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I'm Gonna be Straight here. The new Jungle is absolutely TERRIBLE

Alëk··9 votes·637 views

I'm fairly sure that when Riot thought up the new jungle, they were hoping for a jungle that allowed all jungle champs a fair and equal chance to have an impact on the game. However, due to the fact that some items had such clear advantages on the others --skirmishers and trailblazers-- and jungle sustain got rekt the imbalance became downright unbearable. As a jungle main who loved experimenting with different champions, this is absolutely unacceptable.

Some champions that used to be "meh" because they were slightly below average, are now pretty good because all the champions that used to be OK are now trash-tier in the jungle. Shen used to be one of those "meh" champs, while Wukong used to be one of the OK ones. Shen is now one of the only champions who can survive jungle without upgrading to poachers knife. Thus boosting him to bottom Tier 1 jungler. Wukong can't survive new jungle well at all.

I've never made a rant thread before, but as a jungle main I can honestly say that this is absolutely shit and something SERIOUS needs to be done about the current jungle. I understand this is pre-season but I don't think I can stand to play jungle for the next 2-3 months unless some legitimate changes are made.

Sejuani, Nautlius, Eve, Twitch (especially this), Vayne and all champions that I considered FUN junglers are now totally unplayable for one of two reasons. Champions that don't have consistent DPS, OR enough sustain to make up for the lack of damage, are total crap. However the champions that have both are now S-Tier (Warwick, Udyr, Lee Sin, Kha'Zix, Maokai). Due to Devourer's current power almost all AS based champions are atleast Tier-1 now. Junglers like Olaf, Yi, Xin, and Warwick (obviously), who were overshadowed by Elise, Lee, and Kha (the former Big 3), were pushed up by both the power of Devourer and the decrease in power to pretty much all junglers who didn't have the capability to survive jungle early game.

TL;DR the new jungle is completely Anti-fun and needs changes. If you can't play champions you enjoy, then there is no reason to jungle anymore. The only thing the new jungle did was enforce a certain group of junglers, while completely outlawing any other junglers. Jungle needs changes ASAP.

15 Comments

Bears Dont Care3 votes

Except that Twitch and Vayne are not junglers because they were never designed to be actual junglers. Eve and the actual junglers have issues because they have no form of sustain so they have to recall more often, and lose out on ganking opportunities and farm opportunities.

Alëk2 votes

Except that Twitch and Vayne are not junglers because they were never designed to be actual junglers. Eve and the actual junglers have issues because they have no form of sustain so they have to recall more often, and lose out on ganking opportunities and farm opportunities.

That's the type of meta answer that I honestly expected. Why should there be a specific barrier between "junglers" and other roles? However I do agree on one thing. Changing the jungle to allow twitch to jungle, might cause bad consequences amongst other junglers. Either nerfing them to the ground or buffing them to god-tier. Doesn't mean I agree with the idea though.

Bears Dont Care2 votes

Except that Twitch and Vayne are not junglers because they were never designed to be actual junglers. Eve and the actual junglers have issues because they have no form of sustain so they have to recall more often, and lose out on ganking opportunities and farm opportunities.

That's the type of meta answer that I honestly expected. Why should there be a specific barrier between "junglers" and other roles? However I do agree on one thing. Changing the jungle to allow twitch to jungle, might cause bad consequences amongst other junglers. Either nerfing them to the ground or buffing them to god-tier. Doesn't mean I agree with the idea though.

It isn't a amtter of "meta", its a matter of how each champion is designed and their purpose within the jungle and how they accomplish it. When you jungle, you need several things.

  1. Sustain. Twitch and vayne have neither of this.
  2. Survivability. Twitch and vayne are very squishy, they barely survived the s4 jungle. It left you open to counter jungling/counter ganking.
  3. Utility/early game pressure. Neither of them provide this because of the way they are built.

It isn't about what is "meta", its about the toolkit those champions are given and they just don't have the tools to be effective. Hence, why many people consider it a "troll" to be a jungle twitch or a jungle vayne.
Not only because their toolkit doesn't fit the jungle, but also because they are far more effective elsewhere.

