Kat shouldn't be able to get fed after being behind the entire game

Tryce Maxwell·May 4, 2015·4 votes·1,288 views

It seems like no matter what you do, kat still ends up with either the most kills or second to most kills even after a terrible laning phase. why is this?

46 Comments

SpongebobIsLifeMay 4, 20153 votes

Because she naturally has a terrible laning phase, it's the way she was designed.

Tryce MaxwellMay 4, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Its Spongebob,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bmpn9Gnu,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-05-04T11:33:34.761+0000)

Because she naturally has a terrible laning phase, it's the way she was designed.

that doesn't answer the question of why she is an automatic win card.

Hex the FenFenMay 4, 20152 votes

She isn't always, if you have a competent team then they can stun her or knock her up and instantly delete her. The only times i have an issue with Katarina dominating a game it is because my team wastes their hard CC on their tank or support rather than killing the immediate threat. She is easy to counter and easy to shut down. I play Zyra mid against her and usually win lane hard and keep her down on her knees the rest of the game.

Romans VI XXIIIMay 4, 20152 votes

So wait, Hard CC is the only counter? Damn to bad Hard CC is a counter for every one, wish people would realize this and stop saying "Hard CC counters X" cause NO SHIT, we want SOMETHING ELSE that counters them not just hard CC.

Agent2090May 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Damn to bad Hard CC is a counter for every one

Exactly, the same thing that counters everyone, counters Katarina. You don't need anything special. You deal with her the same way you deal with everyone else. Wish people would realize this and stop saying she's impossible to deal with.

Romans VI XXIIIMay 4, 20151 votes

LOL, your silly, cause unlike kat, there are other things that counter other champs, for instance. Soft CC (roots, slows) counters melee adcs and bruisers. Minions blocking counters skills shots. QSS counters CC. Long range counters vayne. Burst counters cait. So on and so forth.

So I would like, something OTHER than Hard CC that counters Kat. Please let me know, and explain why it does.

SpongebobIsLifeMay 4, 20152 votes

why would anyone talk to a dbag like you? Get a life bro.

Romans VI XXIIIMay 4, 20151 votes

so still no counters? interesting. All i have done is ask for counters and no one can bring them to the table.

Agent2090May 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Burst counters cait.

Burst doesn't counter Kat? Last I checked, she's still pretty squishy. Funny you mention Caitlyn, because she can even be considered a counter for Kat, long range and an escape that can get her out of Death Lotus' range before it does too much damage.

You know what also works, if for some weird reason you don't have that thing that counters everyone, Exhaust works quite well against her. You could also flash away from her after she Shunpos behind you. Oh, you can even buy Zhonya's and use the active when she ults.

Oh, and you know that thing that counters everyone? It counters Katarina especially hard, pretty much making her useless if used at the right time. Even if you don't get the kill on her. So you should probably have a little bit of it on your team.

You know what also counters Kat? Teamwork. I know it's a foreign concept in soloq, but focusing her down with your team usually negates any damage she can do, since she's dead before she can do it.

Seriously, it's not that hard to stop Katarina. As long as you have that thing that counters everyone.

You know, that thing that people seem to forget exists when it comes to Katarina, but then complain that it counters everyone when it is actually the thing that counters her hardest? The thing that can negate most of her damage with a simple click of a button? But it counters everyone so it isn't good enough to counter her for whatever reason, right?

JustMyBassCannonMay 4, 20153 votes

{quoted}

So wait, Hard CC is the only counter?

Mobility also works, as does focused burst to kill her when she enters the fight, and then there's Exhaust, Zhonya's, Maw of Malmortius and simply being tanky as fuck.

So, as you can see, there are more options than just hard CC.

Romans VI XXIIIMay 4, 20151 votes

Focusing her - yea in a team fight that might work, but she is usually the last one in, and her burst is so high it usually takes out any squishy in a fraction of a sec, and she is blinking off to her next victim

Exhaust - okay, a counter every 300 secs. Not that usefull

Zhonya's - okay, a counter every 90 secs, little bit more useful, but while I'm rushing hourglass, she deals magic damage, soooo I'm fucked in lane.

Maw - okay on an AD, but useless on an AP. sooo maybe for 1/4th of the mid laners? a decent counter.

Tanky as fuck - sadly most mids don't get this way, and in the end kats build bath is actually quite tanky, and can actually 1v1 most tanks with ease. So unless your entire team is tanky as fuck, then this will not work.

Yea, still not seeing any hard counters here. Nope. None

JustMyBassCannonMay 4, 20153 votes

Oh, you were asking for free "Fuck Katarina because I have a trap card" counters, instead of multiple actual player strategies that a single player can manage in order to deal with Katarina?

