Do tanks need nerfs?

Nobody Likes Me··6 votes·880 views

I'm not going to actually answer this question because I don't know if this is the correct solution, but I will tell you the problem.
From my 4 years of playing Toplane I have learned that there is a sort of triangle of balance in Toplane. Which follows this: Lane Bullies > Bruisers > Tanks. What this means, is -Fighters are shut down by lane bullies (Jayce, Pantheon, Teemo, ect.) -Lane bullies are kept in place by tanks who are able to withstand their damage in lane (Maokai, Malphite, Ornn, ect.) -Tanks are kept in place by bruisers who deal dps damage (Irelia, Jax, Aatrox, ect.)

The issue arises when one class is no longer equipped to shut down the class that they are supposed to counter. And that is the case with many fighters right now. Tanks are beating fighters in extended trades which is not what is supposed to happen. Tanks are supposed to be able to win by trading only when their cooldowns are up and then disengaging. The fighter is supposed to win if they get an extended trade because the fighter's autoattacks will be much more impactful than the tanks. That's not how its going right now. I lost a fight against a sion as jax today, he missed his ult, I was able to leap to him and get behind him and successfully dodge all 3 q's that he threw that fight, and break his shield, while autoattacking him the entire time. I guess that his bambi's cinder item 3751 and the base damage on his e, and arcane comet was too much for me.

There are many things that could have indirectly contributed to this issue. Is cooldown reduction too available and fighters aren't winning extended trades because tanks are able to cast another full rotation of abilities? Are fighter items too expensive? Is it the lack of a keystone specifically intended for fighter champs? Do tanks need nerfs directly to them or to their items. Do bruisers need to have higher base damage or better scaling? I don't know the solution but I definitely have experienced this problem. I am only in silver and I am no expert at this game, but when you dodge almost every ability and still end up losing the trade, I guarantee you will start raising questions.

10 Comments

WiegrafOfValor6 votes

The problem is that Bruisers should be the ones to deal with Tanks, but somehow Riot thought that squishy ADCs should be the Tank buster..

Fighters and Juggernauts should have more items with % armor reduction and % max HP dmg.

Teridax683 votes

My personal opinion is that tanks mainly need a power shift, not nerfs specifically, but so do some fighters. The issue with tanks is that, over time, they've experienced significant increases to their damage, mainly with buffs to their bases and much more target-agnostic damage, but have also lost a fair amount of durability in the late game. This has ended up making them more similar to fighters, whose niche has always been that of the tanky damage-dealing class, creating an even greater overlap between the two classes. Tanks currently have the advantage right now because, unlike fighters, they can go for full defensive builds and still deal decent damage, whereas fighters that try the same (and are pushed to do so due to the high amount of damage in the game) end up taking and dealing less damage. In turn, this has caused several divers to go for Lethality instead and turn into assassins, namely Wukong and Jarvan IV.

Because of this, I think tanks really need to lose damage, even if this hurts their waveclear. If tanks really need to clear waves, which I don't think is nearly as much the case as several players claim (tanks aren't intended to contribute damage), then they could receive amplified damage on their bread-and-butter damage source against non-champions, but otherwise they shouldn't be able to deal significant damage to champions unless they are specifically designed to do so. Moreover, target-agnostic damage is not something tanks should be given in abundance, because they aren't meant to out-duel fighters. In fact, target-agnostic damage is a more appropriate strengths on fighters, not tanks, and as such I think we need to stop balancing tanks as if they were fighters.

Another problem the OP mentions is that of CDR creep, and that I agree has caused many tanks to become significantly more frustrating, as the uptime on all of their CC has drastically increased. This has affected fighters especially, since the class is most vulnerable to crowd control, but also because a lot of tank CC is not put into displacement, which ignores Tenacity completely. Because of this, I would also want to tone down crowd control in view of what has essentially translated to a 33 to 67% increase in CC uptime. However, I think this should be implemented on all classes, not just tanks, and I think fighters in particular need to lose a lot more CC in their kit, because otherwise we'll just go back to the days of Seasons 2-3 where most fighters were just better tanks. Both tanks and fighters should be durable, but tanks should specialize in CC while fighters should specialize in damage: as such, either class should only have access to the other's strength if they are deliberately meant to have some overlap, and not because they "need" the effect to work (they usually don't).

One problem I'd like to see addressed, if tanks get changed, is that of tanky itemization: the ongoing problem has been that tanky items provide too much raw durability, to the point where many damage champions have been able to purchase the stat and succeed with it, with many unhealthy side-effects. Additionally, one other problem I think is related to this is that tanks have a) become less durable due to tanky item nerfs, and b) still lack skill expression compared to many other champions, in part because they still end up turning into walking sandbags of health and resists. Fighters also suffer from this problem, to some extent. Because of this, I think Riot will inevitably have to change this by placing the power of tankiness onto kit scalings, rather than solely onto items. Making tanks more vulnerable if they don't use their defensive effects properly, but rewarding them with much more durability if they play correctly, would add much more skill expression to the class, and so in a manner that would also make players memorize the champion's own play patterns, and not just rely on general game knowledge. Additionally, if tanky items were nerfed, but tanks and fighters had health/resist scalings added or increased on their kits, tanky itemization would not longer be attractive to other classes (who therefore wouldn't be forced to snowball as hard off of damage items), but would still work on whichever champions it's intended for.