Junglers are typically less gold/level dependent. Lee sin/pantheon/Jarvan IV.

Alëk2 votes

Except that Twitch and Vayne are not junglers because they were never designed to be actual junglers. Eve and the actual junglers have issues because they have no form of sustain so they have to recall more often, and lose out on ganking opportunities and farm opportunities.

That's the type of meta answer that I honestly expected. Why should there be a specific barrier between "junglers" and other roles? However I do agree on one thing. Changing the jungle to allow twitch to jungle, might cause bad consequences amongst other junglers. Either nerfing them to the ground or buffing them to god-tier. Doesn't mean I agree with the idea though.

It isn't a amtter of "meta", its a matter of how each champion is designed and their purpose within the jungle and how they accomplish it. When you jungle, you need several things.

  1. Sustain. Twitch and vayne have neither of this.
  2. Survivability. Twitch and vayne are very squishy, they barely survived the s4 jungle. It left you open to counter jungling/counter ganking.
  3. Utility/early game pressure. Neither of them provide this because of the way they are built.

It isn't about what is "meta", its about the toolkit those champions are given and they just don't have the tools to be effective. Hence, why many people consider it a "troll" to be a jungle twitch or a jungle vayne.
Not only because their toolkit doesn't fit the jungle, but also because they are far more effective elsewhere.

Junglers are typically less gold/level dependent. Lee sin/pantheon/Jarvan IV.

Twitch has extremely strong early game pressure. just like shaco his level 2 ganks are one of the strongest in the game. You're also just reaffirming what I'm saying. Jungle is one of the most versatile roles in the game. That role can be played by almost anyone with decent experience. You are also incorrect in 2 of those things. You do NOT need sustain, nor survivability to jungle. You need the ability to clear camps, while still being able to give effective ganks throughout lane phase. After that you transition into whatever role the champion fits into.

Twitch and Vayne jungle aren't the ideal junglers, but they could clear taking very little damage, while having ganks that are pretty strong. It's not a matter of whether they are gold/level dependent. It was a matter of whether they could do their job. If played correctly, they did their jobs quite effectively and this is spoken from personal experience.

Either way this is beside the point. The new jungle allows only those with specific qualities the abilities to jungle effectively. Meta junglers have only become MORE enforced in the new jungle, and diversity is at an all time low.

ujf2qEqxi91 votes

  1. Eve is a mid or top laner. Thanks. Buh Bye.

  2. The changes to the jungle are a direct response to the end of last season where the support roamed with the jungle.

  3. Riot needs to stop "balancing" the game based on LCS.

Raptamei1 votes

Why can't you just follow the proper meta?

Bears Dont Care1 votes

No not really. Both twitch and vayne were squishy and took damage from jungle monsters others did nit. Those junglers were designed to jungle while twitch and vayne were not. Thwy arent effective at ganking due to lacking the proper tools and being item dependant.

Let alone they dont want non jungle oriented champs in the jungle.

Alëk1 votes

No not really. Both twitch and vayne were squishy and took damage from jungle monsters others did nit. Those junglers were designed to jungle while twitch and vayne were not. Thwy arent effective at ganking due to lacking the proper tools and being item dependant.

Let alone they dont want non jungle oriented champs in the jungle.

.... You keep enforcing what I'm saying. Meta shouldn't be enforced in a role where all that matters is the ability to help a team the team. There are no champions that are "designed" to jungle. There are champions that excel at jungling. If champions were "designed" to jungle than there would be champions that would be "designed" for every lane. Have you noticed Riot's dark horses thing? Was Brand "designed" for support? hell no but its a position that holds unique promise due to the fact that he has a distinctive perk in his interaction with a support item.

Was Ryze "designed" to go toplane? Definitely not, but because he countered the majority of melee top laners and specifically, renekton he was played there anyway because of the obvious advantage he had. Ranged junglers have a distinctive perk in that they don't have to gapclose like melee junglers. Twitch's steal puts as much pressure as a lee sin would all over the map with his strong ganks. Vayne is definitely weaker in map pressure, but offers more CC and damage in the early game.

