Since so many people are taking about Garen's Villain passive...

EbonyBladeJ88·Sep 13, 2018·6 votes·5,389 views

I just want to know. If you had the chance to remove it, what would you replace it with? After all, ever since the Juggernaut Update, it has become somewhat synonymous with the character, love it or hate it. Just like Darius' Noxian Might has. I can't really speak on whether Mordekaiser's dragon-capturing or Skarner's Crystal Spires were successful, but based on MY personal opinion, Garen's Villain gimmick, clunky and buggy and problematic as it may be sometimes, makes SENSE for his thematic.

So what would you put in the place of the power budget gap, that removing the Villain passive would leave? I just want to know if people have any ideas.

28 Comments

EvilUnicornLordSep 13, 20184 votes

Postpone it until he puts two points into Demacian Justice.

Winning lane against him is a death sentence when he hits level 6 and that's not how it was intended. Shutting down carries in the mid and late game is its purpose and that's how it should work.

º Lamb calls ºSep 13, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Postpone it until he puts two points into Demacian Justice.

Winning lane against him is a death sentence when he hits level 6 and that's not how it was intended. Shutting down carries in the mid and late game is its purpose and that's how it should work.

The villain mechanic doesn't work when you kill the Garen, you have to kill one of his team mates. Unless his jungler inted into you pre-6 you realistically won't be the villian.

At least know how something works before complaining about it. The purpose is to get revenge, nothing more.

EvilUnicornLordSep 13, 20181 votes

I know how it works, I've played the guy several times (he's a good pick when you want to just play casually).

Just that, should you so much as be the target of a failed towerdive or get first blood on an invade, he still gets a free mauling ticket.

I like the idea. It teaches new players to focus carries and more experienced ones to go toe-to-toe with their fed Hecarim and emerge victorious (since he can't really outplay someone). It's when the passive is used early on in-lane that I'm not a fan of even when I'm the one playing Garen.

ApocalypsicSep 14, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I know how it works, I've played the guy several times (he's a good pick when you want to just play casually).

Just that, should you so much as be the target of a failed towerdive or get first blood on an invade, he still gets a free mauling ticket.

I like the idea. It teaches new players to focus carries and more experienced ones to go toe-to-toe with their fed Hecarim and emerge victorious (since he can't really outplay someone). It's when the passive is used early on in-lane that I'm not a fan of even when I'm the one playing Garen.

This is what everyone gets wrong. He's not just a casual pick. High elo players right now are saying he's legitimately one of the strongest champions in the game.

No one seems to get that he's broken right now in every elo, everyone is still stuck on the mentality of Garen being a bad/low elo only pick that easily countered. Garen players who go out to defend his current state right now are clearly delusional.

EvilUnicornLordSep 14, 20181 votes

Hmmmm, no not really.

If you check his stats, his pick rate and his win rate gets lower the higher elo you go.

AlzonSep 14, 20181 votes

It’s because he doesn’t fit in their elitist view of what should be in their games xd

EvilUnicornLordSep 14, 20181 votes

His win rate is affected as well so I'm pretty sure it has more to do with the ability to counterplay and how he doesn't have it.

EbonyBladeJ88Sep 13, 20181 votes

Well, my thinking on the design of the gimmick was that it was INTENDED to go on the carries, as they were generally expected to be the ones with the most kills in any given game. The Juggernaut Update (IMHO) was intended to cement Garen as the Carry-Killer of the 4 champions that were updated in it.

However, with low-kill games, very few people will get marked as the Villain, OR, it's just whoever can get a kill is instantly the Villain and it might not even be the target the Garen player themselves WANT to be marked. If they could choose like Kindred can, OF COURSE they'd mark the Carry, or whomever happened to be doing the best on the enemy team at the time. Shut-Down Gold, after all, if the Garen can kill them.

EvilUnicornLordSep 13, 20181 votes

If they could choose who the villian is, it would have to be exponentially weaker since he's always going to throw it on his lane opponent (unless Garen jungle becomes a thing).

