Even Fizz mains won't play Fizz now.

Opistach·Feb 1, 2015·9 votes·6,313 views

http://www.twitch.tv/fatefalls

He doesn't even want to play him now it seems, even going AD Fizz due to these changes. Please revert, he doesn't even feel like an assassin anymore, he NEEDS to use E in order to burst with ult combo because his Q is so weak. Leaving him a sitting duck in fights.

Also with the lack of DFG in his build he has to either build weaker items to get his old amount of cdr, or has has to substitute it for power, especially for Mpen boots now just to have decent burst instead of bursting while having CDR.

Feel free to give feedback, but I don't like it. I tested these on live and on PBE, can't say I am satisfied with the changes. Now Fizz is like Zed without and escape plan.

EDIT:

This thread is so old and downvoted; How are people still commenting on it?

74 Comments

SEKAIFeb 1, 20157 votes

An assassin that has risks and needs to use brain to kill for once?

DEAR LORD Y U DO DIS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Hahahaha no Fizz in the game anymore for me? Good I don't want to see him anyway.

Fizz doesn't even build DFG daily so idk what's the the complaint tbh. And don't you expect all assassins to be like that broken piece of shat called Zed, just don't, it's better that way trust me.

OpistachFeb 1, 20155 votes

Then hear me on why this nerf makes me upset in the first place; unlisted.

Fizz is not near as big of a problem as Zed, and unlike Zed, Fizz has had hefty nerfs in the past dealt to his scaling, little compensation, and lichbane has been smacked.

Why nerf Fizz before Zed or Lee? I don't get it.

SEKAIFeb 1, 20151 votes

While Lee and Zed need a nerf first, it is not saying that Fizz doesn't need to be dealt with. It's just Riot is refusing to touch the previous 2.

A near perfect Assassin should be someone like Yi tbh, his kit is very limited but still offers some outplay potential, he has clear and easily exploited weaknesses and at the same time high scaling strength if played right. Whenever he is assassinating someone, he has to be committed, since if he wishes to get out he needs to at least kill 1 guy to even think about surviving or the next target. He dies to anything if got caught as well, same applies to when he is fed unless extremely so.

That's great.

Unlike Fizz who can just try infinitely until he gets a kill, then repeat that until he can 1 shot everybody, that's not fun, at least to anyone who isn't a Lee or Zed playing against you.

OpistachFeb 1, 20151 votes

He can still do this same thing.

Only if he does commit he has to commit now more than ever, and he can't escape after he gets a kill like Yi, he sits there and takes hits until E is back up.

SEKAIFeb 1, 20151 votes

Yi doesn't always escape when he killed somebody, because he has to run all the way out (or burn a flash), or he can choose to go back in and hopefully kill everybody or make them so scared they run away as he can only heal so much and it's interruptible while being open for grievous wound effects.

Fizz has invulnerability + gapcloser that has a cd going from 16 to 8, and most Fizz uses Q to engage (which is his Another gap closer) while prob use E to secure but he doesn't NEED to because %hp damage, let's not mention his ulti, giant hitbox and strong cc, there is no way his level of commitment is on the same level as any actual assassin that involves any kind of risk in the kit.

OpistachFeb 1, 20153 votes

Now he has to land his ult, Initiate with W,Q, then E and AA them to death. His Q does no damage. ALso what you say about Yi is entirely true; yes. I think he is the healthiest assassin in the game. But FIzz is a snowball, or he waits till late game usually. Now his late game has been merked and he HAS to find a way to snowball. Unless fed early his Q's damage is useless all game now. :L

KüramaFeb 1, 20151 votes

Agreed.

DrakzulFeb 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

While Lee and Zed need a nerf first, it is not saying that Fizz doesn't need to be dealt with. It's just Riot is refusing to touch the previous 2.

A near perfect Assassin should be someone like Yi tbh, his kit is very limited but still offers some outplay potential, he has clear and easily exploited weaknesses and at the same time high scaling strength if played right. Whenever he is assassinating someone, he has to be committed, since if he wishes to get out he needs to at least kill 1 guy to even think about surviving or the next target. He dies to anything if got caught as well, same applies to when he is fed unless extremely so.

That's great.

