How about we make Fizz's Troll Pole a little less trolly...

Busty Demoness·Apr 9, 2017·10 votes·948 views

By having it knocked out from under him if he's standing on it when something would otherwise hit him and if he's knocked off, he does no splash damage.

This would keep him from standing on it to avoid tons of damage. And it wouldn't change most of his playstyle either. It would also add a small measure of decision making in his kit.

EDIT: Jeez guys, I'm only saying "while he's standing on the pole". I'm not saying remove the "can't touch this" completely, just leave a little window where he can be knocked out of it if he's not careful.

Of course, it'd be nicer if I wasn't trying to argue with bronze/unranked players too cowardly to post on their main accounts and prove they have a chance of knowing better.

40 Comments

MisterSkiApr 9, 201711 votes

And would also make the ability completely worthless.

Busty DemonessApr 9, 20175 votes

How does it become useless?

He still gets a ton of potential dodging power, he just can't sit on his pole to do it.

MisterSkiApr 9, 20176 votes

Umm playful trickster is used because of the invulnerable state. I am guessing you want item 3157 to no longer grant stasis?

MissingKayoApr 9, 20176 votes

Yeah, let's remove Guardian Angel's and Zilean's ult and all revival/immortality passives on champions too while we're at it :D

Busty DemonessApr 9, 20173 votes

Zhonya's forces you to stay wherever you used it. Vlad's slows his movement and you can still see exactly where he can go.

I'm not saying ELIMINATE the invulnerability, just reduce the window for it. Don't let him sit there for almost a full second with dodging everything and getting a little more as he comes down.

MisterSkiApr 9, 20177 votes

Yeah you want to make him unplayable. I got that from the original post.

Busty DemonessApr 9, 20175 votes

How often have you seen a Fizz sit on his Pole for the full duration or close to it, without Zhonya's?

You seem to be missing the point that this only works if he's standing on the pole when he's hit. If he's already on his way to splash or in the process of getting set, then nothing else happens.

MisterSkiApr 9, 20175 votes

If you spent half as much time learning to counterplay Fizz as you spend crying about it you would be demolishing him right now.

Busty DemonessApr 9, 20173 votes

You know, I might take your trash talk more seriously if those arguing with me weren't unranked/bronze accounts.

And keep in mind, that does include you.

All I said was "reduce the window". You claim that it would make him unplayable.

So would Fiora's Riposte be useless if it only blocked for .5 seconds instead of .75 seconds? Would Rammus' Taunt be useless if it only lasted 2 seconds instead of 2.5? Would Veigar's cage be useless if it lasted only .25 seconds less?

You clearly don't understand what I'm asking for, and arguing that I'm asking for something else only shows that you aren't reading and willfully ignore a suggestion that is nowhere near what you think it is.

MissingKayoApr 9, 20171 votes

And you still have no fucking idea what you're whining about.

Fiora is semi-tanky and has multiple survival mechanisms. Rammus is a full fucking tank. Veigar is ranged and has a cage that can shut off an entire segment of lane and end a chase right there.

Fizz is melee, squishy, and has no other survival mechanisms other than his E.

MisterSkiApr 10, 20172 votes

I will 1v1 you any day with any champ. I am faker compared to you. You are a trash player that can't overcome a Fizz? Fizz doesn't have the highest win rate so why not cry about things where the STATS benefit you. You fucking child.

Busty DemonessApr 11, 20171 votes

Alright. I will 1 v 1 you.

To make sure you're serious, we will do it when the following conditions are met:

You get this account you've posted on to Gold 5 or better.
You let me pick your champ for the match and I pick my own.
League becomes a 1 on 1 game and 5v5 Summoner's Rift is disabled.

The last one is there because that means individual skill actually matters more than working cooperatively with 2 to 4 allies, all of which can be randomly matched with you.

Since you suggested that we go one on one, I'll just remind you that winning your lane, with or without help, does not mean you have won the game.

Take your one versus one attitude and save it for fighting games so that you can stop blaming your team for holding you back.

MisterSkiApr 11, 20172 votes

Just to clarify you are scared to 1v1 me? It's okay you got carried to your "rank" which you clearly deserve XD keep crying

Busty DemonessApr 11, 20171 votes

It's not that I'm afraid. I just don't feel like wasting the time to satisfy your pointless request.

MisterSkiApr 11, 20172 votes

Haha sure thing little buddy [slayer-jinx-wink]

MissingKayoApr 9, 201710 votes

Or no, deal with it and stop crying. get good. You're asking for Fizz to be turned into fucking trash because you're salty you can't play against him lmfao

Busty DemonessApr 9, 20175 votes

Are you allergic to counter play? As it is his ultimate has an insane hit radius that practically covers an entire lane.

