Zoe's fun, but this is just unfair...

Börky·Nov 24, 2017·86 votes·10,857 views

I'd assume it'd be a little too early to call myself a Zoe main, but from the actions and atrocities I've committed with this Disney chick, I'd say it's safe to assume that she needs a hard nerf for 2 of her defining abilities. Mainly her Q and E.

To make it simple, she snowballs to hell. Most Zoe players max Q first and for good reason. At Q lvl1, she can already deal, at most, 200 damage (plus AA passive ~30-35 ap so really, 235 ap). At Q lvl 5, at maximum, she can damage an enemy champion, depending on the build, over 1000 ap. The cooldown is also relatively low. If you ever play a match against a good Zoe, she will be able to 100-0 any squishy and possibly 3/4-half the hp of any other champion with a little more meat.

Next, her E. it's basically a Morgana Q, but stronger. Damage is mediocre, but the stun lasts for an eternity. It's meant to let Zoe do her full combo, but by the time you get hit by the damn bubble, her Q is flying at you. When the stun actually begins, you're already dead from the massive pain being inflicted by a firefly.

Her concept is great, I really love playing her, but even when I play her, someone who enjoys having all the power and the control over the game, thinks it's too much for one champion to have. Being killed right when you get into the fight is never fun, especially when her Q is not even an ultimate. It really shouldn't be dealing this much damage. Same goes for her E, it's way too powerful, but in a utility sort of sense. I'm definitely not the only one who thinks this way. Please make a change to this and fast.

201 Comments

Smitty ManjensenNov 24, 201757 votes

Hmm, a champion that is fun to play but extremely op and toxic to play against, I wonder which designer does that remind me of.

Fisher No ChainsNov 24, 201723 votes

Not trying to defend CertainlyT, but she’s far from release Zyra/Yasuo/Kalista level of OP and toxic tbh

Perma CCNov 24, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fisher No Chains,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cvnFHEOO,comment-id=000a0000,timestamp=2017-11-24T14:25:22.747+0000)

Not trying to defend CertainlyT, but she’s far from release Zyra/Yasuo/Kalista level of OP and toxic tbh

Exactly... i feel like this is the first time he has made a character with actual counterplay. None of the current burst mages outside of zoe seem to have much counterplay to their full burst once they land their cc. Zoe is the only burst mage that has a CC that can be countered even after it hits.

ThryaleNov 24, 20171 votes

but Zoe's not a burst mage. she's a poke mage with pick potential.

Perma CCNov 25, 20172 votes

{quoted}

but Zoe's not a burst mage. she's a poke mage with pick potential.

Riot has confirmed that she is a burst mage.... They even said. We have a new "Burst mage" in the works when they showed the teaser for her with bubbles and shit. https://nexus.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/2017/10/champion-roadmap-october-2017/ there is the link. Riot confirming she is a burst mage.

ThryaleNov 25, 20173 votes

riot has been wrong about things in the past, and they are wrong about this now. Plain and simple. Zoe does not have a burst mage play style or spell cadence. she has a single high damage spell, a variable utility spell, and an unreliable CC spell.

but what really separates her from other burst mages is that she doesn't 'unload' a rotation on her target, but instead snipes ppl from odd angles. Which is much more consistent with a poke mage/ranged assassin playstyle.

Compared to an Annie or veigar who CC a target then unload 3 damaging abilities in short order for high burst in an attempt at securing the kill, Zoe might CC her target, but doesn't have to in order to land her high damage poke.

Zoe is much closer in design to old Nidalee, and old nid was a poke Mage with assassin like tendencies.

LordGeovanniNov 25, 20173 votes

release yasou was far weaker than Zoe with fare less toxic and all because yasou actually took time for players to learn and he was overbuffed the next couple patches

IivaitteNov 25, 20174 votes

I'm sure Zoe is strong. I'm just waiting for people to stop picking her in low elo games. I'm sure there are some skilled players in low elo but most do not have the skill required to play her consistently well.

Most Zoes I have managed to run into miss every Q and land her sleep on minions.