Unlike Fizz who can just try infinitely until he gets a kill, then repeat that until he can 1 shot everybody, that's not fun, at least to anyone who isn't a Lee or Zed playing against you.

Yi... Assassin... No. Just no. The problem I'm seeing with Fizz is that he has just replaced ahris assassin spot. But instead of having a 10 sec "charm" it has a fucking minute+ cd. That's garbage.

Leaf of the lakeFeb 1, 20151 votes

An assassin should not be a champ that is capable of 1v5 - under any circumstances, fed or otherwise. For that reason, yi is not a healthy assassin, and neither is katarina, nor akali (although she just got nerfed, I dunno how much that hit her). You want a healthy assassin? Talon. Rengar. Kha'zix. Even leblanc, with her endless safety. These guys do their job of killing one target without a ton of incidental damage to the rest of your team. They may have an escape (and if you're leblanc, it might even be tied with zed for best escape in the game), but at least they aren't taking whole teams down.

They've made fizz much healthier to play against now by making him unable to 1v5. The problem is, it's come at the cost of his ability to do his job of eliminating one target. I'd much rather fight a fed fizz now than a fed... almost any other assassin. Which is saying something, because before, fizz was pretty high up there on my list of fed ~~one-man armies~~ assassins I never want to fight, along with akali, katarina, and yi.

I would consider fizz more of a split pusher now. He's got strong dueling capabilities and great escape options, but his damage doesn't come down fast enough to be a good assassin in the middle of a group of enemies.

SEKAIFeb 1, 20151 votes

Your definition of assassin makes me scratch my head because you know exact what's up with their kits.

Stealth, strong waveclear, 1 shots where you don't even see coming, full resets, endless mobility. Are these the examples of "healthiness"? Colour me shocked.

Yi has to kill people 1 after another WITH HIS AA unless he is so incredibly fed he kills people by simply pressing 1 of them with alpha strike, if that is the case you only have yourself to blame don't say Yi shouldn't have that power when he is 10+ kills ahead of everyone else. Also you should totally see how fast Yi dies to anything unless ofc again, if he is incredibly fed.

Kat again, doesn't reach her stage if you simply remember to save a single hard cc on her, unless ofc yet again, if she is incredibly fed.

See the trend? If you still don't believe me, try running those 2 into all 1v3, 1v4 and 1v5 situations, as long as it's Silver or higher matches and see what I mean you will be surprised how fast those 2 actually dies as long as there is any cc on the board that isn't a slow.

Akali is simply of bad champion design, her 1 - 5 is bad, just atrocious. But if she somehow gets a lead there is no way to stop her since her entire kits revolves COMPLETELY around gaining higher stats than the enemies which is exactly what buying items get you. So I would agree that Akali is actually a bad example of assassins, however not the other 2.

Leaf of the lakeFeb 1, 20151 votes

You're right, you don't usually see many true 1v5s. However, what usually ends up happening is their team presents just enough of a threat that if you focus down the assassin, you die to their team. If you don't, you die to the assassin.

As for the assassins I listed...

Rengar: Very easily countered by grouping. If anyone has a quickly executed CC, he's effectively negated and killed. His strength is in the early and mid game, before people group, by snowballing lanes. Talon: If he gets very fed, he can use his ult as an escape. Often ends up having to use it to secure a kill instead. KZ: Damage is low unless target is isolated. He actually tends to build more bruiser as a result, since otherwise he just blows up in teamfights. His ult is annoying, but I honestly don't mind this champ much. LB: Admittedly, I can't stand this champ. Every minute, she gets a free safety net from her passive that makes her inordinately difficult to kill, even when she gets caught. Not dying against her requires staying very far outside of her range, but if she isn't using her distortion to damage you, you can usually survive long enough to at least react. Her passive is very poorly designed and should never have been put in the game, but I'd still rather play against a fed LB than a fed akali, katarina, or yi. If they're not fed, though, I'd much rather take the yi.

Malix FarwinFeb 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

An assassin needs to use brain to kill for once?

DEAR LORD Y U DO DIS NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Hahahaha no Fizz in the game anymore for me? Good I don't want to see him anyway.