Good luck with that.

Romans VI XXIIIMay 4, 20151 votes

So the ENTIRE team is supposed to build/summoner/manage around a single enemy champion? Do this and ill watch as the enemy team steam rolls you with the 4 other people you didn't work around.

JustMyBassCannonMay 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So the ENTIRE team is supposed to build/summoner/manage around a single enemy champion?

Ignoring the fact that what I listed were all strategies for one player, yes.

Your entire team is supposed to be aware that they have a certain champion, and plan accordingly.

They need to do this for everyone on the enemy team.

This is called "threat assessment" and it's a basic thing needed to get out of Cardboard V

DedriusMay 4, 20152 votes

Kat's endgame build is tanky?

item 3285 item 3157 item 3089 item 3135 item 3020 item 3026

Guess I am missing where she can solo tanks with ease, Especially because most tanks have hard CC.

Romans VI XXIIIMay 4, 20151 votes

item 3151 Core on kat,

item 3136 Usually the first item kat rushes.

Hard CC only stops her ult, mean while her other abilities are on 4,6,8 second CDs. Yes tanks have problems with her.

DedriusMay 4, 20152 votes

As a platinum Kat main I would like to respectfully disagree. item 3151 is a niche item on Kat vs a full AD or extremely tanky comp. The reason for this is that Katarina is not meant to be a tank destroyer, her purpose is to eliminate the carries. With this in mind, Liandries is not cost effective because it will not do much damage against the squishy targets she should be focusing.

Overall the mpen is meh because it is a flat amount and the AP is minimal compared to other items. Remember Kat is a reset champ who is not meant to be engaging the front line tanks making this item not that great. Haunting Guise is an OK rush on her but item 3285 gives you a big power spike early-midgame that is hard to beat in my opinion and item 3157 is also a better choice for the active to wait for resets..

Romans VI XXIIIMay 4, 20151 votes

LMFAO, ever heard of HP pots? yea boots +4 pots means she wins the laning phase with ease.

With this its simple to both last hit every minion, while harassing them effectively. And who cares how little damage I do pre 6 to them, cause I DONT GIVE A SHIT, I have no resource AT ALL, so while I mindlessly spam they go OOM before I get to my 3 HP Pot. Then I push hard, forcing them to either go back and/or lose CS under tower.

Oh your gunna gank me? Place my free ward and blink cya nerds!

She has such an easy laning phase, its mind boggling people think its hard for her. cause its not, not at all.

Oh and as soon as I hit 6, I'm getting a kill. Its just a matter of which lane I want it from.

straight4freeMay 4, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Its Spongebob,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=bmpn9Gnu,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-05-04T11:33:34.761+0000)

Because she naturally has a terrible laning phase, it's the way she was designed.

No she doesn't.

To elaborate, maxing W she puts out sufficient threat and wave clear. She can clear under tower decently. Her laning is decent to good, not as terrible as people make it out to be.

Sure, she has a few counters, but few who can efficiently shut her down and outperform her in fights. (Other than Viktor I have not seen any other champion reliably bully and outscale her.)

DedriusMay 4, 20152 votes

"I play Katarina for her great laning phase!" - said no one ever

Most ranged mids beat Kat pretty easily in lane so if the Kat player is good then they will wait to shine in teamfights/roaming where Kat is actually strong. If Kat does terrible in laning then you should easily be able to blow her up first in teamfights basically negating her entire game but most people will say "Kat is 0-3 in laning? we don't need to worry about her in teamfights now" only to have her clean up 4 kills in one fight and be strong again.

Sinister SnailMay 4, 20152 votes

Ok honestly, any team with decent communication and focus shits on Kat. She's a noob wrecker, that's it. If you're consistently afraid of her, play a champ with one non-ult ability that interrupts channels, and save it for her ult.

Mid lane examples: Velkoz Xerath Ziggs Zyra Veigar Ahri Azir Annie Chogath (that one's especially brutal against Kat) Heimerdinger Malzahar Yasuo

Turns out she has a lot of bad matchups. And those are all pretty strong champs anyway, so it's not like you're gimping yourself to counter one champ you're afraid of.

A Small DogMay 4, 20151 votes

There's also Lissandra with her faster wave clear, vastly superior poke, and so much CC that Kat might as well save herself the trouble and tie a rope around her waist then attach it to her tower. Because she's not going anywhere else in that lane.

KDA MichaelMay 4, 20151 votes

2 things.