MissingKayoApr 9, 20176 votes

Or how about you don't be a fucking idiot and wait till his E is on cooldown before you blow major spells?

And not anymore it doesn't. I also didn't realize MR was removed from items.

Jesus, trash players these days cry about everything.

Busty DemonessApr 9, 20174 votes

Ever since it started gaining damage/radius/knockup based on distance traveled, it's ALWAYS had the hit box of the full size at all points of travel.

How exactly are you supposed to avoid that type of hit box? Why would you walk towards him, AN ASSASSIN, just to reduce its damage?

And most MR items aren't that great, most of which are situational based on the champion anyway.

Hexdrinker/Maw/Edge/Merc Scim = AD items and Merc Scim/QSS won't cleanse the fish off. Banshee's = Anyone pops it for him or he pops it with something else. Abyssal = Not quite a tank item and he could have his own to reduce your MR.

And this is without taking into account any of his items that can increase his burst to the point where you're still barely alive after one combo and he's almost got another rotation ready.

DracocrashApr 9, 20175 votes

his ult is so easy to dodge and even if i get hit i can just pop zhonya or have a maw under my belt lol.

Busty DemonessApr 9, 20175 votes

Great. So now you've popped Zhonya's and he still has his. What are you gonna do now?

And again, how do you dodge something that easily covers around half of the bloody lane?

DracocrashApr 9, 20177 votes

it doesn't cover half of the lane. That is just a blatant lie

It used to be bugged and have an autostick ; now its gone and it is dodgeable.

Also after you pop your zhonya your team should have 2.5 to duck on fizz; if you got cought out alone by an assasin without any escapes you deserved to die, thats what assasins do.

If fizz pops his zhonya then walk away from him; congratz u just made him useless since he provides no other utility.

MissingKayoApr 9, 20174 votes

lul tho trash players shitposting about whatever champions they can't beat

Busty DemonessApr 9, 20173 votes

Never said I couldn't beat him.

Just suggesting something to give him a smaller margin for error.

Why should Assassins have extremely safe gameplay anyway?

ScissorsNstuffApr 9, 20171 votes

I wouldn't mind this, but he should still do the basic splash damage.

Leaf of the lakeApr 9, 20171 votes

Honestly, ever since they made his ult less bullshit, I haven't found fizz nearly as frustrating to play against. He's powerful atm, that's for certain, and he could probably do with a nerf, but the change you're suggesting would just destroy him.

Here's my thoughts: Give his W an increased CD; make it scale from 18-14 instead of 18-10, but make it refund 4s CD (anti-synergistic with CDR) if he doesn't reactivate it. There, he's now a lot less slippery, while still being able to use the move much the same as he does now. This places a higher tax on using the move for mobility, while still being just as effective as it is currently when used as a pseudo-zhonyas.

NotSpecialDudeApr 11, 20171 votes

I'm on the fence here.

On the one hand, I see your point. Fizz's pole is invincibility, mobility, and damage rolled up real nicely in a non-ult ability. It can be (and often is) very frustrating to face when fizz no sells a vital cc or ability.

On the other hand, fizz heavily relies on this ability to assassinate mid to late game. Especially when facing opponents with a brain who hold on to their cc till its on cooldown. If it got the aatrox treatment of not preventing damage, the frustration inverts to the fizz player.

So yeah, I'm in the group who say nay to this change. It isn't the worst thing on his kit (His w would be that for me) and I can't see any real balancing reason to nerf it so.

Colton147Apr 11, 20171 votes

As much as I hate that ability, you are sadly not allowed to have an opinion on any champion that has a "invulnerability" ability that is different than the forum.

It is quite sad that people would bully each other for having their own opinion.

Busty DemonessApr 11, 20171 votes

It's not that they disagree with me.

It's that the two loudest about this act like they're amazing players when a ready search tells me they couldn't get into silver without being carried or paying for boosts.

They aren't worth my time and they know it.

MissingKayoApr 11, 20171 votes

lul when trash players make up whatever excuses they need to make themselves feel better when literally no actually good player has a problem with it

Busty DemonessApr 11, 20172 votes

So let me get this straight...

You're on a level 20 account so you can dodge the evidence your main account would show, assuming this isn't your main account... The other had only reached Silver in S4 and is currently unranked for all other seasons... Both of you talk trash like you're superior players...

Both of you have only offered trash talk and radical claims with no evidence at all...

