Can someone at Riot elaborate on the AP Kog'maw hate?

Áion·Dec 7, 2016·15 votes·5,056 views

It feels like every time AP Kog'maw has been relevant Riot has swiftly brought down the nerf bat. Personally, I think Kog maw feels terrible as an ADC. He's designed to be a hyper carry who kills everything late game, but, why would I ever play him when Vayne does his job so much better without needing the protection of her entire team? Digressions aside, I know AP Kog isn' the most interactive of champions but, to a certain extent, that argument could be made for every poke champ. I was just glad to see him getting some play.

35 Comments

RiotMeddlerDec 8, 201619 votes

We wanted to buff ADC Kog. AP Kog's one of the strongest solo queue mids in the game at present though. That meant we felt we had to trim some power from the AP build at the same time, since the W buff would also increase AP Kog's strength.

My Big TitsDec 8, 201615 votes

But it seems like you absolutely gutted ap kog, the waveclear is not good at all with the e change and the w change doesnt do much for him.

My Big TitsDec 8, 20164 votes

Like I understand you want to bring ad kog back but you cant just gut one playstyle to bring back another. There needs to be a balance between the two. I know its not easy to do so but I dont think this is the answer.

DeathBurstDec 8, 20163 votes

I appreciate the sentiment and the calm post. But they said AP Kog is currently "one of the strongest" midlaner, so is he really gutted with that single change?

HigeDec 8, 20165 votes

that's because that waveclear was ridiculous? even for a mage, doing a whole wave for less than 120 mana is NOT alright, not to mention that the damage isn't mitigated whatsoever by anything and it has a crazy good slow attached to the skill plus quite the width.

Sorry, but your freelo needed to be nerfed.

TequilaZombieDec 8, 20161 votes

Twitch can clear an entire minion wave with his W+E for 110 mana.

HigeDec 8, 20162 votes

that's not an inmediate skill, it's a DoT, you have to wait for the five stacks in order for E to do dmg enough to kill minions.

Kog's damage is instant and doesn't fall off

wait what? something isn't adding up here:

Venom cask does no damage and costs 70 mana

Contaminate does 20 + (15 x 5) + 25% of BONUS AD damage at lvl 1 and costs 50

Not only his skills add up to 120 mana but there is no way that he can clear a wave with the damage from his passive and contaminate at lvl 1, if he were to level contaminate, the mana cost rises up to 90 for a total of 160 Mana by using W+E

TequilaZombieDec 8, 20161 votes

I believe the formula is 20 + (15 + 25% Bonus AD) * 6 (he has 6 stacks on his passive, not 5).

And I did messed up on the cost, I quickly calculated in a game some time ago during a 1v1, not the most reliable time. Thanks for correcting it.

However with his E leveled he can quite easily one shot a minion wave. Even though it has a delay, it's 100% reliable. Basicly in a similar pattern of AP Kog with his E+R.

HigeDec 8, 20161 votes

Yeah he does have quite the waveclear, the thing with AP kog is that he can farm while dishing absurd amount of damage to the enemy team by simply hitting one ability, which again, has such a width that is fairly easy to hit on both minions and champions at the same time

With twitch the enemy might step on the area for a second and receive one stack or two at best and receive very little damage from it even with contaminate at max level

SpoofghoulDec 8, 20161 votes

Viktor Lux would like to have a word with you

And Illaoi if you really want the cheapest waveclear of all

HigeDec 8, 20161 votes

I mean, both lux and Viktor are mages, it's kind of their thing you know? fast wave clear, Kog not only works as a mage when built AP but he also has the strengths of an ADC, meaning he has both burst and sustained damage plus wave clear, I think having ALL of that is a bit too broken and I don't think that AP kog needs to be broken to be viable.

My Big TitsDec 10, 20161 votes

I dont play kog so its not my "freelo" i know a few ap kog mains and they enjoy the game through playing it. I agree that ap kog wasnt the most healthy champ but gutting him itsnt the answer.

L0ve Is BlueDec 8, 20166 votes

''We wanted to buff one playstyle so we nerfed the other.''

ArcticblastDec 8, 201612 votes

Because buffing the one playstyle means you have to buff the champion's kit, which means the other playstyle(s) also get stronger. They want to buff ADC Kog'Maw but don't want to buff AP Kog'Maw, so they nerfed an element that ADC Kog'Maw doesn't really use while buffing an element that both playstyles use.

