Why Nerf Ivern?

l Joe Rogan l·Apr 5, 2017·3 votes·2,064 views

I'm confused as to why people have so much hatred towards Ivern. Ivern is arguably the first support jungler. He fills a niche literally no other champion currently fills. If he didn't have a high winrate in the jungle, there would be something horribly wrong with him since he wouldn't be filling his very specific but very important niche of non-botlane supports. Either he does his job and thus has a high winrate due to his entirely unique kit, or he doesn't do his job and goes back to the weird jungler with no viable strengths. Having a champion with such a unique strength of a supportive jungler is GOOD for league.

So what I am asking is, why do people think he needs nerfs? Specifically, what parts of his kits are unfair or too hard to play against?

The one thing I agree with nerfing, that no one else seems to be suggesting is nerfing his smite mechanic. He is too good at counter jungling. His strength should lie in his objective control and supportive abilities, not in screwing over the enemy jungler 24/7 with no counter play. Nerfing his smite would keep his identity as a supportive jungler intact, while removing a really big strength (but a strength that is not core to Ivern as a champion)! I am mostly worried about people wanting to rip apart his utility when that is his core identity.

That is literally the only thing, in my opinion, that is unfair about Ivern. Everything else about him has counters and weaknesses.

Personally, the only thing I think that would be really good is to introduce more support junglers into the meta. Tanks often act like supports in that they soak up damage and have CC so that the carries can deal damage safely. Because tank junglers currently have terrible clear (and other problems, hence tank rework incoming), they can't compete in terms of teamfight utility with Ivern.... but that's not Ivern's fault.

Hopefully with the tank update, Zac and Sejuani will be more relevant in the jungle and thus we can invest more CC in the jungle, thus making Ivern less dominate as the only viable supportive jungler.

TL;DR: Ivern is a support jungler, don't nerf his support abilities, nerf his counterjungling mechanic that has no reason to be so strong

13 Comments

Challenger AhriApr 6, 20175 votes

His counterjungling isn't the only problem with him. It's his constant shields, his 0 CD ult mid-late game, and his use of already broken items. Oh, I forgot to add his ability to hide Baron and Dragon. He needs to be toned down. Hopefully the nerfs he got helps. Popular pick at a 57% winrate is too much.

ChaddyFantomeApr 5, 20174 votes

Idk, maybe because the tree is op? When the rift is your own personal gold garden at the press of a button, you have CC out the ass with a Durable Summon , you have ton a slowing shields and a root that allows your whole team to gapclose on someone something's gotta give. Im sure if you branch your perspective, you will come see see that we can't leave him in his current state. The guy is just too much of a thorn in the side and we should sow the seed before they give root to the weed and it becomes too late.

l Joe Rogan lApr 5, 20171 votes

That is why I am trying to push people to critically thinking about his passive (which I agree is too strong) rather than nerf the fun parts of his kit like denying vision or jumping on people with a snare (which is pretty easy to dodge, its pretty slow).

Also, whenever I play Ivern, no one tries to counter me taking their buffs. Ever. The one or two times people have the mid laner and jungle rush to the buff I'm trying to get, I get screwed over and either blow a flash or die. He is super weak to invades, but people just go the traditional jungle route of getting your own jungle on the first clear rather than adjusting to the fact that the enemy is an Ivern. Maybe part of the problem is people not knowing how to counter an Ivern (he is rather new in the meta).

So, yes, I agree! Please nerf his passive but keep the fun parts of his kit intact. That would help so much without screwing him over.

Daisy falls off late game, she melts under pressure and now she has no health regen out of combat (a good change), if the ADC can't reach my team because of Daisy, then just kill daisy. Also, the CC is heavily telegraphed and avoidable. Remove daisy's speed buff that she get's right when she spawns to make her easier to kite?

Do things like reducing the snare's duration by .1-.2 seconds, or lowering the slow by 10% at all levels, lowering his mana/health regen growth, removing daisy's speed boost she gets right when she spawns, things like that. I just hate when people nuke a champion just because the meta is in their favour.

Also, I appreciate your puns. Thank you.

