We need to talk about No Mana Champs

2Behold·Aug 4, 2015·39 votes·9,107 views

Most of the no mana champions make total sense and have a really unique feel to them like Rumble with his heat, but a few do not. Namely Riven, Katerina, Garen, and Yasuo. I don't get why these champs don't have at least energy. Each of these champs has abilities that admittedly aren't magical or anything, but they all have at least one ability that is totally unnatural. summons the might of Demacia (whatever that is), has her magic sword, can teleport, and can summon a wall of wind. Sure you could argue that somehow these techniques are just a result of their skill with their weapons, but Gangplank has mana costs and all he does is fire a gun, eat oranges, and signal a cannon barrage none of which require more skill or supernatural ability. All I am saying is could we at the very least give them energy or some form of cost on these insane abilities? Or at the very least explain why they don't need mana? (also i am aware Garen is getting a rework, but he was still a good example)

133 Comments

Shadow GilgameshAug 4, 201525 votes

I don't think they necessarily NEED to have a resource, but they don't seem to actually give up anything FOR having no resource pool.

None of them have bad kits, especially Riven and Kat, they don't have bad stats, and they don't have longer CDs compared to the average champ, Riven's Q CD starts on first cast, Garen's are pretty average, Kat's damn ult is a 45 second CD, that's one of the lowest ult CDs, etc.

2BeholdAug 4, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Shadow Gilgamesh,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZtA1x46d,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-08-04T04:02:43.333+0000)

I don't think they necessarily NEED to have a resource, but they don't seem to actually give up anything FOR having no resource pool.

None of them have bad kits, especially Riven and Kat, they don't have bad stats, and they don't have longer CDs compared to the average champ, Riven's Q CD starts on first cast, Garen's are pretty average, Kat's damn ult is a 45 second CD, that's one of the lowest ult CDs, etc.

I agree, it just bothers me that although they are well designed champs otherwise they lack the price every other champion has to pay in some way.

Blkninjar87Aug 4, 20152 votes

...how many top laners have mana and longer CDs than riven? Darius ? Or Olaf ... Cause I'm pretty sure they don't lol not to mention dat dot/true damage... Speaking of damage do u think armor works vs riven? Considering she can't afford to build any and um.... She only does physical damage

Ancestor007Aug 4, 20155 votes

Kat's ult is 45 at rank 3. 1 and 2, it's way higher. Just felt the need to point that out

Sozan5Aug 4, 201511 votes

Actually, Garen is gated pretty heavily by his cooldowns.

Q - 8 seconds, but starts only after he attacked with it, or it run out (this usually adds several seconds to the cooldown, up to 4,5 seconds if you are using it to run away). W - 24 to 20 seconds based on rank. E - 13 to 9 seconds based on rank, but starts only after he ends spinning (so in general add 3 seconds to it). R - 120 to 80 seconds cooldown. This one is pretty standard, but it was buffed heavily recently.

Apex LiarAug 4, 20159 votes

There is a backstory and a reason for everything in League Of Legends.

"...don't have at least energy." _ Im assuming so it limits their ability to spam? Energy is a unique trait to Ninjas/Monks in League of Legends, if Katarina, Garen, Yasuo etc. use energy, it then takes away the identity of Ninjas in League Of Legends._

"...admittedly aren't magical or anything, but they all have at least one ability that is totally unnatural." _Magic exist in the world of Runeterra, news flash, that's where EVERY champion in League is from. So that's why Garen create a giant magical sword to penetrate you with, Katarina can teleport, and Yasuo can summon a wall of wind. _

"...none of which require more skill or supernatural ability." Gangplank also has bonuses that the manaless champions don't have. If gangplank kills a unit with his E, he gets bonus gold. Every manaless champion you named also has to use their ultimate ability situationally. Garen would most likely use it on a champion with low HP, same with Riven and Kat. Yasuo can only use his ult on a champion that is Airborne. If GP's ult didn't cost mana, then he could use it to ult top lane if the wave is getting big and then tell his team not to fight until his ult comes back up. Very little counter play to that.

2BeholdAug 4, 20154 votes

{quoted}

There is a backstory and a reason for everything in League Of Legends.

"...don't have at least energy." _ Im assuming so it limits their ability to spam? Energy is a unique trait to Ninjas/Monks in League of Legends, making Katarina, Garen, Yasuo etc. use energy takes away the identity of Ninjas in League Of Legends._

"...admittedly aren't magical or anything, but they all have at least one ability that is totally unnatural." _Magic exist in the world of Runeterra, news flash, that's where EVERY champion in League is from. So that's why Garen create a giant magical sword to penetrate you with, Katarina can teleport, and Yasuo can summon a wall of wind. _

"...none of which require more skill or supernatural ability." Gangplank also has bonuses that the manaless champions don't have. If gangplank kills a unit with his E, he gets bonus gold. Every manaless champion you named also has to use their ultimate ability situationally. Garen would most likely use it on a champion with low HP, same with Riven and Kat. Yasuo can only use his ult on a champion that is Airborne. If GP's ult didn't cost mana, then he could use it to ult top lane if the wave is getting big and then tell his team not to fight until his ult comes back up. Very little counter play to that.

