Warwick and Season 5

Mathlete864·Dec 10, 2014·3 votes·1,319 views

Anyone else feel like warwick has fallen into the same pit as Kassadin. First the cool downs were buffed on his ultimate, and no the damage is almost halved. Literally I mean RIOT is just doing everything they can to make Warwick useless. An intense win rate doesn't mean he is broken. There are many other champs with even higher win rates that you actually buffed recently. I mean, give the wolf a bone or something, his ultimate is really his only ganking tool. He is just a mediocre jungler now.

Opinions?

31 Comments

AtheosisXDec 10, 20142 votes

They definitely over-nerfed him. With the changes to Devourer and Skirmisher he probably would've been in a good place, but now he's going to be pretty bad. I was thinking of giving him a run now that he is no longer overpowered, but the nerf to his W makes me cringe since I know his already slow early clear rates are now going to be putrid. Oh and forget getting kills with ult anymore.

Agent2090Dec 10, 20142 votes

He was already in a good place, circumstance just made him powerful. But instead of just changing the circumstance, they decided to do that plus nerfing him. Definitely an overreaction in my opinion.

AMYS GRAVEDec 10, 20141 votes

they nerfed him because of his interaction with one item. that's stupid. now he has to take that item or just be weak as hell. an appropriate fix would have been

Skirmisher's Sabre RECIPE Hunter's Machete + 350 gold PASSIVE - CHALLENGING SMITE Smite can be cast on enemy champions, marking them for 6 seconds. While marked, you deal 18-69 bonus true damage to them on ~~hit~~ basic attacks, have vision of them, and reduce their damage to you by 20%. PASSIVE - JUNGLER Deal 45 magic damage on hit to monsters over 2 seconds and gain 10 health and 5 mana per second while in combat with monsters

problem solved without nerfing anything or anyone into the ground.

EffectFXDec 10, 20141 votes

The "on hit" basically means basic attacks or abilities that apply basic attacks (On hit, see GP Q, EZ Q, WW R, Fiora R). So your fix does nothing.

AMYS GRAVEDec 11, 20141 votes

the change is that skirmishers does not apply to abilities that apply on hit effects. basic attacks are a subset of on hit, but on hit is not a subset of basic attacks. my change works exactly as intended. so GP Q etc... apply on hit effects, but do not apply skirmishers effects since skirmishers is no longer an on hit item it's an on basic attack only item.

EffectFXDec 11, 20141 votes

No. If it an ability or effect (excluding critical strike except in a few specific cases) is applied by a basic attack then it is an on hit effect. This is universal within this particular game an nothing will change that. Even if Riot changed how the mechanics of the smite so that works on basic attacks but isn't an on hit effect (which is just silly), all your change would do is vastly limit the amount of champions who could use skirmishers well. The change riot has made is good as is.

AMYS GRAVEDec 11, 20141 votes

this is how it has always worked, but that doesn't mean that's how it always has to work. maybe this idea for skirmishers wouldn't work but if a champion is nerfed because of an item that is a poor design choice, because now that champion must take that item in order to be viable and that limits that champions in game choices and limiting "strategic diversity" for that champion. if you look at warwick without the item he was in a good place, which means he was not the problem. it was his interaction with the item that needed reworking because yes it was sickening to watch his burst.

as far as other champions not being able to use skirmishers well after a change like this, i think there are plenty attack speed junglers who can use it well. if they can't use that item well then they can use stalkers blade well for dueling, they can still use trailblazers well, etc... other junglers still have options, now warwick does not.

an alternate nerf that wouldn't be so over the top would be to change his ult to not apply on hit effects. there are plenty of things that could have solved this problem more elegantly.

EffectFXDec 11, 20141 votes

Warwick is currently being looked at for a rework, he's ALWAYS been at the edge of borderline op and meh because of how his whole kit functions (sabre + new jungle just pushed him over the edge). Because of the change skirmirsher's works now he no longer has to buy it.

And that's the thing, is you're limiting it to attack speed champions. In it's current form any champion who has smite can use it just as well as any other. Stalker's is VASTLY inferior in terms of dueling even in patch 4.21. Warwick has options.

Removing the on hit-effects from his ult... I have a better idea, how about you stop trying to balance. I like that idea more.

AMYS GRAVEDec 11, 20141 votes

he's ALWAYS been at the edge of borderline op and meh

if warwick has been borderline op then why hasn't he been picked at worlds since season 1?

Because of the change skirmirsher's works now he no longer has to buy it.

but because of warwick's nerf now he needs this item just to be balanced.

In it's current form any champion who has smite can use it just as well as any other.

that's just not true, fiora can use it vastly better than soraka, and that's not a problem. different champions can make better use of some items. it's like saying that randuins isn't designed well because it doesn't help all champions equally well.

Removing the on hit-effects from his ult... I have a better idea,

oh i have another idea, change it from 5 to 3 attacks while leaving the total damage output the same. that way it lowers the broken synergy with the item. see there are plenty of ways to balance the situation without removing warwick as a viable laner.

