Why would Riot remove the tank meta?

Deaeras·Aug 27, 2015·86 votes·5,185 views

Like, it was the best meta ever, ADC's could actually be ADC's, assassins could be played, but would have to choose their engages carefully to not get cc locked. Now its just a "tank assassin" meta, with Garen dealing more damage than Zed while being unkillable, or Morde running rampant in kill lanes in the bot that will never be able to deal with him. Or someone like Hecarim who can deal like 800 damage in his E by simply building Trinity Force and Dead Man's Plate. This meta really pisses me off and I'm hoping that Riot can balance it out.

152 Comments

fasegaAug 27, 201533 votes

Garen and Mord arent tanks they are bruisers. Tanks use CC and utility to control fights while Bruisers use damage instead.

DeaerasAug 27, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Garen and Mord arent tanks they are bruisers. Tanks use CC and utility to control fights while Bruisers use damage instead.

A Garen with nothing but Black Cleaver as a damage item who can still 100-0 an ADC faster than Zed, yet being tankier than any tank in the current Meta that is actually useful is NOT healthy. Don't even try calling him a bruiser.

CrukAug 27, 201530 votes

{quoted}

A Garen with nothing but Black Cleaver as a damage item who can still 100-0 an ADC faster than Zed, yet being tankier than any tank in the current Meta that is actually useful is NOT healthy. Don't even try calling him a bruiser.

Garen cant 100-0 an adc faster than zed with those 6 items, idk what youre even talking about, plus garen is supposed to be faceroll, he punishes people who are too shitty to learn how to kite or misposition.

Edge of DaybreakAug 27, 20159 votes

{quoted}

Garen cant 100-0 an adc faster than zed with those 6 items, idk what youre even talking about, plus garen is supposed to be faceroll, he punishes people who are too shitty to learn how to kite or misposition.

idk I bought this weird ass cloth and zed still hasnt killed me yet.

fasegaAug 27, 20155 votes

"He punishes people who are too shitty to learn how to kite or misposition." This right here is the reason garen is strong right now because these basic mechanics are not seen until you reach diamond. Also a lot of the changes riot is making lately like the lee sin buff this last patch is to stop certain champs from falling off late game and people just waiting the game out to outscale and auto-win cause of it.

DeaerasAug 27, 20156 votes

{quoted}

"He punishes people who are too shitty to learn how to kite or misposition." This right here is the reason garen is strong right now because these basic mechanics are not seen until you reach diamond. Also a lot of the changes riot is making lately like the lee sin buff this last patch is to stop certain champs from falling off late game and people just waiting the game out to outscale and auto-win cause of it.

You can't kite when you're silenced unless you have more movement speed, (which you don't) and by the time the silence is done you're dead, you're best hope is a support who has reliable CC that isn't a slow, to keep Garen off your back while you try to Lifesteal back the health you lost, which he then either runs back at you because your support's CC is on a higher cooldown than Garen's Q, or he runs out and heals all his health back up in 10 seconds.

maikokkAug 27, 20156 votes

if you got silenced by garen, you failed at kiting. why on earth would you wait till he silences you to kite? lol

DazedOnlookerAug 27, 20153 votes

Sorry for my ignorance but, i don't quite understand how garrens kit works yet and i can understand that it would be easy to kite as a ranged champ, but how would you avoid a silence if you're melee, and is forced to constantly sit in his face for AA's or close ranged skills? O.o

I'm not complaining about garren because i find there to be other champs twice as annoying as he is. I'm just curious though.

MessaigaAug 27, 20152 votes

Generally the counter-play to Garen (as a melee) is to wait for his silence to be unavailable, then fight him. This works for other fighters and bruisers who should be able to fight him head-on. In a scenario where both champions have even gold and skill level, an assassin will probably never be able to fight Garen properly.

Keep in mind that since the rework, Garen actually became easier to kite. In normal games or solo queue though, Garen continues to do well for a couple of reasons:

AD Carries generally cannot peel Garen themselves. They require a teammate to also CC him, in order to keep your carry alive.
He does a good bit more damage than we're used to compared to previous Garen, because of new items, his R passive, and his E that spins faster.
He's fairly simple for your average player (just as before the rework). Q -> E -> R. Use W whenever taking heavy damage.