Of course, if the enemy carry doesn't get fed and someone else becomes the villian midgame, it's still a fair deal since they're most-likely on a killing spree and Garen could use the help beating them since he can't really outplay aside from dodging skillshots and timing his Q and W.

EbonyBladeJ88Sep 13, 20182 votes

Yeah, I know. That was just my thinking on the matter at the time the update got released.

FullmetallicSep 14, 20184 votes

Rank 1 ult: E does 1% of their max hp (physical damage) per spin Rank 2: E does 1% of max hp in true damage per spin Rank 3: E does 1% of max hp in true damage per spin, and ult does true damage

Frosted TipsSep 13, 20182 votes

He needs a true rework. I'm not saying make him super difficult, but he can not be healthy in this game with his current kit or anything close to his current kit. As a bandaid fix so that cancerous mechanic can be gone just give him damage reduction against the villian.

EbonyBladeJ88Sep 13, 20182 votes

Well, the update he got back in 2013 was a Visual Update. That was back in the day when Riot was doing both VU's (Visual Updates with very slight gameplay changes) or GU's (Gameplay Updates with small Visual changes). He had already gotten his shiny new coat of paint when they decided to merge the two together and only do VGU's, so I'm under the assumption that they figured he'd already gotten his chance and they weren't going to do another, at least not for a while.

I'm not saying a true rework couldn't WORK, it's just that he's so well-known for what he does that I THINK (This is just MY opinion on the matter) Riot is afraid to give him an ACTUAL VGU out of fear of ostracizing Garen's playerbase. Now, there are instances of that being unavoidable. Aatrox, Galio, and probably a few others come to mind as examples of the champion's playerbase going loud on the changes shown to their beloved character.

Frosted TipsSep 13, 20182 votes

My problem with that mindset of Riot is no matter what you change people are going to be mad. But a champion can not ever exist in a healthy state that is as simple as Amumu DrMundo Garen Nasus Malphite Nocturne Pantheon Tryndamere Volibear Udyr so change just has to happen even if it is as minor as XinZhao

EbonyBladeJ88Sep 13, 20181 votes

The thing is, what players, even each individual player of a champion whether it's Garen or otherwise, considers healthy and what Riot considers healthy is subjective. But, as the saying goes: You can't please everyone.

Frosted TipsSep 13, 20182 votes

The level of counterplay in those simple champions is so low or just kite them and IMO that is not healthy. Again I know it is an opinion, but Riot agrees to an extent because they are reworking many champions on that list as we speak. But they are inconsistent with their balancing and that is what bothers me.

Moody PSep 13, 20181 votes

majority of these champions are magnitudes less offensive than their recent designs continue to be patch after patch

Frosted TipsSep 13, 20182 votes

That is because for the most part Riot keeps them in the dirt where they belong until they are reworked. If they got anywhere close to as effective as healthy champions they would be in every game and smashing people with little to no counterplay.

Moody PSep 13, 20181 votes

No, a handful of these champions have been/are pretty strong and don't come anywhere near dominating the game. Volibear at his peak in S8 and S6 was never considered a defining meta champion who pushed out everyone else - he was just strong within the state of the game. The majority of them are far more dependent on how the current meta is for them to shine, like how Garen currently enjoys viability in the ongoing soloQ assassin meta.

Nasus has been given nothing but buffs for years now, so IDK where you're coming from with Riot trying to keep them in the dirt. In fact, most of these champions have continually gotten buffed until they come into the meta. Bar Pantheon and Tryndamere, and we'll add Nocturne now that lethality > his old DPS builds, most of these champions are far more reasonable to play against and around than new releases like Irelia, Camille, Rakan and Kai'Sa.