LordGeovanniNov 25, 20175 votes

zoe doesnt not take as much skill as people say you just have to cast her spells a couple of times to get a feel for it

InfinitexMortalNov 25, 20171 votes

It's easier than landing a Nidalee spear that's for sure

LordGeovanniNov 26, 20173 votes

just about the same and nids spears problem was how much damage it did but also the fact that you couldnt ever engage becuase it was up so often zoe has the same problem but all mages have that problem now with riot constanly buffing their cooldowns adcs have that problem because 1 crit does too much damage.

BisaknospNov 25, 20172 votes

aha

remember when it was nothing special to have a penta with yasuo?

DeadUnbornNov 24, 20177 votes

I have noticed that Certainly T always make his champs have "dull but powerful ults" while concentrating a lot of their power on their basic abilities.

Thresh hook and lantern Kalista passive jump and E smite Yasuo passive, W and E

Their ults are good for sure, but usually only serve to enhance or buff his characters core kit playstyle, which is in overdrive because of how much power budget is in the core kit. This leaves the characters sometimes with not as many windows of vulnerability (ult CD) which makes the characters good and versatile always.

Hypermobility is and issue too btw XD. Zoe is not hypermobile perse until you realize her W gives her a ton of movement speed and most of the items and summoners you pick up plus your ult for dodging/engaging will make you seem more mobile that at first you would thing

DeusVultNov 25, 20172 votes

Not saying that your wrong, but IMO CertainlyT just adds too much into kits. Thresh ult is still good in terms of damage and CC, whether disengaging or engaging, Kalista has the same 2 way street with her ult, and Yasuo ult is gamechangingly good, just depends on how many people he can suspend.

Also Darius has a huge ult in terms of power of his kit. But all in all, CertainlyT champs somehow make it past the approval of everyone else with kits loaded to the brim with power. There is never really a "filler" ability in their kits like there are with some other champions.

NymzoNov 24, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Hmm, a champion that is fun to play but extremely op and toxic to play against, I wonder which designer does that remind me of.

Couldn't say it better myself.

People lowered their guard when they released Warwick's rework, saying : ''Oh he changed now, give him a chance.''

In reality, he is only a great designer when he got restrictions otherwise he goes wild on the toxic design.

The Space CowboyNov 24, 20171 votes

He made jinx so he can do no wrong in my book. You don’t see any of his “op” champs at worlds anyway

SpecterVonBarenNov 25, 20174 votes

He made Darius, Thresh, Yasuo, Kalista and was one of three Rioter's to work on Zyra. Of his original creations, all have been abominations, usually overloaded too. Zoe is actually rather lacking in overloadedness though, thankfully.

InfinitexMortalNov 25, 20171 votes

Wasn't he the guy behind the Warwick rework. That's my favorite rework of all time, so fun to play as.

SpecterVonBarenNov 25, 20172 votes

Note that I said, "original creations" his reworks have actually been fairly fine, probably because he's got more constraints put on him.

DemainaNyxNov 24, 201723 votes

The biggest problem is that Zoe has 2 damage abilities. Assuming no one uses sums, she has no W unless she picked it up off a minion before the fight began. The only other champion that I can think of that has 2 damaging abilities is Soraka. Yeah, Zoe CAN possibly pick up a ton of things in a fight to use, but she can also have nothing.

So, to make up for that fact, her power is in her 2 damaging abilities, hence why she can 100-0 by landing an E + Q. I mean, Kha'zix Q is the reason he can pretty much 1v1 anyone, and yet no one says because it does more damage to isolated targets that is should be his ult.

NineTailedMysticNov 24, 20173 votes

Her W has a passive that procs off of her own Summoners as well. She also has a damage passive.

Fisher No ChainsNov 24, 20176 votes

Her W damage is kinda low and has a stupidly low range. It’s just a worse Ahri W.

Her damage passive is good, especially with Lich Bane, and it’s the only reason they could lower her Q damage, especially early game.