Essentially whenever his R is up, he's one of the most lethal champions in the game. When it is not though, Garen usually struggles to finish off any targets. If you want to beat Garen, protect your carries (provided you have the CC to do so). If you're an assassin, you're probably in for one hellish game (one in which Garen can kill you quite easily, while you barely scratch him).

DeaerasAug 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Generally the counter-play to Garen (as a melee) is to wait for his silence to be unavailable, then fight him. This works for other fighters and bruisers who should be able to fight him head-on. In a scenario where both champions have even gold and skill level, an assassin will probably never be able to fight Garen properly.

Keep in mind that since the rework, Garen actually became easier to kite. In normal games or solo queue though, Garen continues to do well for a couple of reasons:

AD Carries generally cannot peel Garen themselves. They require a teammate to also CC him, in order to keep your carry alive.

He does a good bit more damage than we're used to compared to previous Garen, because of new items, his R passive, and his E that spins faster.

He's fairly simple for your average player (just as before the rework). Q -> E -> R. Use W whenever taking heavy damage.

Essentially whenever his R is up, he's one of the most lethal champions in the game. When it is not though, Garen usually struggles to finish off any targets. If you want to beat Garen, protect your carries (provided you have the CC to do so). If you're an assassin, you're probably in for one hellish game (one in which Garen can kill you quite easily, while you barely scratch him).

Garen can barely be kited because his Q is on like a 3 second CD so everytime you slow him he has his Q before you cal slow him, and your CC is on a higher cooldown than his movement speed buff. (35% is quite a lot, coupled with item 3009 and the Black Cleaver passive he gets over 500 movement speed while chasing your ADC)

Kuroi86Aug 27, 20153 votes

Garen can barely be kited because his Q is on like a 3 second CD so everytime you slow him he has his Q before you cal slow him, and your CC is on a higher cooldown than his movement speed buff.

8 second static cooldown. Even with 40% CDR he doesn't hit 3 seconds, stop posting bullshit like it's facts, learn the champ before you complain about him.

Jeddy017Aug 27, 20156 votes

Because he isn't a bruiser either.He's a Juggernaut.

AtheosisXAug 27, 20155 votes

No, he's still a bruiser. Juggernauts are tanky bruisers. Don't be such a sheep.

Jeddy017Aug 27, 20154 votes

So,Garen is a Juggernaut then. You say he's a bruiser & most people consider him tanky.So he's a tanky bruiser which is a juggernaut by your definition.

AtheosisXAug 27, 201510 votes

You're the one who said he wasn't a bruiser.

GorgannanAug 27, 20151 votes

Solo lanes aside, in a teamfight, Zed is less team dependent. If you're Garen, you'll be the focus, and if you charge their ADC, yours will be rekt, while you're CC locked. Zed can 100-0 a squishy in less than a second of the enemy team not reacting.

My only problem with the power levels, are that after building to tank champions and kill squishies, they then get to tank towers for days.

If anyone should have %hp true damage, it should be towers.

DeaerasAug 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Solo lanes aside, in a teamfight, Zed is less team dependent. If you're Garen, you'll be the focus, and if you charge their ADC, yours will be rekt, while you're CC locked. Zed can 100-0 a squishy in less than a second of the enemy team not reacting.

My only problem with the power levels, are that after building to tank champions and kill squishies, they then get to tank towers for days.

If anyone should have %hp true damage, it should be towers.

The problem is if Garen runs in trying to kill your ADC EVERYONE has to focus him, making it that your team is focusing the tank and the enemy cleans up because all your CC and abilities were wasted on 1 champ who still managed to kill your ADC.

GorgannanAug 27, 20153 votes

Well that's just an inherent problem with bruisers in general. A bruiser can always 1v1 a squishy, and they can do it through the damage of a turret if they build right. Really, the only safe place is in a 5v5 or your fountain turret.