Frosted TipsSep 13, 20181 votes

These champions are kept on the low end and when Riot is dumb enough to think they are not unhealthy anymore they buff them and ot either isn't enough to make them good or they are busted and toxic to play against and get nerfed soon after. As soon as they reach a certain percentage play rate like above 8% people start to despise the game again because those champions are not healthy.

GripaAviaraSep 13, 20181 votes

Not True damage? Just increased damage? It's just a thought

Anyway, garen's problem is his damage. He deals buttload of damage upfront and he then is tanky enough without tank items. Enough to catch you with ulti due to his silence

EbonyBladeJ88Sep 13, 20183 votes

I personally think that the type of damage it deals should be changed to physical, considering his nation/region's stance on magic. Doesn't exactly make sense that the "Anti-Magic" people would deal much in terms of magic damage in their kits. But, there IS Lux and a few others, so maybe I'm just being nitpicky.

In regards to the amount of damage he puts out, that just means he's doing his job as a Juggernaut. Juggernauts are DESIGNED to deal and tank large amounts of damage.

AlzonSep 14, 20181 votes

Then why does JarvanIV Demacian Standard do magic damage? Why does Galio do almost entirely magic damage? There are others, too. It’s more of Demacia doesn’t like things they can’t explain. The damage type is irrelevant.

EbonyBladeJ88Sep 14, 20181 votes

Like I said, maybe I'm just being nitpicky.

Tychusfindlay918Sep 14, 20181 votes

If villain is removed in its entirety, I would change garen's E to shred armor by 5% per spin tick, up to 30% rather than the current 25% max.

Change ultimate to physical damage.

Have Q animation speed go down by .05 seconds per level (at rank 5, it's .25 seconds faster).

Ultimate would not receive a damage buff directly, but will deal an additional 10% total damage for any champion who has max shred stacks from Garen's E (any champion who has been hit by at least 6 ticks from Garen's E).

W max resistances nerfed down to 30, but successful demacian justice executions increases the max by 2.5 resistances, up to 20 for a total of 50 resistances.

TheSingularitySep 14, 20181 votes

Honestly it just needs to be replaced. It's a tacked on passive already and with so little wriggle room in his kit (100% point and click stat stick) there isn't much you can do that'd be at all interactive. Given in order to use any new passive, he'd silence you, wack you and run away if he can't kill you with R. For the most part there's next to no interaction by the opponent Perhaps he could gain enhanced spells via his ult rank instead?

Light of MadnessSep 14, 20181 votes

The problem with garen is the same problem Kassadin had in the past... the silence point click.

You use and the enemy cannot do anything just run or AA if it is a champ with good AA... but garen will be just dancing shooting stars on your face.

I am not saying Garen is OP, is really easy to beat a garen, is just annoying the silence.... if you want to change something on him.

JalixSep 14, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Light of Madness,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cbn4s3od,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2018-09-14T05:31:53.068+0000)

The problem with garen is the same problem Kassadin had in the past... the silence point click.

You use and the enemy cannot do anything just run or AA if it is a champ with good AA... but garen will be just dancing shooting stars on your face.

I am not saying Garen is OP, is really easy to beat a garen, is just annoying the silence.... if you want to change something on him.

ill admit, garens silence is pretty damn annoying... i dont really play 5v5 these days as i enjoy arams much more, i like the idea of not knowing what your going to get or what team comp you or the enemy will have and ive seen some pretty bad team comps win just because of how aram is played.

like take Vayne for instance early game in 5v5 shes kinda meh.

in aram shes a beast i remember going 48-11-31 (assists may be off) as her in one of my arams recently, shes dead ass simple to play hasnt been changed in ages, easy to counter yet still does the damage needed even vs garen and trust me when i run aram i almost always have garens villain debuff on me, i view it as an accomplishment really knowing that im the one thats destroyed him that much with him failing to kill me, i love having it on me just because i can relish in the fact its there because i destroyed him :>

https://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2861980458/46032708?tab=overview

EDIT: - i actually get annoyed when a team mate has the debuff instead of me lmao