I don't know the details of the Kog'Maw nerf and can't say if the size of the nerf was justified, but that seems to be their logic.

LankPantsDec 8, 20169 votes

There's a difference between nerfing and taking ~20% of the damage off of his E. One of them would be fine and probably leave AP Kog in a pretty good spot, the other is what you're doing and will probably make AP Kog completely unplayable.

ArcticblastDec 8, 20163 votes

I mean technically that is the definition of a nerf

EndlessSorcererDec 8, 20165 votes

Well, they said that they would nerf him if AP Kog'maw ever became viable.

Considering the backlash for broken promises last season regarding Dynamic Queue, maybe they decided now was the time to stand by them.

Poor little Koggles.

TahmKench ExpertDec 8, 20163 votes

Wait for mid Vayne to become viable. Guaranteed radio silence from Riot. There's already Vayne top.

Brain Errör 404Dec 8, 20166 votes

Mid Vayne will never be viable.

ZirzonDec 8, 20161 votes

I thought that statement was from before they reworked his ult to be more healthy? Him entirely relying on his ultimate for massive poke was what made the past iteration of AP Kog toxic.

Latex ChokerDec 8, 20164 votes

The point is that you guys keep shoehorning Kog'Maw into an ADC when the only thing in his kit that supports that playstyle is his W. The moment AP Kog'maw even becomes remotely viable Riot is swift to gut it and shove him back to botlane.

Big LincolnDec 8, 20161 votes

AP kog'maw didn't even have a 1% pick rate tho, how can you say he was that strong? I would be less annoyed if you just said how his E was a low-counterplay nuke because it comes out too fast to reasonably avoid without a dash and good reactions. That's way more understandable

ÁionDec 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

We wanted to buff ADC Kog. AP Kog's one of the strongest solo queue mids in the game at present though. That meant we felt we had to trim some power from the AP build at the same time, since the W buff would also increase AP Kog's strength.

This seems logical on paper but there were ways to buff his performance as an AD without making his mid lane presence overbearing. I'm not a prolific Kog player myself but I've spoken to a few AP Kog'maw players and most of them feel like the tradeoff defiantly was not a fair one.

Wolfram OxfordDec 8, 20162 votes

"AP Kog's one of the strongest solo queue mids in the game at present though." So what kind of drugs do you use? Kog is trash both AP and AD, AP Kog used to be good, but then you changed how his ultimate deals damage and now it is less than horrible.

Tychusfindlay919Dec 8, 20161 votes

{quoted}

We wanted to buff ADC Kog. AP Kog's one of the strongest solo queue mids in the game at present though. That meant we felt we had to trim some power from the AP build at the same time, since the W buff would also increase AP Kog's strength.

Yikes meddler, if the downvotes mean anything, you shook a hornet's nest! xD

Sire HippingtonDec 8, 20161 votes

Nerfing Ap kog because of the overall buff on W is perfectly fine. However, the E nerf is extremely massive. E isn't just AP-kogs waveclear, it's also his main damagesource overall. It his most reliable source of longraged aoe damage. Now i don't say that nerfing E is a no go, but it needs to come with some compensation elswhere, as the W buff doesn't make **much **difference for kog. I think moveing the 0.2 ap you took from E onto his Q would help ap-kog to keep some meaningfull burst aswell as poke potential while beeing more singletarget focused and less relibale. I also think slightly lower manacost on E would be appropiate. 120 manacosts are very huge, but somewhat justifyed with the old values. But with that nerf, those costs are pretty absurd for what it does.

Wind WhistlerDec 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

We wanted to buff ADC Kog. AP Kog's one of the strongest solo queue mids in the game at present though. That meant we felt we had to trim some power from the AP build at the same time, since the W buff would also increase AP Kog's strength.

C'mon, Meddler. Just say you don't like AP Kog'Maw.

HeeroTXDec 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

C'mon, Meddler. Just say you don't like AP Kog'Maw.

May just be that they don't like AP "marksmen". Didn't the EXACT SAME THING happen to AP Tristana?

EDIT: Which begs the question, what braintrust had the bright idea to give several ADCs AP scalings, and if Riot doesn't like them anymore, then why don't they just replace them. (Tristana STILL scales off AP for her abilities)

Wind WhistlerDec 15, 20161 votes

It's very possible they don't like marksmen who also go AP, but look at Ezreal.