And then you act like I should be taking you seriously.

http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/195/646/1320529223886.jpg

MissingKayoApr 11, 20171 votes

lul when the trash player is still crying

How about you go and look up what actual pro players or high ELO players say and do, if you hate getting told common sense by the two of us? Quit crying.

Busty DemonessApr 11, 20171 votes

Your every post has been "giving me common sense"?

Let's review...

{quoted}

lul tho trash players shitposting about whatever champions they can't beat

Hm, not a bit of actual advice nor anything to indicate why my suggestion is bad.

{quoted}

Or no, deal with it and stop crying. get good. You're asking for Fizz to be turned into fucking trash because you're salty you can't play against him lmfao

Nothing looking like advice here. Seems like straight up insults and "you're trash and I'm making this claim without doing a bit of research".

{quoted}

Or how about you don't be a fucking idiot and wait till his E is on cooldown before you blow major spells?

And not anymore it doesn't. I also didn't realize MR was removed from items.

Jesus, trash players these days cry about everything.

More insults, no linked proof that they fixed the hit box, and you're still assuming I wouldn't build an MR item if I needed to (which, again, shows that you haven't done any research on me).

{quoted}

And you still have no fucking idea what you're whining about.

Fiora is semi-tanky and has multiple survival mechanisms. Rammus is a full fucking tank. Veigar is ranged and has a cage that can shut off an entire segment of lane and end a chase right there.

Fizz is melee, squishy, and has no other survival mechanisms other than his E.

Mostly insults and ignoring that Fizz is an assassin (a class not meant to have straight up survival).

{quoted}

lul when trash players make up whatever excuses they need to make themselves feel better when literally no actually good player has a problem with it

And more of the same.

Neither you nor Ski have offered alternate suggestions nor explanations as to why my suggestion would not work. Both of you have directly insulted me without linking any evidence, whether it be for giving you credibility or offering a logical response argument.

And you claim you're offering common sense?

You could have a masters in each of 5 radically different fields and I would still mark you as a completely ignorant fool based on the fact you have done nothing but talk trash.

I'd be willing to wager $10 in RP that you cannot reply to this post with all the following:

no insults at all (not that you bug me with them, it makes me laugh that you resort to them before logic)
a reasonable balance suggestion that was not previously mentioned in this thread (so no simply saying "buy hexdrinker")
offer some logic as to why the alternate suggestion would work better and why my suggestion is too extreme

Do something you haven't done prior in this thread. If you can't be bothered to put up a little effort to be civil and reasonable, then you're not worth the effort to take seriously.

MissingKayoApr 11, 20171 votes

Um. Assassins ARE meant to have a survival tool. It's usually in the form of mobility or stealth or untargetability.

Why don't you just do something as simple as wait till his E is on cooldown? Bait it out by being at a long enough distance he needs to use it to gapclose or force it out by firing something at him.

Zhonya's completely nullifies his entire combo if you're AP. As for early, just get a Lost Chapter (for mana) and Negatron Cloak (for large earlygame MR) which would be used for the later Abyssal. If you're AD, an early Hexdrinker completely nullifies his damage and burst. Not sure why this advice would be invalid when it works just fine.

As for tank Fizz, that's just an abomination created by the failure of a Fizz rework that wasn't even needed in the first place. Not really anything much you can do there. But if you're going against tank Fizz, it's most likely toplane instead of midlane, so you could just go MR tank items like Visage or the like.

Also, in the new items, the new Banshee's spellshield item will be an incredibly strong anti-assassination tool to just about any assassin. They have next to no way to pop it without using up an important ability for most cases, since their only abilities are usually the gapclosers and then their main burst combo tools. By using up any on the spellshield, it means they either lose mobility or a good chunk of their burst.

Also, Death's Dance is getting an increase from 15% to 30% as the bleed, which will further reduce burst if you're AD.

The reason your suggestion is too extreme is that it has absolutely no relevance to the issue why Fizz is a problem. Tank Fizz couldn't give a shit about E. He tanks it and just gets off repeated W procs. AP Fizz needs the E to have any chance of survival at all. It's already extremely tough for him, when he needs to get in melee range to finish someone off. A full health ADC versus a mid or lategame Fizz won't lose any more than around 50-70% health max from the shark. The delayed W proc or the Lichbane proc with Q is what kills the ADC afterwards. But between Locket and Redemption, the ADC definitely will not die from the shark alone regardless of whether they are full health. Fizz runs/Qs in. Cool, he maybe gets the kill. Now what? He's in the middle of the entire enemy team. His E is so he has a chance of getting back out. Keep in mind, the range of the jump isn't massive either. It's only a single use tool to dodge CC or some key ability. They could just force it out and then kill him after he's forced to land anyways. AP Fizz is getting butchered by the rework and its subsequent balance changes when AP Fizz didn't need a rework.