However, after some games with her, I am pretty sure that she’s far better than release Camille or Kalista or other abominations. Her Q is super hard to hit at max range and it’s telegraphed, if anything her E is just too reliable for what it does.

I’m also happy that a fucking BURST MAGE that actually bursts people exists again.

AhrisNov 24, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fisher No Chains,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cvnFHEOO,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-11-24T14:23:26.943+0000)

Her W damage is kinda low and has a stupidly low range. It’s just a worse Ahri W.

Her damage passive is good, especially with Lich Bane, and it’s the only reason they could lower her Q damage, especially early game.

However, after some games with her, I am pretty sure that she’s far better than release Camille or Kalista or other abominations. Her Q is super hard to hit at max range and it’s telegraphed, if anything her E is just too reliable for what it does.

I’m also happy that a fucking BURST MAGE that actually bursts people exists again.

Worse Ahri's w? It has more base damafe than ahri you know? And way more spammable in teamfights than Ahris. While also giving summoner spells.

How is that worse than Ahri's 7 flat sec cd w at rank 1? Lower base damage as well? Zoe can proc it a number of time while Ahri can only proc hers a lot less while having less base damage fhan hers as well.

ProjecLNov 24, 20175 votes

I literally never saw W deal any meaningful damage on Zoe. Especially cause you max it last. If you are within range of W as Zoe you are dead 99% of the time.

T4underboltNov 24, 201711 votes

Yeah dude. then lets make a champ that has only utility and defensive abilities but Q is a average speed moving skillshots but quite a long range and it deals 100% max hp as true dmg. It is fair because this champ has no other dmg abilties

AzadetheNov 24, 201715 votes

I'm sorry but there are tons of 1 hit snowballs, and Zoe's isn't the most accessible kit. Kha through EVERY elo is a 1 hit champ with almost 0 counterplay. Zoe has counterplay, and tells. Kha can kill you from up to 2000 range away, and in 2 skills, that refresh to kill someone else.

I know that's the instinct to have that no one should 1 shot, but a ton of champs do it now with very little counterplay: fed Vayne. Malhazar, Tristana, Fed Cait, Fed Zed.... Akali, Kha, Rengar, veigar .... they ALL pretty much 1 sec kill people, and most can do so even if the other people have vision on them and try to stay away. Even Shaco is getting to a 1 hit status now with the new runes.

Even a Fed Karma full AP can almost 1 shot people.... with literally 1 skill.

NineTailedMysticNov 24, 20175 votes

The thing is, is that Zoe can get true oneshots.

StupaflyNov 24, 20175 votes

{quoted}

The thing is, is that Zoe can get true oneshots.

Do these "true" one shots include two spells?

SSShutTheDuckUpNov 24, 20171 votes

When I tried her in PBE I could actually 100-0 the enemy Zoe just with a max range Q, though one should take this with a grain of salt, as it were Zoe vs Zoe custom games where we were just trying stuff. Also I believe her Q damage was nerfed before release, but the opportunity at least was there

TS MediaNov 24, 20173 votes

She can't one shot without her E or being stupidly fed. Don't lie..... when you R in you're already getting passive damage autos off as well.

i cant move wtfNov 25, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I know that's the instinct to have that no one should 1 shot, but a ton of champs do it now with very little counterplay: fed Vayne. Malhazar, Tristana, Fed Cait, Fed Zed.... Akali, Kha, Rengar, veigar .... they ALL pretty much 1 sec kill people, and most can do so even if the other people have vision on them and try to stay away. Even Shaco is getting to a 1 hit status now with the new runes.

The difference is none of those champs can also throw a morg stun with twice the range and with aoe zoning if it misses.

Bouncemaster ZacNov 24, 201712 votes

Her base damage is inexcusable tbh, and the cc plus several hundred bonus true damage on her E means if it hits you, you die. It's basically a Blitz hook without the mana and cooldown gating.

FedoranNov 24, 20175 votes

Except that her E gives you a second of warning to use any zhonyas, cleanse, dash, etc to get to safety unlike blitz hook or morgana Q.

SirsirNov 25, 20172 votes

...her E does true damage?