Fizz doesn't even build DFG daily so idk what's the the complaint tbh. And don't you expect all assassins to be like that broken piece of shat called Zed, just don't, it's better that way trust me.

it is fine that you personally do not like a champion but i am against any champion being unviable.Current fizz brings nothing to the table, you are literally better off picking any other assassin.

SEKAIFeb 1, 20152 votes

Tell that to the gigantic list of currently unviable/near unviable champs.

I am personally all for nerfing the popular champs at least you get someone else on the table for once, and potentially trade 1 broken dominating pick for 5 other lesser picks who were previously pressured out of game, why wouldn't you wanna do that?

Not to mention Fizz is far from being gutted so I have no trouble taking it either.

A LiberalFeb 1, 20153 votes

Current fizz brings nothing to the table, you are literally better off picking any other assassin.

Evelynn item 3070

OpistachFeb 1, 20151 votes

Eve is a better tank/fighter than she is an assassin right now.

DrCyanideFeb 1, 20151 votes

Perhaps a Tank Fizz build is the best way to go right now. After all, his passive does help him against jungle monsters/ADC's.

MPendragonFeb 1, 20156 votes

Honestly, it's about time they nerfed his burst. Fizz was single handedly the most banned champion at my MMR (regardless of what that is). The only champion i've ever seen banned more often was Amumu in season 2, which is odd because they haven't really nerfed or buffed him since then?

Doing an analysis on Fizz even though i've never played him.

Leap? Check. Leap up onto pogo stick for temporary invulnerability? Check. Dash further after using that? Check Application of Grievous Wounds on a relatively frequent basis? Check A Skillshot ult which follows the person wherever they go and blasts in an AoE? Check

Easy itemization into a Zhonya's, which synergizes perfectly with him as you can easily combo in ability cooldowns so that you have quite the survivability, even though you rarely build into it.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to hate on anyone's champion, but Fizz really had to go. He was I hate to say it God-Tier.

OpistachFeb 1, 20152 votes

FIzz's ban rate was actually relatively low, especially in higher ELO's. Average you could say. Why not nerfed Zed accordingly who 'had' 80% ban rate or something?

Neo CyrusFeb 1, 20153 votes

Bullshit. Last I checked it was 50%+ at Gold, 50%+ at Plat, 40-50s consistently at Diamond, and Masters/Challenger was too small of a sample to ever bother check. Fizz is always banned at high Gold/low Plat where I've been playing.

Fizz is finally close to being balanced, the reason his win rate dropped so hard is because the skill-less tools are still trying to play him and failing hard. Now they finally have to learn how to play or give up on Fizz. If those who actually know how to play Fizz relatively properly only play him I'm sure his win rate would be over 50.

Juggernaut628Feb 1, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Neo Cyrus,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=aosf7Kep,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2015-02-01T15:56:10.857+0000)

Bullshit. Last I checked it was 50%+ at Gold, 50%+ at Plat, 40-50s consistently at Diamond, and Masters/Challenger was too small of a sample to ever bother check. Fizz is always banned at high Gold/low Plat where I've been playing.

Fizz is finally close to being balanced, the reason his win rate dropped so hard is because the skill-less tools are still trying to play him and failing hard. Now they finally have to learn how to play or give up on Fizz. If those who actually know how to play Fizz relatively properly only play him I'm sure his win rate would be over 50.

I do agree since I have done a lot better now with new Fizz than earlier new Fizz as I figured out how to play him after about 5-7 games. He has a lot better potential to win lane once he reaches level 6 so he is pretty much Akali: once you get level 6, do ham and cheese.

Juggernaut628Feb 1, 20155 votes

You guys realize Fizz is still fine.

Malix FarwinApr 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You guys realize Fizz is still fine.

not so sure about that and here is my reasoning. After the change his win rate was constantly dropping to the point where it was 44% and still dropping till people figured out AD fizz. Then it got to about 47%. Now with the AD nerf it is no tell what will happen just yet. I would still assume people will still play him AD simply because it will still be leaps and bounds better then AP. Have to build a full AP build to be just as effective as a 2 item build ad fizz pre-nerf so maybe fizz will just have to build 1 extra ad item

Zair UmbrasFeb 1, 20152 votes

You can check my ranked games with Fizz. I'm in Gold, not Silver or Bronze and it's still working juuuuuust fine. Fizz is required to use his R early on to kill, level his E and land it properly for actual damage, then follow up with a W+AA+Q. You also have to actually rush a Lichbane instead of throwing your R and a DFG and laughing as the person is instagibbed.