Satisfied bud? $10 RP code emailed to [email protected] then, if you will.

Busty DemonessApr 11, 20171 votes

I'll start by saying I'm reasonably satisfied with your response on the grounds that it's civil and without insults. However, I was not looking for "item suggestions", so I'm going to disregard that section.

If Fizz has built 40% CDR (something to be expected regardless of AP or Tank), his Playful Trickster cooldown is reduced to as low as 3.6 seconds (rank 5 cooldown with 40%). That's 4 seconds for him to survive, and then he has a mobility survival skill to help him escape. And don't forget that in another 3.6 seconds, he can do it again. Do not forget that this move still breaks locked on attacks and skills.

Would you feel better if the change was simply "Playful Trickster no longer breaks locked on attacks and skills"?

MissingKayoApr 11, 20171 votes

I'm not sure how that change would work though. It's not just Playful/Trickster that does it. ANY untargetability breaks locked on attacks and skills. Same as Vlad's pool for example. Also, no untargetability breaks any previously attached TETHERS. Which is why Fizz E or Vlad W can't escape Fiddlestick's Drain for example once he first attaches it.

Where are you getting 3.6 seconds? His rank 5 cooldown is 10 seconds. 40% cooldown reduction puts it at 6 seconds.

RP Code, if you would please.

Busty DemonessApr 11, 20171 votes

Apparently the source I got the cooldown from was inaccurate, or already took it into account and I misread it.

And actually, Camille's R does not break locked on attacks/skills, and it does have the "cannot be targeted" while she's in flight. I have killed her with an MF Q/Auto just before she landed.

So, it's a short answer of coding. A locked on attack or skill is obviously constantly checking whether or not the target can be targeted while it's in flight. Part of this is due to projectiles changing their paths upon certain extreme changes. All Riot would need to do is separate the path coding from the targeting coding. Path coding shows the incoming projectile. Targeting coding determines whether or not it fires in the first place.

Do you happen to remember when Flash popped projectiles? This is basically refining the coding change that happened when they changed it.

MissingKayoApr 11, 20171 votes

Wait so how did Camille die then?

Whee, spaghetti code. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Untargetable And different types of untargetability too, xd.

The type listed for Fizz's E btw: "Partial Invulnerability: Projectiles fired before the untargetability starts will have no effect. [and then stuff about tethers and DoTs]" Are you suggesting to remove that? Where would the projectile even go though? Would it just magically float in air until Fizz came back down? The idea of untargetability is the projectile is targeted initially sure, but by going untargetable, the target disappears and thus it just fizzes out, no pun intended.

Sorry, wasn't around for that time of Flash.

~~rip rp code xd~~

Busty DemonessApr 11, 20171 votes

She died because my auto/Q was in flight before she leapt, and they landed before she did.

And yes, I'm saying stop Fizz from popping in-flight projectiles. He can continue to break aggro with his E, though. So if he gets it off and out of tower range before the tower fires a kill shot, more power to him.

Now, in terms of where the projectile would go? Pretty simple. It would still head straight for him. How will it know? Because even if he cannot be targeted for attacks skills, he is still shown because he is not removing his location. The projectile will follow him however long it needs to and eventually hit him, even if that means it hits him while he's on the pole and is then knocked down because he died.

The target itself doesn't "disappear", as you suggest. I want to compare them to flares on fighter jets, since it's overall a similar process. Flares on fighter jets confuse the missile so as to divert the lock on it already has. It's the same concept, except in this suggestion it prevents the missile from firing in the first place and would not divert the missile once it has fired.

MissingKayoApr 11, 20171 votes

Oh, that explains it. Camille's untargetability didn't last long enough to avoid the projectile. (She used it too early)

The only reason you see him is because it's a bird's eye view. From direct person point of view/FPPOV, him jumping up makes him disappear altogether. For example, MF's Q was aimed at his location before he hopped up. Regardless of whether he hopped or not, it'd pass by that point eventually just because it's still a projectile. The reason said projectile misses is because Fizz is no longer there where he used to be. He's up on the pole.

Then that's no longer untargetability, that's the issue. You are suggesting to change the very way untargetability works. Try MF Q'ing a Vlad. If he Ws before it lands, it won't hit him at all, unless he exits the pool by the time it would have normally hit him anyways. Same case with Kled or Lissandra or any other.

Now a frank question. Is there any actual reason that I did not meet your criteria for the RP? Or were you just exaggerating and being dishonest to emphasize a point? xd