FadedpfAug 27, 201513 votes

Because "Tanks that I cant kill isn't fun WAAAAAH" - Everyone when tanks have even in inch of power. Season 5 is like the nerf tanks season I wouldn't be surprised if we get a tank update and some reverts to all these dumb nerfs to literally almost every piece of their itemization and all the tank champions that have been nerf batted.

SulghunterAug 27, 20156 votes

It's not that I have a problem with tanks being strong, but I just find it ridiculous when tanks put out more damage then a fully built adc, and still be unkillable.

Exhibit A: Udyr Exhibit B: Shyvana Exhibit C: Volibear

AtheosisXAug 27, 20154 votes

Those are all tanky bruisers. Tanky bruisers do lots of damage in exchange for being highly kitable.

SulghunterAug 27, 20157 votes

Try kiting them, I dare you.

KingsgraveAug 28, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Try kiting them, I dare you.

Its actually easy to do against the majority of them, just don't fight them 1 on 1.

maikokkAug 27, 20154 votes

lol kitable. maybe if you have frozen malot... maybe?

AbrahamBaconhamAug 27, 20154 votes

Mallet.

Frozen Mallet.

ElJanitorFrankAug 28, 20154 votes

Did some fancy google translating, these are my findings:

These are based on the assumptions he misspelled the word, by failing to add on the ending letter.

Malote - Pouch in Portuguese Maloto - Filthy in...Malagasy (what the hell is that language) Malota - Dream in .... Chichewa? The hell?

You never know, he could be a Malaysian speaker who was trying to tell you about his frozen filth.

BIAKabooseAug 27, 20153 votes

See, that's because devourer is 100% stupid on each and every one of those examples. Tiger stance Udyr was gone the moment Sated became a thing, and as much as Voli likes having HP being able to bite after the flip and air hit while his ult is shredding your entire team 50% faster than before is stupid. Phantom hit was a great thought with horrible implications that apparently weren't thought through enough. It's insane on every jungler from Vi to Kayle to Xin and everyone in between except like, Shaco, maybe Skarner, Evelynn, Fiddlesticks? Does Mundo even go jungle anymore? Like 3/4 of the "good" junglers either take Devourer or Cinderhulk, then become assassin-esque or unkillable respectively. Not to mention most of the good Devourer jungles are naturally tanks because for some reason they got on hits in their kit, and the rest are either bot (Vayne/Tristana/Kalista) or top (Gnar, Irelia, Fizz...).

Basically the issue is not so much tanks, but rather that a lot of tanks jungle now because Gnar and the new Fiora exist and they wreck melee tanks, and most of said tanks have good on hit effects that get even stronger when they happen 50% more in the same time frame. The issue is devourer for the most part, and then right behind that is the juggernaut reworks being obnoxious to play against because they are tanky as hell with either massive nukes or crazy levels of DPS/CC.

TacoTheKittenAug 27, 201510 votes

Gotta have dem #LCSBigPlays

stealthfox94Aug 27, 201510 votes

Shut up

KeevalroyAug 27, 20155 votes

Why? He's right.

stealthfox94Aug 27, 20154 votes

Doesn't matter this shit is so overused.

TheSlogsAug 27, 20158 votes

I didn't say I like it. It's just the answer.

KeevalroyAug 27, 20158 votes

Overused and still very much accurate.

LadyRenlyAug 27, 20159 votes

I dunno, I felt it was kind of overbearing. Tanks weren't just "viable", everyone but the ADC was and possibly the mid were tanking. 3-4 tanks is just straight up obnoxious no matter how you cut it, and no amount of damage will change the fact that devastating CC+not giving a shit about your poke/all in was just unfun. Being the ADC, you kinda had a bad time because everyone was trying to actually focus you for once because you were the only easy kill

IcyPepperAug 27, 20156 votes

You do realize that bot and midlane were still dominated by carries? No data really supported four tank teams, there's typically at least two carries (one to kill tanks: ADC; one to kill the adc: burst assassin/APC). Hell, the only tanky midlaner played was Cho'Gath (and I guess Galio?).