The TL;DR to this, imo, is that I believe that tanks should receive nerfs to their damage, because they're generally not meant to output it in significant amounts, and to their CC, because it's crept up to unhealthy amounts with the increasing commonness of CDR. However, I think individual tanks and fighters need to have their innate durability increased in relation to their defensive purchases, so that they can express their own tankiness in a more skillful manner, and therefore get to become more durable under the right circumstances. Additionally, I think there needs to be a general power seep, which should affect the damage, CC and even utility of many more classes than just tanks.

Sire Hippington2 votes

they've experienced significant increases to their damage,

sorry, but what? Tanks for most of it lost overall damage in their kit, though it shifted more to % damage which is bad for bruisers with their hp-focused itemisation. In s7, they overall nerfed tank damage, especially their ap-scaleings, and buffed their CC(alot)

Runes rework with the missing mr and damage from keystones probably pushed their damage a bit to high at first, but since the aftershock nerfs it's not a big deal.

I really don't get why people still complain about tanks and their damage, they don't perform overly well in soloQ nor in pro, their average damage per game is by far the lowest for their position, and they are well beatable in lane.

i'd understanf if the complains were about their insane CC, like Zac haveing 3 forms of hard cc that can't be cleansed or reduced by tenacity...but the damage? Their damage is really not high right now.

In terms of skill expression for tanks, less spamable hard CC so you really have to think about then and on whom to throw your skills would help. Though overall less damage(not just on tanks, on EVERYONE) would also help, cause right now if you get a lead or reach late, you can just engage on the first target in sight and blow it up duering cc, even if it's the tank.

Teridax682 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dkfw25fe,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-02-28T18:53:26.073+0000)

sorry, but what? Tanks for most of it lost overall damage in their kit, though it shifted more to % damage which is bad for bruisers with their hp-focused itemisation. In s7, they overall nerfed tank damage, especially their ap-scaleings, and buffed their CC(alot)

Runes rework with the missing mr and damage from keystones probably pushed their damage a bit to high at first, but since the aftershock nerfs it's not a big deal.

Increases in CDR, new releases, reworks, and direct increases to the base damage of several tanks (look at how Nautilus got his Q damage buffed just to keep up, for example) have all contributed to an environment where tanks output too much damage overall. The Aftershock nerfs toned down some, but not all of that excess.

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dkfw25fe,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-02-28T18:53:26.073+0000)

I really don't get why people still complain about tanks and their damage, they don't perform overly well in soloQ nor in pro, their average damage per game is by far the lowest for their position, and they are well beatable in lane.

This is demonstrably not true, as literally just the last patch noted that several fighters were dealing too little damage, while tanks were dealing damage in excess. Even now, out of the 10 highest win rate top laners, only 4 are actual fighters, and the top 2 are tanks.

[{quoted}](name=Sire Hippington,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=dkfw25fe,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-02-28T18:53:26.073+0000)

In terms of skill expression for tanks, less spamable hard CC so you really have to think about then and on whom to throw your skills would help. Though overall less damage(not just on tanks, on EVERYONE) would also help, cause right now if you get a lead or reach late, you can just engage on the first target in sight and blow it up duering cc, even if it's the tank.

I can agree with both of this, and in the very post you responded to, I specified how many more classes besides just tanks could afford to lose damage, as I believe there's too much damage overall in the game right now. I'm not saying tanks are the only champions out there dealing too much damage, far from it, but the fact remains that tanks still often do output damage comparable to that of fighters (Darius top deals 17k damage on average per match, whereas Sion top deals 17.1k average damage, for example).

Taliyah Rocks2 votes

Tanks are only as strong as their backline. "Tank meta" only happens because adcs are too strong right now, and tanks are the best class at keeping danger away from them (besides supports)

Obviously it also happens that bruisers are shitty right now, but that's because of the lack of decent runes for them.

Ahristocats2 votes

Sion: Yes Others: No

Arin1 Has 70% win rate on aatrox in master tier on 59 games atm when people think tanks beat him with bramble vest tanks do not need nerfs, people just bitch about them

Sun Wu Ryuumoku2 votes

They need to shift tanks power IMO. They dont need to deal so much.

Rexxiee2 votes

Yes.

And tabi +bramble vest + bamis are complete auto win cancer in lane.

Sire Hippington1 votes

I really don#t have that impression. i still feel quite able to win lane vs tanks as bruiser, especially if i get extendet trades. However, it is harder to get those trades and mostly, if you try to force them their jungler will be there to punish you. For me, the main reason why i have a hard time as bruiser is how powerfull the early jungle is. The other issue is the game pace we have currently. Bruisers used to pull ahead in the lane and carry that advantage into a strong midgame befor falling off late. However, midgame hardly exists anymore and laneing has become shorter and less about the 1v1, so bruisers have a hard time useing their advantages to actually impact the game. This means tanks only need to survive the early(which also has become easier) without giveing up to much and then quickly outscale bruisers for teamfights. The fact that bruiser tiems don't fit the game pace at all doesn't help, they are rather expensive and yet don't scale to well into late, makeing it even harder to get a meaningfull powerspike that lasts long enough to have an impact, so mostly you either win lane hard and get your expensive gear early enough, which is pretty hard to do vs tanks, or you fall off befor you could really use your powerspike.

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