Juggernaut628Feb 1, 20152 votes

Fizz is still fine. As a Fizz main I was skeptical about it too. I figured out how to do my old trick pre-rework and get first blood by diving right on them once u reach level 3 or 4. His rework is better as he can get a kill at level 6 as long as it lands. People just wish either he didn't have E or that his Q did damage again. Though his Q does no damage, his E and R make up for it and his W that people are complaining about was nerfed. It used to be the 4%-8% missing health as the passive and not the active so Fizz has to have mana in order to do it which he is very hungry of early and late game. Just learn how to go Fizz top if you want a safe route out as top is easier as Fizz than mid now.

OpistachFeb 1, 20152 votes

But that's not good!!!

Yes, he can do his old burst IF his Fizz lands. It 90% of the time goes right through em' because League hit boxes. But you also HAVE to use E now for damage because his Q does absolutely NO damage. You are a sitting duck for 8-16 secs (with no cd) once you use it. This is basically death row in League.

Champs like Kha are still viable like this because they have resets after kills. Fizz has to wait stuff out now. 8-16 seconds that the fish is completely defenseless.

You shouldn't have to rely on your most defensive ability for damage when they rest of your kit does nothing while it is down.

Killer X 12Feb 1, 20152 votes

A champ who can put out damage without taking any in return (by timing his E correctly) should not be able to freely kill champions of equal or higher level without his ult. Moving his damage to his ult changes it so that Fizz has to work like other Assassins like Talon and Zed where they have very high kill potential when their ult is up, and much lower when it is down. These champs are not going to 100-0 your carry and then get out free literally every second of the game. Only when their ult is up, and to a lot of people even that is too often.

OpistachFeb 1, 20152 votes

Zed is exactly this.

Talon has issues.

Fizz was healthy before, maybe needing some CDR tunage on his E to keep him from spamming it so much.

I honestly don't know what they will do about Talon, I love that guy as well!

Killer X 12Feb 1, 20151 votes

I currently have no issue with Talon. His silence is now a slow so there is actually counterplay (something the Fizz E doesn't have).

If i had been reworking fizz i'd of done 1 of 2 things. 1: Lower Q damage, Keep w, change E completely to something that just avoids CC but does not make him untagetable, add a bit of damage and adjust hitbox of ult.

(if i was changing him from where he is RIGHT NOW then ->)2: Raise Q damage, lower W damage, Double E cd, keep Ult with the DFG-ish effect.

asktiksFeb 1, 20152 votes

Good he can join poppy in the "never to be played unless reworked " tier

im glad we barely see him in games now, makes playing a match against him miserable regardless if you win or lose or the guy playing fizz is good or bad, its still irritatin as all hell to play against fizz and im glad hes trash tier currently

OpistachFeb 3, 20151 votes

And you like playing against Zed?

Juggernaut628Feb 1, 20151 votes

The only thing is that Fizz has to use Zhonya's or else diving into a teamfight will kill him. If it is a 1v1, Fizz will win if he lands his R and if he knows how to play. And if he has sheen. You need sheen.

OpistachFeb 1, 20152 votes

This is precisely what is happening to Fizz.

Killer X 12Feb 1, 20151 votes

While i think the nerfs hit Fizz quite hard, I am of the belief that most people who mained fizz mained him because of his kit (obviously right?) and his damage. He still has the kit, but he has less damage. He can still 100-0 people, he just needs his ult. He can't just q with his w on, auto you, e, then auto you again and you die.

I'll admit i disliked fizz as a champion, but i would never turn away from facing a fizz in lane, because although i consider him to be a bullshit champ he wasn't actually OP or anything. He was just cheap.

Now he doesn't feel anywhere near as fun to play, and there are better champs that do the same thing as him. You can get more damage AND more CC in other places now. As much as i hate fizz, i cannot be glad there are less people playing him...since he is so easy to kill now lol. BUT i think he should get a bit of his damage back, the little shit is just too weak now.