The closest thing to a tank meta people were complaining about was the smite+tp toplane, and that got nerfed.

SquarefighterAug 27, 20151 votes

Urgot was also a fairly tanky mid laner.

IcyPepperAug 27, 20154 votes

Hm, true. I believe he was used as a counter to assassins, or to shred enemy armor.

I'm not sure he counted as a tank. Just like midlane AP Cho'Gath, I think he was more of a bruiser than a tank?

GodarenAug 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You do realize that bot and midlane were still dominated by carries? No data really supported four tank teams, there's typically at least two carries (one to kill tanks: ADC; one to kill the adc: burst assassin/APC). Hell, the only tanky midlaner played was Cho'Gath (and I guess Galio?).

The closest thing to a tank meta people were complaining about was the smite+tp toplane, and that got nerfed.

I was running into cho like every game and then ryze when he was insane so yeah that wasnt much fun.

IcyPepperAug 27, 20152 votes

And now Ryze has a 45-46% winrate. Poor Riot, Ryze is basically unbalanceable. :/

As for Cho... thank god his ultimate is essentially melee. He's got assloads of cc, but no natural mobility >.<

BastionKrossAug 27, 20157 votes

Tanks are the natural counter to assassins. When tanks were strong, assassins saw less play and were less dominant. Assassins are known for their flashy plays. Every year, Riot seems to mysteriously buff flashy champions or nerf their counters in the patches leading up to worlds.

I fully expect Riot to wait until next season, then buff the tanks back up. A tank meta holds down assassins, but it doesn't make them unplayable and it makes the rift safer for more immobile squishy champs, promoting diversity. Then when next season starts to come to an end, the tanks will all get nerfed back down just long enough for worlds. LeeSin will also get a buff for no reason other than to incentivize players to pick him more often.

SymbolicFearAug 27, 20153 votes

Tank meta's aren't fun at all... I would prefer it if the meta was just... EVERYTHING. EVERYTHING should be viable, EVERYTHING should do well in the hands of someone at least competent. All these pillow fights and tanks deleting people are fucking annoying and everytime something like this happens, I take a year break from shitty meta's in the league and go play something like DayZ

KVbqbFsC8eAug 27, 20153 votes

In reality, there was no "tank meta". "tank meta" was just a phrase people used instead of "Cinderhulk is broken".

Silents429Aug 27, 20152 votes

Even if Riot didn't step in the meta was going to change anyway.

And the tank meta wasn't some happy colorful land it keeps being made out as, going against a team of 3 tanks all the time friggin sucked, when Sejuani was top picked that sucked too.

Yeah it wasn't the worst meta but it wasn't that great.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 27, 20152 votes

What's wrong with Sej being a top pick?

Silents429Aug 27, 20152 votes

Near perma slow and high damage combined with the supreme tankiness.

She wasn't overpowered, but jesus she needed to be toned down.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbAug 27, 20152 votes

and now she, and her items, have been nerfed to below 50%. Meanwhile, kayle is a top 5 jungler.

Silents429Aug 27, 20152 votes

And she still works.

RysophageAug 27, 20152 votes

If you mean adcs could be adcs you mean vayne, ashe,kalista and jinx only right? cuz no1 else was really viable. the tank meta was stupid. im tried of getting 1v1'd by a jungler with no damage just because they had cinderhulk and some stupid %HP damage nuke that scales from HP. it's bad deisgn.

DeaerasAug 27, 20151 votes

{quoted}

If you mean adcs could be adcs you mean vayne, ashe,kalista and jinx only right? cuz no1 else was really viable. the tank meta was stupid. im tried of getting 1v1'd by a jungler with no damage just because they had cinderhulk and some stupid %HP damage nuke that scales from HP. it's bad deisgn.

Can you not kite? Tanks normally have high cooldowns and low damage, with high CC, once that CC is gone easy kite.

RysophageAug 28, 20152 votes

It's pretty hard to kite at level 4 under red buff -.- yes i can kite im one of the only adcs in my division that can kite. also LMAO at low damage.