A good katarina knows her strengths and limitations, and probably isn't diving in until she sees a couple of those spells that would interrupt her ult channel go on CD.
Once kat has a few items, her ult really isn't what you need to worry about. By the time she has q-e-w on your squishy target, which can be dumped out in a split second, that target is either dead, or only needs to be hit by the ult once or twice to be dead. The the restart party begins.

I personally don't have a problem with katarina myself, and I have a ton of fun on the rare occasion that I play her, I just know that it isn't always THAT simple to stop a katarina.

PS surprise 3rd thing! In normals and in solo queue can you really count on your team being coordinated enough to shut down kat? Sure they might have every intention of saving that CC for her, but when they get initiated on, they may quickly blow that CD to avoid getting engaged on!

Sinister SnailMay 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

2 things.

A good katarina knows her strengths and limitations, and probably isn't diving in until she sees a couple of those spells that would interrupt her ult channel go on CD.

Once kat has a few items, her ult really isn't what you need to worry about. By the time she has q-e-w on your squishy target, which can be dumped out in a split second, that target is either dead, or only needs to be hit by the ult once or twice to be dead. The the restart party begins.

I personally don't have a problem with katarina myself, and I have a ton of fun on the rare occasion that I play her, I just know that it isn't always THAT simple to stop a katarina.

PS surprise 3rd thing! In normals and in solo queue can you really count on your team being coordinated enough to shut down kat? Sure they might have every intention of saving that CC for her, but when they get initiated on, they may quickly blow that CD to avoid getting engaged on!

A good Katarina plays a champ with a higher skill cap. And that's why I mentioned holding the spell until she initiates: Vel'koz is my favorite example for this. His QW does plenty of damage that you can afford to sit on the E.
If she has items, you probably do too, unless you've already fed her or let her successfully roam for kills. She's squishy too, so you could build to kill her. If you'd rather build defensively, Zhonyas, banshees, RoA, Seraph's, Abyssal etc. are all good options.
Of course not. That's why I don't like solo queuing champs without hard CC. You can just make it your responsibility to CC carries.

SkuntMay 4, 20152 votes

Fizz is worse.

IcyPepperMay 4, 20151 votes

because no resource to gate her abilities (either mana to prevent spamming, or energy to keep her single-combo based) + cooldown resets + reasonably low cooldowns (at level 18: 8/4/6/45).

I don't get it. How can a champion with no resource and cooldown resets possibly have an ultimate with a cooldown that would make Lux blush?

Lost In TimeMay 4, 20153 votes

{quoted}

because no resource to gate her abilities (either mana to prevent spamming, or energy to keep her single-combo based) + cooldown resets + reasonably low cooldowns (at level 18: 8/4/6/45).

I don't get it. How can a champion with no resource and cooldown resets possibly have an ultimate with a cooldown that would make Lux blush?

Because it's channelled, mediocre range and has minimal kill potential rank 1.

She's still gated by cool-downs (that's a resource, fyi) if she doesn't risk herself for kills and pays for her [lack of] secondary resource by having fairly low base damages and ratios beyond her ultimate.

Heaven forbid an assassin killing things when they actually rack up kills. Better just Akali her.

IcyPepperMay 4, 20152 votes

She's still gated by cool-downs (that's a resource, fyi)

Max rank, they're still pretty low. :/

Take Zed for example. From what I've seen, he pops his ult and combo to kill a priority target, and he has to at least wait a little bit before releasing three of his four spells while his ultimate is down. He still has kill pressure, but he's still gated by cooldowns even as he racks up kills. He's a lot healthier than Kat is, in my opinion.

Romans VI XXIIIMay 4, 20152 votes

but still unhealthy.

IcyPepperMay 4, 20151 votes

Assassins are a bitch to balance, if you ask me.

How do you get them to delete squishies, but still give them a chance, and keep them from deleting tanks off the map? I mean, we got cinderhulk now, but you see Zeds with item 3142 item 3035 item 3071 and Katarinas with item 3135 item 3151

Romans VI XXIIIMay 4, 20152 votes

She's still gated by cool-downs (that's a resource, fyi)

So while other mids have 2 resources (by your count) she still only has 1 FYI!

And her cool downs are so atrociously low that this isn't even a factor for her, the only spell that has a decent CD is her blink in the early lvls.

Lost In TimeMay 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

So while other mids have 2 resources (by your count) she still only has 1 FYI!

And her cool downs are so atrociously low that this isn't even a factor for her, the only spell that has a decent CD is her blink in the early lvls.

Cannot take you seriously after your two posts.

Her regen is trash, she is melee, slapping a mana bar will actually BUFF her (cough Chalice cough Tear already make mana non-existant) and if you weren't so busy being silver and nit-picking phrases, you'd see that she trades her mana bar for abyssal damage.

