AD champs get Maw, deaths dance, pd, steraks etc. Ap champs get zhonyas

2rLieiOtXD·May 18, 2016·127 votes·6,317 views

Seems reasonable

209 Comments

yukumariMay 18, 201664 votes

The thing is Ap champs also get tons of defensive items like ones that give health such as rod, lisandres, and Crystal Sceptre in addition to Zhonya's. Plus you guys also get ap items that also give you Mr. Ad champs can't get an offensive Armor item, with the exception of sunfire cape, (which hardly counts as offensive since it doesn't really give you ad)

Serpents EmbraceMay 18, 201611 votes

Sterak's Gage and Black Cleaver are pretty good AD / Health option. Maw of Malmortius is far better than any AP/MR item. It's true they left a gap with AD/Armor but that's probably for the best if you remember the last item that offered both. Dark times.

Honestly I don't know why Death's Dance got to stay when Will of the Ancients could not. They fill the same niche on champions that function similarly, just with different scaling.

Battlecast SonaMay 18, 201612 votes

it's because Vladimir doesn't exist as an AD champion and there's not an AD champion focused around healing to be unhealthy with the inclusion of Death's Dance.

Will of the Ancients was a targeted change because the item couldn't exist without being shitty specifically because Vlad existed. Death's Dance doesn't have the same problem, so it can exist (also spellvamp has the issue of being generally useful on very specific champs, while Death's Dance is more useful overall because most ADs have at least 1 high damage AD nuke and also get lifesteal on AAs).

My eeeeelMay 18, 201610 votes

What are you talking about? Aatrox Darius Also, just give any AD champion item 1053 , compare with vlad who heals more on minion. Vlad sustain nerf was just ridiculous. Even aatrox doesn't use up 40% of max hp on his combo.

Pika FoxMay 18, 20168 votes

And Aatrox was nerfed to hell because of it. Fact of the matter is, most ADs use lifesteal and arent broken and gutted in doing so, very few mages used spellvamp and were stuck being balanced around it being itemized, so it was easier to just remove the items when the main user was reworked.

Toru ItaiMay 18, 20163 votes

Atmas impaler... So good on Melee ADC sion.

Yuumi or LoseMay 18, 201624 votes

Not to mention the addition of GLP and Protobelt. Idk what more you would want. AP itemization helped spew out beefier mages imo.

YoungFarmerMay 18, 201617 votes

{quoted}

The thing is Ap champs also get tons of defensive items like ones that give health such as rod, lisandres, and Crystal Sceptre in addition to Zhonya's. Plus you guys also get ap items that also give you Mr. Ad champs can't get an offensive Armor item, with the exception of sunfire cape, (which hardly counts as offensive since it doesn't really give you ad)

The thing is I always noticed is as you acquire more health items like item 3027 item 3116 item 3151 you start to in turn take 15% more damage from ad champions because of item 3036

45134558_DELMay 18, 20163 votes

AD Champs can utilize lifesteal. Armor doesn't mean much if you have LS and your opponent doesn't. And remember: they just removed spellvamp from the game so most AP champs no longer have a way to get that health back, other than by stacking AP/HP items--and even that only helps so much.

RiviniMay 18, 201612 votes

{quoted}

The thing is Ap champs also get tons of defensive items like ones that give health such as rod, lisandres, and Crystal Sceptre in addition to Zhonya's.

Wow, a few AP items that give some health. Whoopity-doo! Mages certainly won't melt when AD champions deal true damage due to lack of meaningful armor items for AP and all the armor pen options available!

Also, this exists: item 3036

Speaking of which, isn't it just so cool how AD champions get item 3036 item 3033 , while AP champions only get item 3135 which does nothing extra? Like, how creative and fair is that?

Wait, so you're saying AD champions don't get any AD+health items?

item 3022 item 3071 item 3748 item 3078

item 3053 Health + auto-shield for additional temporary health.

item 3156 Also has temporary health automatically triggered. (can't have AD mains thinking outside of their mindless right-clicking.)

item 3040 At least requires user input and timing.

Yes, mages have item 3157 , which like Seraph's requires input and timing from the user. Nothing says safety like having the enemy team gather around your body in stasis and waiting to burst you! I guess for what it's worth, no AD champions have AP scalings to make use of from Zhonya's if they ever needed the active, like for countering Rengar, right? Right?

Plus you guys also get ap items that also give you Mr.

item 3001

My word, the variety! Plus any mage can certainly benefit from Abyssal's passive! Mages didn't need the meager MR from Athene's, so it's good to give that item to supports. Why would we want to have more than 1 option? I mean, that'd be crazy talk!

