay and PrayFeb 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I main Veigar, and he actually has a ton of simple counterplay, people just generally don't bother with it at all or until he's snowballed too hard.

Magic Resist. Seems obvious, I know, but you'd be surprised how often people either pick up a miniscule amount or none at all vs Veigar, those people tend to cry the most too. MR really screws with Veigar because of reason #2.

He can either kill you with a combo, or he has almost no hope of killing you at all. If you're still alive after Veigar QWR's you, congrats, Veigar is a free kill for you at least until he gets another AP item or farms for days.

Stun down? Massive cooldown? Yeah. Veigar's a free kill.

BUY TENACITY, BANSHEE'S, OR QSS There isn't a single stat that screws over a champion as much as Tenacity or QSS screws over Veigar. It makes him almost useless.

Don't be stupid. If Veigar is on the enemy team and is doing well, don't ignore what I've said above. Everyone who whines about Veigar never buys Tenacity or Banshee's against him.

CHAMPIONS THAT RENDER HIM (largely) USELESS: I don't mean lane counters, I mean champions with skills or abilities that seriously mess with his gameplay.

Morgana: Her shield will let enemies pass right through your stun, as well as soak up your damage.

Garen: This guy does not die. This is the classic Veigar dilemma of "if you can't combo it, you can't kill it".

Anyone with a gapcloser. Veigar is a non-mobile mage, this should be self explanatory.

Anyone with temporary invulnerability (including Zhonya's). Nice stun, mind if I walk through it as if it were nothing? Oh was that your ult, sorry it missed me.

Anybody who's smart enough to not let Veigar farm in the beginning will render his whole game obsolete.

I hate it when people whine about Veigar, if the guy were as OP as some people say then he'd be in every match, every game, every day. How often do you see Veigar, especially in ranked? Hardly ever. Hell I've seen just about as many Urgots, if not more.

I love you. I was about to go on a rant and list all of the counterplays to my tiny yordle master but you did it for me. + 1

The Red WardenFeb 4, 20151 votes

Trust me, I know. I maimed Veigar for a round 4 months and picked up on his weaknesses and strengths. You forgot to mention how he gets countered by champions with revives (Veigar and Yorick). Whichever teammate their Veigar focuses their stun on, you press R on. Suddenly Veigar's entire purpose becomes a failure since you just have them revive a second later.

Also if people really fear his stun that much why don't they just take summoner 1 . If it is sooooo OP why don't you take the summoner ability that makes it useless?

YoellaFeb 4, 20151 votes

Trust me, I know. I maimed Veigar for a round 4 months and picked up on his weaknesses and strengths. You forgot to mention how he gets countered by champions with revives (Veigar and Yorick).

Yeah good point, I forgot to mention that anyone with a GA, Aatrox, Anivia, or Yorick really mess with him too.

Hard PenetratorFeb 3, 20151 votes

You whine about champion with ~5% pick rate and ~48% win rate. Wow, just wow.

You should also look up what "Toxic" in LoL means because I am pretty sure you misused this word.

AerialBladeFeb 3, 20151 votes

"wow, just wow". Something wrong with him being low pickrate, yet I complain? IN MY OPINION, he is one of the shittiest designs in LoL. Downvote me all you want, his design won't change from a shitty point and click nuke bot into anything better. He isn't oppressive, just annoying and extremely hard to deal with if he has his ult (mobility won't matter when its shoot q and r, and they die. No missing those abilities.)

Hard PenetratorFeb 4, 20151 votes

There are ways to deal with veigar. He is much easier to counter than lets say fed Kayle. I will tell you one simple thing. Its really hard to see obvious weaknesses of certain champions if you don't play them against strong champions and experienced players.

KingsgraveFeb 2, 20151 votes

5.3 has barely been deployed on PBE. Just wait.

Hard PenetratorFeb 3, 20151 votes

I would like to say that I am sure they will find a way to make Veigar even cooler and still fun to play but Riots Balance Team recent decisions are really hard to understand by regular player.

They have a lot of heat on them right now. Ppl want them to work on 20 different things at one time so quality of changes is proportionally lower. Veigar is simple champion with simple kit, if he won't be able to kill efficiently post 6 no one will ever play him again.

At least Veigar is on their radar and its pretty rare case considering how unpopular he is.

Stevev45Feb 3, 20151 votes

Reworks are about removing/reducing burst damage. So that will happen. They might also lower the stun duration, because they don't like long stuns.

They will probably lower the cooldown on q to compensate or make the w delay shorter.

I personally think hey should lower the cooldown on Dark Mater by 2 seconds at all levels, and Baleful Strike by 1 second at all levels, and call it a day.