I have a better idea, how about you stop trying to balance. I like that idea more.

no need to be a condescending a-hole about it. i'm just trying to make a point and you're ignoring the argument altogether to insult me for no reason.

EffectFXDec 11, 20141 votes

I didn't say borderline OP, I said the edge. He has been picked in pro play before, but he has 3 major reasons he wouldn't see a lot of play. 1. High mana costs with a low mana pool, this specifically hurts his laning. 2. Low gank pressure until level 6. 3. The constant possibility of a lane swap occuring, he does have strong 1v1 match ups, but his 2v1 isn't that reliable. Not really a problem in solo queue.

He doesn't.

No, soraka can use it just as well as fiora. 60-162 (based on level) true damage over 3 seconds. It's even in riots little bit there

it's weighted so heavily in favor of dudes who can hit you in the face as fast as possible. Given our goal with the new jungle items was to open up different playstyles, we're balancing it out in favor of more champions.

Smite isn't just any item and there's ZERO reason it should be locked to a particular scaling.

No. Stop trying these completely ridiculous changes. Your changes will hurt warwick more than the nerf to his base damage. You do realize that it applies his passive, wit's end, devourer and blade of the ruined king right, all common warwick items? Just one of these items has the potential to completely deal more damage than what was lost in base damage, especially as the game lengthens out. Even losing 2 hits will be a vastly larger nerf than losing 100/85/70 damage. To give you context, alone warwick's passive alone deals 110/180/280 damage with 5 hits (assuming you already had 4 stacks) each time he gets a level in his ult. Your suggest change would remove a potential 44/72/112 damage because of his passive alone.

Try actually thinking about what you're typing before hitting the post button and maybe I wouldn't have a reason to insult you.

AMYS GRAVEDec 11, 20141 votes

He has been picked in pro play before,

he hasn't been picked or even banned in worlds since season 1. he may see occasional competitive light but he certainly isn't a common pick.

No, soraka can use it just as well as fiora.

right, we were talking about different things... i thought we were discussing my proposed changes but you were ignoring that and were talking aobut 4.21s nerf to the item.

Smite isn't just any item

you quote riot's reason for the change and that's fine, but they changed the core identity of the item by doing so. once this was done warwick's burst problem was solved and there was no reason for a further nerf.

also smite isn't an item. if you meant skirmishers then i would reply that different items scale differently, and that is ok.

your math doesn't make sense. Warwick's basic attacks deal his passive maxes at three stacks so at level 6/11/16 loosing two hits mean he loses 33/54/96 damage due to his passive. this change also tames his late game scaling and insane burst (which is what people have a problem with) which is his trade off for being such an incredibly safe early game champion. but it also doesn't gut his w for no reason which means what he loses in late game damage he makes up for in empowering his allies in teamfights which happen mostly in the late game. at his core warwick is a lifestealing tank who is good at duals, a tank isn't supposed to be a late game carry. this change would have solidified this identity, doesn't gut his laning potential, and helps fix the interaction with the item(s) that made him "on the edge of borderline op".

don't slap up some faulty math and say i didn't think things through.

EffectFXDec 11, 20141 votes

Worlds is not the only relevant stage of play.

No, I was discussing the new smite. That's the idea that riot was going for is that anyone can use it just as well as anyone else

So yes, I'm wrong about the passive stacking 4 times (as it's only 3), but the point still stands that it's still going to hurt him overall because of his synergy with on hit items.

He needs a kit rework (which is already in the works) not the shitty makeshift patch job that you're suggesting.

AMYS GRAVEDec 12, 20141 votes

while it's true there is more than just worlds, i'm pointing that out as an example of a larger trend.

we aren't talking about any changes to smite, the scaling of smite is irrelevant. it's the itemization around smite that has been the problem.

his synergy with on hit items is what is breaking him, and my proposed change nerfs that interaction. i'm not completely anti-nerf, i'm just saying the underlying problem is fixable without a complete kit rework.

EffectFXDec 14, 20141 votes

You're completely excluding every single pro/semi-pro league for an event so exclusive that only a small percentage of teams even gets to participate.

sabre in it's current condition is perfectly acceptable.

No, he has other issues. He absolutely needs a full kit rework.

WizzleboomDec 10, 20141 votes

Because using a point and click R to 100-0 basically anything in the game wasn't broken? If they didn't die he can outduel them any outchase them anyways. There is zero skill involved in his kit and he just needs a rework with skillshots.

AMYS GRAVEDec 11, 20141 votes

players looking to learn need easy champions to learn on. now more than ever new players need someone who can safely farm the jungle. it already has a learning curve that turns off most new players. he may be easy but that's not a reason to change his kit, if that were the case the garen needs a rework far worse...

WizzleboomDec 11, 20141 votes

{quoted} players looking to learn need easy champions to learn on. now more than ever new players need someone who can safely farm the jungle. it already has a learning curve that turns off most new players. he may be easy but that's not a reason to change his kit, if that were the case the garen needs a rework far worse...

So you are trying to tell me that he farmed the jungle with his R? LOL nice try bud.

He still has the most sustain in the jungle in the game so move along with your tears.