I guess it's fair that AD champions for sure don't even have 1 AD+MR ite-

item 3156 item 3139

...

Ad champs can't get an offensive Armor item

item 3742 item 3025

Also, item 3157 totally isn't a niche item now and 70 AP is definitely more than enough to work with. AP scaling is extremely OP, you know.

Jokes and sarcasm aside, AD champions have it so good in this game now, it's really not funny. It feels bad playing AP most of the time.

UPfreelyMay 18, 20168 votes

Ad champs can't get an offensive Armor item, with the exception of sunfire cape, (which hardly counts as offensive since it doesn't really give you ad)

Ezreal item 3025

Slamurai JackMay 18, 201632 votes

AD gets item 3156 item 3053 item 3812 item 3046 . AP gets item 3157 item 3027 item 3116 item 3001 . What's the problem again?

Darkslayer85May 18, 20164 votes

Turn this item 3070 into this item 3003 . Evolve that pokemon into this pokemon. item 3040

MazariamontiMay 18, 201611 votes

item 3025 item 3022

Slamurai JackMay 18, 201617 votes

{quoted}

item 3151 item 3152 item 3040

MazariamontiMay 18, 201610 votes

I see your item 3151 and raise you a item 3030 .....wait a minute

elon wątrobaMay 18, 20162 votes

Does anyone buy mallet?

billxxMay 18, 20163 votes

I do!

PoskeMay 18, 20162 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=exFEzpr7,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-05-18T10:45:00.873+0000)

AD gets . AP gets . What's the problem again?

they also have shimitar and blackcleaver

RiviniMay 18, 20169 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=exFEzpr7,comment-id=0004,timestamp=2016-05-18T10:45:00.873+0000)

AD gets . AP gets . What's the problem again?

You really want to compare AD vs. AP defense itemization?

Let's take a look at all the items that provide damage for each damage type while also providing defensive stats/passives, shall we?

AD: item 1055 item 3812 item 3022 item 3025 item 3156 item 3139 item 3742 item 3046 item 3146 item 3053 item 3071 item 3072 item 3748 item 3078 item 3074 Because health regen. item 3091 Because right-clickers use this, who naturally tend to be AD with very few exceptions.

If you want to include movement speed as being a defensive stat: item 3153 item 3147 item 3142 item 3094 item 3085 item 3087

Survivability purely via right-click sustain: item 1083 You should notice from this that literally every other (final) lifesteal item provides some extra form of survivability.

AP: item 1056 item 3001 item 3030 item 3152 item 3151 item 3027 item 3116 item 3040 item 3157 I'm not inclined to include item 3146 because it's way too niche for AP champions and only very few (mainly hybrid damage dealers) can actually benefit from it, like Akali.

If you want to include movement speed as being a defensive stat: item 1402 item 3285 item 3100

The following items, while providing both AP and defensive stats (or active passive), are support-centric and not intended for mages or even most other AP champions to use: item 3092 item 2301 item 3504 item 3174 item 3060 item 3050

The overwhelming disparity in items should be pretty clear, both in the number of options available and what each item provides to the player.

Now you can see the problem. Now you can see how incredibly unfair the game is to AP champions.

Biff ManlyMay 19, 20162 votes

Isn't it misleading to separate AP carry items from AP support items, while still leaving all AD items together regardless of intended class?

I mean, come on.

RiviniMay 19, 20166 votes

[{quoted}](name=Biff Manly,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=exFEzpr7,comment-id=000400040000,timestamp=2016-05-19T00:02:50.247+0000)

Isn't it misleading to separate AP carry items from AP support items, while still leaving all AD items together regardless of intended class?

I mean, come on.

Fiora Excusez-moi, I may be ze squishy, but I like my item 3053 , item 3748 and item 3071 .

Jax Yeah, I don't know how I fought without item 3742 and item 3053 all my life. Jax They... give me so much to work with... {tear of joy}

Riven item 3071 isn't even a sword and I've been abusing its tankiness, power, armor shredding and endless speed boosts! Riven And so much CDR... Riven Oh god, that feeling... Riven When you have no resource to manage and abilities with already low cooldowns... Riven This item is legal, right? Riven I'd rather not be also exiled from League.

Ezreal I know what you mean, Riven. Ezreal Mages don't have an item that compares to The Black Cleaver. Ezreal Heck, half of our items are miles beyond what they get. Ezreal I'm glad I've returned as a marksman... Ezreal {hugs} item 3025

MasterYi You know, I've been-

Okay, that's enough, champs. I think Biff gets the point now that all AD champions have been utilizing all these items in one way or another with efficiency.