The fact of the matter is that, they COULD survive in the jungle. If they weren't able too they wouldn't have ever been played there. There is a reason Mages aren't played in the jungle. They quite literally aren't ABLE too. Why? They don't have the consistent damage required to clear camps. If they did they would be overpowered due to the general amount of either pure damage or hard cc mages generally have. Twitch and Vayne don't have burst early game, but they had enough dps that they could clear camps reliably the moment they got a sufficient damage item. They made up for their poor clearing capabilities for strong early game ganks. Towards the mid game they could become more focused on farming and clearing.

Anyone who has the capability to jungle should be able too. In my opinion its quite simple. What the pros do should not affect what casual players, who play for fun only, want to play. If I want to play twitch jungle, then why the hell not? It worked before, and now it doesn't because they want to enforce meta? That's bullshit and you know it. The reason I enjoyed jungle so much is because it isn't limited to one role, that people rage if you don't play. I'm tired of seeing Lee and Warwick literally every game.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

Khazix was designed ti jubgle. He has bonuses sspecific for.monsters. eve was designed to jungle as her passive and toolkit are intended for.it. characters that can solo mid lane can solo top and act as an offensive support as well due to their own innate cc. So yes. There are champs.intended for lanes or jungling and it isnt a meta thung. It is why labe khazix is very rare, his kit is i tended for the jungle. Same for eve. Just because you can survive the jungle doesnt mean your champ is good in it.

Alëk1 votes

Khazix was designed ti jubgle. He has bonuses sspecific for.monsters. eve was designed to jungle as her passive and toolkit are intended for.it. characters that can solo mid lane can solo top and act as an offensive support as well due to their own innate cc. So yes. There are champs.intended for lanes or jungling and it isnt a meta thung. It is why labe khazix is very rare, his kit is i tended for the jungle. Same for eve. Just because you can survive the jungle doesnt mean your champ is good in it.

Once again. His kit allows him to excel in the jungle. Just like rengar and lee sin. However no champion is made for jungle. He can mid and top lane. Eve was and still is decent in mid lane. Lee Sin can jungle well, but top lane he's also extremely strong right now. Lee Sin top lane is currently meta. Teemo is a champion who can play every role. Do you mean to say that teemo was made to play them all? Same with kayle. I'm very sure you don't mean to say that they were "designed" to play all roles. It's just something that their kits allow. Kha'zix's kit makes him a fairly strong top laner. He has strong dueling potential, sustain and mobility to escape from ganks. However, he's farily mana dependant early game unless he has blue. And due to to his early game squishyness he's outclassed by other laners. Thus he's played in jungle to counteract that fact.

Nunu's kit allows him to excel in jungle as well. His Q gives him bonuses from eating monsters. However, he was a very strong top laner for a long time. And then he was a decent support for a while. All of this while having a kit "designed" for a jungler. It doesn't have to do with whether or not a champion is "good" in the jungle. As long as the champion is capable of jungling overall, then it doesn't matter. The meta is defined by the strongest junglers. As you said, the ones that are "good". Just because twitch isn't considered "good" (meta) doesn't mean he CAN'T jungle. You are hung up on whether or not he's good. I've had games where I've done very well as twitch jungle. In serious game's it probably isn't worth the risk, however this is a game where people play to have fun. Are you trying to say because they're not good they shouldn't be allowed to play jungle?

Are the ones who are fun, but not "good" bad for the game?

Bears Dont Care1 votes

Lee sin can go to .or mid s III mply because of his kit, but his best place is jungle for several reasons. Junglers typically do t need much gold to be good. So, champioms like lee sin, pantheon are great because they fall off late game and acc mulating all that gold s better for a bdtter scaling champion like twitch or vayne. None od what tou said counters my statement at all, you are literally trying to force the idea that becaise it can be done, changes should be done to suit those champs like twitch and vayne. It shouldnt simply due t .kit differences. Twitch and vayne were never viable junglers and the new jungle keeps them out.so people d OK nt trap themselves. Early game power and sustain are more.important now and so ch as racters that are meant to jungle willl... shock ngly.. be the meta.