AMYS GRAVEDec 12, 20141 votes

So you are trying to tell me that he farmed the jungle with his R? LOL nice try bud.

that's not what i said at all, where did you get that impression? my claim was that he may have very little skill in his kit but that isn't a reason to rework him.

He still has the most sustain in the jungle in the game so move along with your tears.

there are no tears here buddy, his interaction with skirmishers made him an unfair monster and something needed to be done. i've made my point about skill curves and if you think every champion should take a ton of mastery to play then league will eventually die out as new players won't have any way to learn the game.

WizzleboomDec 12, 20141 votes

First of all, new players don't start out in the jungle at all because without runes/masteries it isn't really possible. New players start in lane and stay there until about lvl 20, at which time they have a grasp of skillshots and game mechanics.

WW takes less skill than Garen, which is nuts. He is the easiest char STILL to jungle with even after this nerf to his ult and 4 seconds off of his attack speed buff. Everything else is still the same as it was before.

You are just mad they ruined his cheese ult, admit it.

AMYS GRAVEDec 12, 20141 votes

i didn't start in the jungle, but i did try it out pre-20. that's not that unreasonable to do. but when you switch from lane to jungle it's entirely new to you and you need someone easy to learn on. the jungle has a steep learning curve and that doesn't change no matter what level you start jungling at.

i think garen is easier, no mana to worry about, an escape, cc that isn't on his ult, but it's up for debate.

i haven't been playing warwick because team-builder has been flooded with them. when a champion goes fotm i avoid it on general principle. don't assume my motivations, it makes you look like an ashe.

IronChefBoyardeeDec 10, 20141 votes

The point was you shouldn't be able to simply press r and smite and kill someone. That's just dumb. No other ability in the game lets you kill someone at full health by pressing R. Thank god it was nerfed.

AMYS GRAVEDec 11, 20141 votes

zed ult?

the smite + ww ult was pretty insane though!

IronChefBoyardeeDec 11, 20141 votes

Zed ult does not kill someone by itself. Zed has a combo and mechanical skill needed to pull off that combo and not get killed yourself.

AMYS GRAVEDec 11, 20141 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTDqrYk8rL4

if you watch the people who actually try to trade back with warwick rather than run away, he actually gets taken quite low and in a couple of cases dies. foxdrop details the counter play available and drawbacks to this method better than i can here.

warwick's ult wasn't killing someone by itself either. most of what i saw in game is ww using his w+smite+r+q which is a summoner spell and his entire kit. once his ult is out he is a pretty immobile champion which means he will have a hard time killing one person and getting out of a teamfight. if an assassin like kass or zed did that no one bats an eye and they still have escapes.

warwick might be easier to play, but we need easy champions for people to learn. the learning curve for the jungle is already especially high and was recently raised making the easy champions all the more important. easy=!=powerful although in this case the interaction between warwick and the skirmishers was pretty sick.

IronChefBoyardeeDec 11, 20141 votes

I hate Foxdrop's voice haha

Anyway. His w does absolutely nothing for his combo, all it does is increase AS. His full "combo" is smite R Q. There is no counterplay to that. It's ridiculous. I played a devourer ww before the nerf and I swear, one gank all I did was ult and q the enemy jg and he died. I was not expecting that much damage and I don't think he was either. Both of us even commented on how op it was because you just die. You can't do shit.

Warwick will still be a viable jungler, his kit is still super powerful. But now he can't just assassinate people willy-nilly. You actually need teamwork.

AMYS GRAVEDec 11, 20141 votes

his w adds AS which means he gets more on hit effects, it does help even if it isn't core to the combo. a QSS gets you out of his ult, tenacity reduces the duration of the cc effect, he is immobile so he is avoidable and prone to kiting. i still maintain he has counterplay. but yeah the smite+R combo is stupid ridiculous with skirmishers+devourer. i hold that it's the combination of these that made the OP plays.

also you need more teamwork with him but they gutted his w which was his teamwork ability. that's probably the overkill in my mind.

EffectFXDec 10, 20141 votes

He needed it. That's the thing about older champion kits with innately stupidly strong elements (see Warwick, Poppy) that allow them to get out of hand if the right set of circumstances show themselves. Warwick has a much needed rework on the way, but no idea when it'll be released.

BeatzBoyFTWDec 11, 20141 votes

Kassadin was still wrecking in Worlds, so I don't know what you're talking about....

Learn 2 SwimDec 11, 20141 votes

Lee Sin seasons 2-5

ZanathaxDec 11, 20141 votes

I honestly believe they undernerfed him. His combo using BoRK + Q + R is still going to 100->0 most champs. A combo including an item's damage isn't necessarily OP - well it is, but there's usually SOME counterplay - but in his case, unless you have QSS he's going to kill you before you can even do anything. That's the part that ticks people off. 1v1, he's going to destroy anyone. In teamfights, he can instantly kill any squishy he wants to if he simply waits for the other enemies to use their CDs or just to engage in general. His Q and R are simply ludicrous. They always have been, but this just made it obvious to everyone.

Mathlete864Dec 12, 20141 votes

Holy Cow... 28 comments already.