Cassiopeia Hello, there.

Hm?

Cassiopeia I jussst bought item 3504

Uhh... why?

Cassiopeia Can't I use thisss well?

No, not really. Mages don't have the luxury of options, I'm afraid. Besides, you can't heal or shield your allies anyway, so the passive is completely wasted.

Cassiopeia Ssso why is Jax buying item 3742 ? No AD, no attack ssspeed, no-

Okay, first, stop with the drawn out "s" sound. You know you don't normally talk like that and it's getting annoying.

Cassiopeia :(

You're not truly a snake. Remember the beautiful woman you once were.

Cassiopeia O-Ohhh... {blushing}

Jax can get that item because;

AD champions are all inherently right-clickers and will typically have armor pen, making the passive damage bonus hurt even more.
The slow allows for more rapid, mana-free attacks before the target can get away.
As a quick, AD right-clicker, Jax can still pump out more DPS than a mage with 3 Rabadon's despite going tanky.
Mobility is OP.

Cassiopeia Well! That doesn't sound fair!

I know, right?

Cassiopeia What if I got item 3091 , then?

Cass, are you a right-clicker?

Cassiopeia N-No... But I have my Twin Fang attack! That's about as fast as marksmen attacks, isn't it?

Well, yes, but Wit's End won't do anything for that. You're not going to be using your basic attacks much at all, if you could even fit them in while you're spamming Twin Fang.

Cassiopeia Since you put it that way... And... I can't use Twin Fang forever like marksmen can with their basic attacks...

Mana?

Cassiopeia Mana...

That's troubling for sure.

Vayne {snickers}

Cassiopeia ಠ_ಠ Oh, wait! item 3115 It has AP and CDR! Well?

...

Cassiopeia :|

We just went over this, Cass. You're not a right-clicker.

Cassiopeia item 3060 ?

Better, but still no. That doesn't give enough AP to make you relevant. Leave it for the support or the tryhard Banner/Zz'rot top laner.

Cassiopeia item 3174 ?

Not for mages anymore.

Cassiopeia item 3092 ?

Nerfed, in the wrong way mind you, because it gave mages variety.

Cassiopeia ... item 3068 ?

Are you trolling me now?

Cassiopeia IT DOES MAGIC DAMAGE!

IT'S A TANK ITEM! You also shouldn't be getting that close to the enemy anyway, so the passive won't help your damage output!

Cassiopeia But Jax gets to have his Dead Man's Plate...

Cass...

Cassiopeia Forget it! This is stupid! I have to stick with the same handful of items for every match, no matter what! If I don't, I'm useless! It's just so... arrgh!

Pretty much, yes. Deviating at all from your core build will result in an unfavorable outcome in the vast majority of cases. You can't be tanky, full damage or some mix of both and expect the same result.

item 3070 Cassiopeia But why? Why are all the AD champions given so much freedom of choice while maintaining viability?

Sadly, we may never know.

KnoyleMay 19, 20162 votes

http://rs1073.pbsrc.com/albums/w397/conchord91/clapping.gif~c200

McKeifusMay 19, 20162 votes

item 3144 item 3153 item 3072 item 3074 . You missed a spot, but I gotchu.

ltmetalMay 18, 201611 votes

AD/AS/Crit + Defense: item 3071 item 3812 item 3022 item 3156 item 3139 item 3046 item 3053 item 3748 item 3078 item 3091 (10 total)

AP + Defense: item 3001 item 3174 item 3060 item 3030 item 3152 item 3151 item 3027 item 3116 item 3050 item 3157 (10 total)

If you discount Trinity Force because nobody builds it for the defense, Wit's End because it's a noob trap, and Banner and Zeke's because they are support items, it still sums up. The mage update really evened things out.

DragonSlayrDianaMay 18, 20165 votes

Athene's is also a support item with its rework :/

My eeeeelMay 18, 20163 votes

And should include GLP-800 as noob trap and abyssal late game not efficient due to dissynergy with void.

Mister SupportMay 18, 201610 votes

Then black cleaver is noon trap because it doesn't synergize with last whisper items.

PB4UAMEMay 18, 20164 votes

Goddamn, I swear nobody knows how resistances work in this game.

First percentage reduction (a la black cleaver) is applied, then flat reduction (AS), then percentage penetration (LW, VS) then flat pen.

Scaling percent reduct and percent pen works a lot better than flat reduct then percent pen.

10TicklerMay 18, 20163 votes

Athene's is really a Support item now

LynXerfMay 18, 201610 votes

Someone who builds item 3156 item 3053 item 3812 item 3046 is a bruiser not a glass cannon AD champ.