EDIT: Holy shit her E does true damage. That has to be the single most overloaded ability in League history

OtterlyLostNov 25, 20179 votes

My issue with her isn't that she's 1 shotting me. Its that she's CC'ing me to 1 shot me. :/ Yes, Kha'zix can 1 shot you. But he has to jump ontop of you to do it and you can actually flash and/or dash away because you're not CC'd. The E is honestly my biggest issue; why does she need CC that lasts two seconds? That's ridiculously long considering she can nuke you from half way across the lane.

Gives No LuxNov 24, 20178 votes

Zoe has 1 real damage ability and 1 CC. Her damage is AOE so it can't even benefit from single target effect runes. Missile speed is relatively low, every single one of her attacks is telegraphed unless she attacks from fog of war.

Sure, under the perfect set of circumstances Zoe can land a big damage spell but a three item ADC can be AFK and kill her (or any other mage) in 2 AAs if she ults within range.

By comparison Fizz has 4 damage abilities, better mobility and an invulnerability. Most assassins right now can out perform Zoe AND they can do it under your tower while taking less than 10% damage total.

She's on par with any other successful mage in pre-season. Not anywhere even close to the tier of AD assassins right now.

Handy Sandy Nov 24, 20177 votes

Then dodge her E or Q, simple

ThefrostyvikingNov 24, 20176 votes

So you have to have a 100% dodgerate or you die near instantly.

This is the kinda stuff Syndra got nerfed for, specifically her Q and W.

Think Zyra and malz also tooks hits.

Inner FlameNov 24, 20177 votes

Just saw the games played with Zoe in your account. (These are all of them).

1/5/3 1/4/1 0/4/4 0/6/1 1/10/2 2/4/10

There's not a single one where you went nearly positive, and you make a post complaining about how OP she is.
Even if you tell me that somehow there are other not shown games you played with her, the fact that you had this streak on a silver V account still makes a point.
When you talk about actions and atrocities that you committed with her, are you talking about against beginner bots?

MogarlNov 25, 20176 votes

Nidalee Nuclear spear heads. A totally toxic and infuriating thing to play against.

Let's put them back on a champion but have the champ revolve around them, genius.

V The Support VNov 24, 20174 votes

She is too easy to troll.

The frustrations of teammates immediately AAing a drowsy enemy, or stealing every balloon wielding minion...

General Esdeath Nov 25, 20174 votes

"I don't think CertainlyT will goof this one"

NTrumpWeTrustNov 25, 20174 votes

Just dodge her spear...wait

Z3SleeperNov 24, 20173 votes

My problem is the cooldown on her E late game. I was playing Urgot and she was literally just using it on me in teamfights to keep me asleep. Didn't damage me or anything, just kept hitting me with the cancer bubble and letting me sit til the moment I woke up again then she'd E me again.

It needs a longer cooldown later in the game. The ability is fine, the ability to completely shut down a single player for the entirety of a teamfight singlehandedly without killing them is beyond obnoxious.

No harsh nerf needed, just up the cooldown from 16-14 => 16 at all ranks.

WolfeurNov 24, 20172 votes

Congratulations, you lost against a mobile character as a juggernaut, she must be so OP, then.

Z3SleeperNov 24, 20172 votes

Not so much against her. It's not like we were 1v1'ing. I meant in 5v5 teamfights I couldn't do anything cuz I was permanently asleep.

WolfeurNov 24, 20172 votes

Take Legend: Tenacity and Mercury's Thread, then.

Z3SleeperNov 24, 20173 votes

I actually did have it. Didn't even consider that I had tenacity. That just makes it even more cancerous to think about considering i couldn't do anything even with tenacity.

Blackstone01Nov 24, 20172 votes

It's a 14 second CD max level with partial CD refresh if it hits (30% max level) and the sleep lasts 2 seconds. Wtf do you mean "couldn't do anything even with tenacity"? It's 2 seconds and is broken the moment you take damage.

TS MediaNov 24, 20178 votes

She's not mobile doe.