She's probably the most team dependent assassin I have ever seen.

And try hard CCing tanks. CC counters more than others, and when Kat relies on Death Lotus to get anything done, then yes, it bothers her far more than it bothers other champs, so no, just please, shut it.

Romans VI XXIIIMay 4, 20151 votes

if you weren't so busy being silver and nit-picking phrases, you'd see that she trades her mana bar for abyssal damage.

Love how people bring ranked into conversation as if they think that just cause they may or may not be a higher ranked that they KNOW everything and that they are right, Its quite cute.

But just FYI, her ult has literally the highest base damage and ratios, literally. And if you read my other posts, like you think you did you would have also read that since she has no resource she can mindlessly spam those low damage basic abilities.

SO MATH TIME :D

Infinite * low number = INFINITE YAY! X*Y = NOT INFINITE booooO!

In case you cant figure this out, cause idk, the math might be to low for your gold/plat/diam what ever you are, idc. It means that Kat can do infinite damage with out ever going back, while a resource dependent champ can not.

Lost In TimeMay 4, 20152 votes

{quoted}

But just FYI, her ult has literally the highest base damage and ratios, literally. And if you read my other posts, like you think you did you would have also read that since she has no resource she can mindlessly spam those low damage basic abilities.

But just FYI, her ult has literally the highest base damage and ratios, literally.

her ult has literally the highest base damage

** literally**

No.

Also, Renekton and Nasus must be super OP based on that logic

Renek does 1800 magic damage + AP ratios on his ultimate and Nasus does % HP, don't even get me started.

I mean, things like walking away or killing them are impossible in League, especially when champs like Kat have all that zero CC to keep you in place.

Oh wait.

Romans VI XXIIIMay 4, 20151 votes

LMFAO, the difference between those 3 ults is kats is in 2 seconds where as ren and susans are over 15 seconds. Your acting like a child.

Lost In TimeMay 4, 20151 votes

{quoted}

LMFAO, the difference between those 3 ults is kats is in 2 seconds where as ren and susans are over 15 seconds. Your acting like a child.

Besides glaring grammar and control issues you seem to be displaying, spazz, you're missing the satire in my posts and how stupid you sound when there is plenty of proof in this thread alone that Katarina isn't the broken freelo you claim to be.

Now show me on this doll where she touched your elo.

Ada WongMay 4, 20151 votes

She wouldn't if you knew how to play properly as a team.

junglerboy16May 4, 20151 votes

it's your team getting cocky and feeding the 0 and 5 Kat, that's what.

JustMyBassCannonMay 4, 20151 votes

You mean people shouldn't be able to catch up from behind and win? They should just be guaranteed to lose?

Yeah, no, that's not fun or interesting.

warpenguin555May 4, 20151 votes

idk try not feeding her

SkuntMay 4, 20151 votes

Veigar can one shot her late game. Malz can silence and suppress her. Cho can silence and knock her up. Malphite can knock her up. Katarina's are predictable. Use that to your advantage. If you pick Malz, you can suppress her unless she builds QSS. If she builds QSS, you delayed her build and she'll be weaker.

AbyssphereMay 4, 20151 votes

Kat is designed to have a poor laning phase and be strong post-laning. Of course a Kat who's behind in the laning phase can still be useful after, it's what people like her and Akali are designed to do. If she gets the most kills in the game then I guess someone fed her when she started roaming.

RuGuMay 4, 20151 votes

My bigger problem with Kat and other "early" weak laning phase champions is that you used to be able to apply hard jungle pressure to them quickly. Now that junglers usually take a bit longer to get a lane due to the increased jungle difficulty, these weak early game champs have a much easier time and can avoid being punished too heavily.

biggad2001May 4, 20151 votes

God, at least euw boards arent full of bronzies defending freelorina

colesyMay 4, 20151 votes

here is how you beat kat:

counter pick her in lane. leblanc absolutely destroys her in lane, diana can sustain through katarina's poke and interrupt her if she ever wants to ult.
obviously, CC

and here's the biggest one for later game:

engage on her. katarina only likes jumping in to fights where there are low hp targets she can jump on and get resets. if you are the ones initiating then she either has to E away to safety (meaning no engage unless she blows flash) or her team has to sit there fighting 4v5 while she chills in the corner waiting for someone to get low, which considering its a 4v5 is probably her own team.

MetikulusMay 4, 20151 votes

Just play Yasuo against her. She can't burst you with 2 spells because of your shield. You have the mobility to get some distance once she hops on you. Then you windwall her ulti once she starts it and q her from the other side. You will at least go even in the trade, and, if you can proc your knockup to ult her, you can kill her.