OpistachFeb 1, 20152 votes

But that is what Fizz must be. He is the "tidal trickster!" He is supposed to be cheap, and annoying. As a rioter stated 'Fizz is meant to be annoying and slippery so that when you catch he brat the kill is even more satisfying.' I don't know how Fizz could ever have that title if he didn't have such an annoyingly well set up kit. I use Fizz for his kit. But I love Fizz for everything, most perfectly set-up champ I think they have ever created. He fits his lore well, his kit synergies. Why harm something so special?

Killer X 12Feb 1, 20151 votes

I'm sorry, but trying to preserve an image of a fictional character as someone who is "supposed to be annoying" at the expense of any and all players who do not play him is bad for a game. The image of fizz does not > people trying to have fun. Cheap isn't fun for anyone else except the fizz.

Similar to old Teemo shrooms, shit was cheap as hell. Ward the entire map with no limit on shrooms or time limit on each one, and they had twice the AP ratio they do now. Annoying, regardless of champion is not justification for a "cheap" kit.

OpistachFeb 1, 20152 votes

Remember how they never did anything to actually gave the community what they wanted in order to deter the teemo shroom issue?

They nerfed his AP ratio, ohh, cool! WHo cares!

I'd rather have oracles back instead of just not taking as much damage...

Killer X 12Feb 1, 20151 votes

There is a time limit on shrooms now. You upgrade the red trinket to get a short duration oracles. Old shrooms could hit you for 1k and you'd have to back after one of them mid game, and late game if u were a soft carry. While i still see people picking Teemo to be extremely disrespectful, he is better than he was.

Saulito SenpaiFeb 1, 20151 votes

Look at my match history and tell me he is dead.

Bro i even jungled AP Fizz and I stil hard carried.

Gtfo

KüramaFeb 1, 20152 votes

You played one game after the nerf and you're talking, please. Play 10 more, if you win all ten then I'll withdraw my argument.

Juggernaut628Feb 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You played one game after the nerf and you're talking, please. Play 10 more, if you win all ten then I'll withdraw my argument.

What are the chances that his team knows what they are doing 10 games in a row?

KüramaFeb 3, 20151 votes

I didn't say in a row. And yea, there are the occasional feeders / trolls / afks / noobs, so I'll cater for that - if he wins at least 10 out of 15 games.

DoraTheBrownFeb 1, 20151 votes

no1 likes fizz ok

OpistachFeb 1, 20152 votes

That is imbecilic.

Does that mean every champ you dislike should be smacked with a bat?

DoraTheBrownFeb 1, 20151 votes

well i never played fizz or with any fizz this patch so idk how he is right now and i dun leik the old fish he made me sad

OpistachFeb 1, 20153 votes

He did for many a people.

Old Fizz was still sort of too much, I honestly don't see how other than his ability to have E up every 4.8 seconds.

But new Fizz is just sooooooo weak!!

DoraTheBrownFeb 1, 20151 votes

meybe 1 day he will get buffed

Juggernaut628Feb 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He did for many a people.

Old Fizz was still sort of too much, I honestly don't see how other than his ability to have E up every 4.8 seconds.

But new Fizz is just sooooooo weak!!

Fizz is a lot weaker, but in early team fights he can have a huge impact. Mid and late game he won't do much.

Malix FarwinApr 10, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He did for many a people.

Old Fizz was still sort of too much, I honestly don't see how other than his ability to have E up every 4.8 seconds.

But new Fizz is just sooooooo weak!!

i think ive would of been okay with an E CD nerf where as if he used it to go in he couldnt readily use it to get out but now if you go AP you are plain useless if you ult isnt up AND you dont have the mana for QWER combo. Just pray noone build Zhonyas or QSS then you are really screwed.

Juggernaut628Feb 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

That is imbecilic.

Does that mean every champ you dislike should be smacked with a bat?

That is what he is saying as he doesn't like going against Fizz, presumably because he plays melee champions mid who Fizz actually can lane against.