If an AP wants do do a similar thing they go item 3157 item 3027 item 3116 item 3089 and become a bruiser AP champ.

Or to go full bruiser AP go item 3157 item 3068 item 3151 item 3116 item 3029 item 3111 !

SpoofghoulMay 18, 20165 votes

gonna need more cdr m8

ForgiveColourMay 18, 20167 votes

Retarded gameplay post is retarded

ModCaptainMårvelousMay 18, 20166 votes

So I guess we're just discounting Seraphs? Banner of Command? Rylais/Liandries? Rod of Ages? GPL-500? Not to mention stuff like Abyssal and Protobelt.

It seems reasonable because it is. Not to mention you left out how actual big ticket MR items aren't nearly as good as big ticket AD items. Banshees/SV don't hold a candle to Deadmans/Sunfire/IBG when you look at pure value.

Gnart Even CloseMay 18, 20165 votes

they also get RoA, liandry's, rylai's, abyssal, etc

Meep ManMay 18, 20164 votes

I think he's referring to items with specific mechanics to reduce damage besides just flat out boosting your defenses.

He still forgot item 3040

GigaPubeMay 19, 20165 votes

who are you fooling OP? are you just salty about a recent mid game where you fed to the hexdrinker zed as teemo? you just listed every AD item that you know of with defensive stats and you only listed 1 with AP.....you think we dont know about all those other items? who the hell even upvoted this tripe. what are you even trying to accomplish here? another abyssal scepter? do you want a randuins with a dead mans plate active and with 100AP? you want an item that lets you flash 2000 units toward your base so you can launch your ziggs bombs from further away without getting engaged on? lrn2kite m8

Mister SupportMay 18, 20164 votes

And rylais, laundrys, hextech glp-800. Hextech rocket belt, rod of ages, seraph's embrace, and abyssal scepter.

really nice guy May 18, 20164 votes

Bruhh. I don't get how people can say mages have it out for them as well.

As a mage, You REQUIRE Rabadons and Void staff (Or Abyssal replacement) + Boots.

So you only have 3 open item slots for defensive stats.

UNLIKE ADs, where you don't have any type of "rabadon" counterpart unless you think infinity edge is..then you have no knowledge of the game.

PB4UAMEMay 18, 20167 votes

TBF, given the quartic scaling nature of ADCs damage (quintic if you buy a BotRK, sextic if you also build a bloodrazer, septic if you are a vayne/kog maw building those items) an IE actually gives more damage than a Rabadon's could ever hope to.

[note, I'm technically using improper notation, as I refer to damage scalars in terms of polynomial degrees, rather than multiplicative variables for a multivariate function]

NazZomLordMay 19, 20164 votes

OKAY! Well i mean mean, AD champs also dont get large HP items that allow getting over 3k health by just building damage utility. item 3027 item 3116 item 3151 item 3152 item 3030 . All of these items give a good chunk of health. And AP mana heavy mana users get to use item 3040 which allows a quite large shield on activation. And AD champs are only allowed Maw OR Steraks now. And AD dont have AD plus armor item. So id say full AP having a rather good Armor item id say they should be a but happy.

FiddlesOnTheRoofMay 18, 20163 votes

And yet they all have comparable win rates

CaítlynMay 18, 20162 votes

And ADCs get nothing. item 3046 hardly qualifies as "defense".

BeldairMay 18, 201610 votes

well adc's weren't meant to build defensive (unless your Graves...cursed shotgun).

They were built for pure damage.

FreshAsFebrezeMay 18, 20166 votes

Seems to be a thought process going around that ADCs need to maintain their damage while also being a juggernaut. A lot of people don't understand the glass cannon analogy.

BeldairMay 18, 20165 votes

Too true.

If only ppl realized the devestation a glass cannon Sivir can do XD

charcharmunroMay 18, 20165 votes

"Oh, you're clumped together? Lemme press W and right-click ONE of you."

Onkel MalteMay 18, 20162 votes

I think LoL always missed an Item that gives MR and Flat mana as an equivalent to Iceborn Gauntlet or Frozen Heart.

As well as I always missed a minimal defensive option for ADCs against AD Assassins.

TeklmMay 18, 20169 votes

Banshee's used to have Mana and MR. I think they removed it because Ryze. 10/10 champion design.

Mister SupportMay 18, 20162 votes

It's been stated that an item that gives armor and ad would not be healthy, since it would protect against more than just champions, it would also protect against towers, dragon, baron, monsters, and minions. Also it would make life steal insanely more effective.