Just because you can, doesnt mean you should, and you cant complain if the environment changes for a character ill suited for it n the first place

Alëk1 votes

Lee sin can go to .or mid s III mply because of his kit, but his best place is jungle for several reasons. Junglers typically do t need much gold to be good. So, champioms like lee sin, pantheon are great because they fall off late game and acc mulating all that gold s better for a bdtter scaling champion like twitch or vayne. None od what tou said counters my statement at all, you are literally trying to force the idea that becaise it can be done, changes should be done to suit those champs like twitch and vayne. It shouldnt simply due t .kit differences. Twitch and vayne were never viable junglers and the new jungle keeps them out.so people d OK nt trap themselves. Early game power and sustain are more.important now and so ch as racters that are meant to jungle willl... shock ngly.. be the meta.

Just because you can, doesnt mean you should, and you cant complain if the environment changes for a character ill suited for it n the first place

I actually agree with you on most of that. But the main problem remains. How about this. Completely disregard Twitch and Vayne. Can you not admit that the only junglers currently doing well are those who can use devourer effectively? Or more importantly, the dps champions. Champions like Sejuani (she was definitely designed for jungle), and Nautilus were decent junglers before. They are now unable to clear 3 camps without dying. Obviously eve, but wukong was someone who was pretty strong. Another champion who can't survive well. Shyvana was also a somewhat good jungler, but because she has no sustain she also dies in the jungle. These champions were never illsuited for the environment. By outcasting those champions meta champions have been enforced more than anything else.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

I actually agree with you on most of that. But the main problem remains. How about this. Completely disregard Twitch and Vayne. Can you not admit that the only junglers currently doing well are those who can use devourer effectively? Or more importantly, the dps champions. Champions like Sejuani (she was definitely designed for jungle), and Nautilus were decent junglers before. They are now unable to clear 3 camps without dying. Obviously eve, but wukong was someone who was pretty strong. Another champion who can't survive well. Shyvana was also a somewhat good jungler, but because she has no sustain she also dies in the jungle. These champions were never illsuited for the environment. By outcasting those champions meta champions have been enforced more than anything else.

Hallelujah im on my comp again. Actually, I've not had many issues with Shyvana, and I've seen some people be successful with Wukong but it may be a similar issue to Eve, being forced to use lifesteal quints/spellvamp quints and in turn, losing early game damage.

I think its more of an issue that the kits need to be adjusted, so for example, SHyvana gets extra damage against monsters through her W/ Extra damage would give her a faster, more reliable clear and make her last longer in the jungle.

Alëk1 votes

I actually agree with you on most of that. But the main problem remains. How about this. Completely disregard Twitch and Vayne. Can you not admit that the only junglers currently doing well are those who can use devourer effectively? Or more importantly, the dps champions. Champions like Sejuani (she was definitely designed for jungle), and Nautilus were decent junglers before. They are now unable to clear 3 camps without dying. Obviously eve, but wukong was someone who was pretty strong. Another champion who can't survive well. Shyvana was also a somewhat good jungler, but because she has no sustain she also dies in the jungle. These champions were never illsuited for the environment. By outcasting those champions meta champions have been enforced more than anything else.

Hallelujah im on my comp again. Actually, I've not had many issues with Shyvana, and I've seen some people be successful with Wukong but it may be a similar issue to Eve, being forced to use lifesteal quints/spellvamp quints and in turn, losing early game damage.

I think its more of an issue that the kits need to be adjusted, so for example, SHyvana gets extra damage against monsters through her W/ Extra damage would give her a faster, more reliable clear and make her last longer in the jungle.

The fact remains that many champions require adjustments in order to be considered strong in the new jungle.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

The fact remains that many champions require adjustments in order to be considered strong in the new jungle.

It depends. Some have itemiaton issues (WW). Some have kit issues (Evelyn) Some are just a problem no matter what is done (Lee sin).

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