Stoned Lil TreeApr 9, 20151 votes

Wow, its so ennoying how people without any idea of that champion are talking like they should be playing LCS with Fizz. I scrolled down the Discussion and like 90 per cent of the people are just talking without any understanding of the game or a group setup (pro. and con. fizz changes). I play Fizz main since good 2-3 years now and from my point of view, champions like Fizz, Akali and Kassadin got killed by riot (in higher elo) for the sake of casual player. They are the sacrifice for keeping the game easy enough that bronze/silver solo queue wont rent 2 much about assasins.

My argue-points: -First off, we have to get something straight: I am talking about ap-assassin-fizz. He can offer mainly glasscanon-, solo target dmg and re-positioning -> assassin-characteristics. He is not an carry with reliable dps or a bruiser with much disruption/control.

-Did u guys ever asked urself why fizz wasnt played in championpools of high elo player ever? Its because he was midtier regarding winning/ending 5v5-Teamgames in every patch until probably the now patched AS-bruiser fizz-changes and thats a fact (go watch lcs and high-elo-stream recordings if u dont believe me). Fizzes chances to carry the game as an melee ap-assassin gets lowered every minute after lvl 6, because he has to get ahead to be relevant in lategame and end the game before maxing items. (Team 5v5 has longer avarage games then solo because of lower solo carry potential)

-So what about solo-ranked? The problem with solo ranked is the lack of teamplay and communication. I played almost every elo with different accounts in euw now and i have to say that playing assasins is OP in bronze/silver, just because the role of an assasins want fullfill is so easy 2 achieve against unorganised opponents. But if u climb up the elo-ladder facing better organised teams, who wont let 1v1 fighting against other carries, will crush you as assasins. Thats why assassins have to get ahead in early-mid game for carrying and without dfg this isnt as easy as it sounds in higher elo(plat/dia). -> Regarding the 2 ONLY PERIODS, some month before (as ap-assassin) and some weeks after dfg-remove-patch (as AS-Bruiser), he actually was top-tier in solo-ranked ONLY in Bronze/Silver, like almost every assassin normally is(higher solo-snowball-potential).

-About the "broken" mechanic of fizz e -> Its the only ability who can make fizz work as an late assasin 1 w-q combo never ever kills an adc (even without any armor/mr/hp built), thats why he NEEDS that invulnarability, he has no veigar/syndra ult in his kit. His e doesnt make him broken, he makes him competitive against other assasins in a tf-scenario. He has to be able to kill a carry, like a carry has to be able to kill a bruiser and a bruiser to kill an assasin, thats how the game is built up. If he cant be invulnerable he would die against a carry just focusing him down after his w-q burst.

-Conclusion: Is it healthy to nerf assassins so much, that bronze/silver can handle them? -> for the game targeting casual-gamer, it is (this is, what i suspect, are riots plans for LOL). ...BUT... Is it healthy for a balanced moba including Assassins(aka. anti-carrys) as a role to fullfill? -> NOOOO it is not! Riot abviously wants to get the casual-players back from HotS to play more league. And the mainpart of the community in the forums im following want to have a game ranged carrys vs. melee bruisers, without the diversity it has now....

-My suggestion to riot: Try to make ur game special, harder, and with more diversity. Casual games will lose their community much faster.. My suggestion for Fizz: Remove the latest changes about fizz. Taking away the dfg and forcing a morello's in his assassin-build nerfed him enough to be mid-tier assassin. If u think u cant remove anything, probably keep the flashable q.

PS to the forum arguments for keeping fizz: -Bann-rates of Fizz in solo-ranked were medium some month before, some weeks after dfg-removal-patch and some weeks after fizz release. The bigger part of the time for fizz as a champion were rare played and banned. (Go watch statistics on op.gg or LolKing before arguing about this.)

-Fizz has no counterplay? lol, my duo partner would screw me over every game if i would play against his leona/janna/morgana... there is so much counterplay against him, every silence, stun, exhaust totally annihalates fizz, while getting focused by a carry. Probably u think there is no counterplay because the supp/bruiser already used all the lockdown on the frontline? -> well nvm u are in the wrong elo my friend.

-For all them carries, who hate these "op" assassins: climb the ladder, they get easier to handle with a team actually playing WITH u! or better go play leona/ali/janna/morg when u face an assassin and lock em down when theyre try to snatch a carry. Its actually easy as that

greetings Chillsection