MissingKayoApr 5, 20173 votes

It's almost like his utility is too fucking strong?

l Joe Rogan lApr 5, 20171 votes

Adding a 1-2 seconds to his shield would drastically change the utility of Ivern without breaking his core thematic, but I see people suggesting really aggressive changes to his w (arguably his least problematic ability), like the heavily nerfed W range on the PBE, that don't address the real problems with Ivern. I just feel like now that the tree man is finally viable, and after he receives nerfs to Daisy, suddenly out of the blue people want him nerfed into the ground just because pros realize he isn't trash.

Look at morgana. She has way more damage, a longer snare, a W that does damage instead of denying vision, and a shield that is better than Ivern's (it blocks CC and is bigger), and her ult is consistent CC rather than Ivern's "hopefully they let daisy hit them 3 times" CC. But she isn't broken, I don't think. What about Ivern makes him broken? Just his passive is a bit too strong, I think.

What specifically about his utility is too strong? Other supports have more CC, or more tankiness, or more engage, or disengage.

ned the kledApr 5, 20172 votes

coz lvl 1 invades op

l Joe Rogan lApr 5, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=ned the kled,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=b1ZpRAXb,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-04-05T19:50:56.767+0000)

coz lvl 1 invades op

Do you think nerfing his smite would help with lvl 1 invades? It would give people time to react to the inevitable Ivern invade.

Also, I've never understood why mid laners don't ward the river that Ivern would come through, Ivern can't take the buff if a mid laner and the jungle is there to basic attack him while channeling, and he only realistically has a snare at lvl1, so Ivern wouldn't be able to fight back. Also, a five-man invade to blue buff really messes Ivern up, because he can't really fight back and no one leashes and Ivern so he would be unguarded. Also Ivern first clear without blue buff is literally 3 jungle creatures and then no mana. He is easy to screw over in that way.

ned the kledApr 6, 20171 votes

also i mean like come on i can get lvl 2 and instantly gank mid or top, and burn some summs or even get a kill

l Joe Rogan lApr 6, 20171 votes

But everyone expects the level 2 Ivern gank. It isn't surprising, so just ward the bush he would walk through and let the wave push towards you at first. If you have to flash from a gank you knew was coming, you misplayed. I think a big part of the problem is people don't know how to deal with Ivern. Ignore the first wave and let it push, and then run to the buff that your jungler didn't start at (a lvl 1 Ivern can only root, I can't think of any top laners who can die to a level 1 Ivern), which would prevent Ivern from stealing the buff, 6 CS isn't going to be the difference between a win or a loss but burning a flash or dying defiantly could let a snowball happen. People are just so stuck in the routine they don't think about how easy it is to annoy a level 1/2 ivern.

But yes, his smite mechanic lets him hit level 2 way earlier than others, thus it should be nerfed. But dumb things like reducing the W range do nothing to help the problems with Ivern and only hurt Ivern for no reason.

LyingOnLineApr 5, 20172 votes

Because he's fucking broken, dunkass.

l Joe Rogan lApr 5, 20172 votes

Thank you for the specific points you made in regard to his kit, I will critically think about the changes you suggest and get back to you on that.

BatursusApr 6, 2017

There's this thing. he has High winrate, it's pretty impossible to kill anyone on his team due to the items/kit/cdr. (give me an example of botlane support who can save whole team alone and has the same winrate?) The cc and amount of shields is slightly ridiculous. Nerfing him is a MUST for jungle to have balance.

l Joe Rogan lApr 6, 20171 votes

At max level, Sona can heal 2 people for 115 (+25% AP) and give potentially 5 people a 130 (+30%AP) shield every 6 seconds. Most Sona's build at least a little AP. And she deals a ton of damage with her q, ult and passive. Ivern can give a 190 (+80% AP) shield every 8 seconds. Most Ivern's don't build AP, support+tank is more common. Ivern's don't really deal damage unless they build AP or on-hit.

The thing is, Ivern is a support but with a jungler's budget. Since most support items are based around a very low gold income, he gets ahead than most supports, and has more items earlier than other junglers.

I think lowering his base values but increasing his scaling would encourage people to buy AP. Kinda like how galio was dealing damage even as a full tank, so they lowered his base values but increased his scaling so people have to buy AP if they want the damage. They should push Ivern to need a little AP (like they are trying to do with galio) so he can't be so tanky and have so much shielding power, because right now Ivern just goes support/tank with very little AP.