I don't mean they need energy, i just think they should have some kind of cost. I see your point on the benefits to ability though. Also i am not saying Gangplank should do without mana i am just saying if he needs it they need it. All of the other no mana champions have some form of cost, Vlad, Mundo, Aatrox, Zac, and Mordekaiser use health, some of the other champions use fury, and then as i mentioned Rumble has heat. All of them have some form of cost that prevents them from spamming abilities without their being some kind of price.

MatezoideAug 4, 20158 votes

Garen doesnt have a resource because his CDs are fucking massive, has a fairly meh kit and doesnt scale very well in the late game.

He is literally the one resourceless champion that actually pays for it. His Ult CD at level 3 is 80...compare that to Riven's 50, Kat's 45 and Yasuo's 30.

destiny fanAug 4, 20158 votes

Balance =/= Logic

Garen Garen is not gated on mana because his laning would become impossible and he would suffer the "Warwick" syndrome, aka only jungle because you need blue to exist, altough his lore gives us some insight on his "manalesness", he's relentless and doesn't get tired aka he has mana but it never runs out

Katarina has one of the worst laning phases and farming in the game, akali has an easier time farming, she's also meele, you could say "well fizz is meele too!" fizz can become untargeteable and has more mobility, this is most likely a pure balance thing, from a lore standpoint, her teleport could be a Martial Arts thingy

Yasuo Yasuo has a bad lanning phase too, even worse than Kat. Also he needs loads of farm, 2 items to be relevant, he needs both a item 3087 and a item 3031 to be userful, from a lore standpoint his abilities come from his sword mastery, watch some anime for a further explanation on this

YCitizenSnipsYAug 4, 201516 votes

Having a bad laning phase isn't a trade off for being manaless, Kassadin has a weak laning phase but still has a resource to maintain. I want to know an actual weakness of manaless champions exclusive to them, like how running out of mana is a weakness exclusive to all mana users.

NarasimhaAug 4, 20157 votes

Riven - Her health regen. It's not a joke to say she has truly abysmal health regen. She gets a shield that scales with AD because she has no way of surviving otherwise. Not unless she finishes Hydra, and rushing that is typically not ideal for her. Poking her while her shield is down, or straight up out-sustaining her, destroys Riven. It's why champions like Pantheon, Trundle, and Cho are effective against her, among other reasons.

Katarina - 2 parts. First, she's a melee assassin in a ranged lane. She needs a decent advantage because she wouldn't be able to survive. She doesn't have the sustain of Akali, the poke of Zed, the CC of Ekko, the magic damage mitigation of Kassadin (who is more bruiser than assassin now, but topic for another time), or even the... trickiness(?) of Fizz. She has her poke, and a psuedo-escape. Her lack of cc is also a double blow, considering that most of her damage is in her ult. Which means either the opponent has to be low enough for her to pull it off solo, she needs a buddy to help lock down, or she's shit out of lock. The second reason is that giving her mana would be a buff to her. Imagine Kat with RoA and Seraphs. Ouch.

Yasuo - Has problems of a different sort. He's just too feast-or-famine right now. But I digress. To be honest, I haven't played Yasuo nearly enough to make a concrete explanation on him. My GUESS is that its because his damage is based around low CD low damage spammable moves. Kind of like Karthus, except that Karthus can build mana and AP with no problems. It's not that easy for AD champs. Giving him mana would make his early game worse than it is, and would delay or even weaken his late game. And Yasuo is all about the late game, don't take that away from him. It's what all melee carries are known for.

YCitizenSnipsYAug 4, 20152 votes

Let me make myself more clear, what you just gave me are individual weaknesses of specific champions. I want to know the drawback of all manaless champions. When you see a champion with mana, whether it be tank, adc, mage, or support you know the weakness they all share is a recourse that will eventually run out. What is the weakness unique to manaless champions i can look to exploit regardless of who gets locked in, cause as it stands I cant think of a single drawback they have that isn't shared with mana using champions.

NarasimhaAug 4, 20155 votes

You can't generalize champions like that. No two champions are the same, even within their class. You may as well ask "what are the drawbacks of ranged champions?" or "What's the counterplay to assassins?" Every champions is unique. Every champions has his/her/its/Taric's strengths and weaknesses. You can't expect one broad answer to hit everything.

YCitizenSnipsYAug 4, 20151 votes

All mana champions run out of mana, so i guess you can generalize. mana vs manaless is unfair and no amount of excuses will change that

NarasimhaAug 4, 20153 votes

You know what? You're right. Manaless champions need some buffs. I mean, look at all the items they can't properly build. That's just not fair to them.

item 3003 item 3174 item 3508 item 3110 item 3025 item 3100 item 3165 item 3043 item 3078 item 3027 item 3187
item 3222 item 3092

YCitizenSnipsYAug 4, 20154 votes

You know whats even worse than not being able to build those items, being forced into building those items for the mana they provide instead of having the luxury of rushing damage. I mean it must be so terrible for Kat to rush a ludens echo, or Yasuo to rush a static shiv and reach a one item damage spike, as opposed to delaying that spike for resource management.

Keep trying to convince me being manaless is worse than having mana, Yorur starting to reach more than Mr. Fantastic.

ArkenStormAug 4, 20155 votes

this is why I play Veigar, I can build mana and still have more AP than the enemy laner

MatezoideAug 4, 20153 votes

To be fair, Riven's shit health regen is new. It came from one of her numerous nerfs in Season 4. She always had the AD Scalling shield...they didnt make her resourceless because of the regen.

NarasimhaAug 4, 20152 votes

True, but she also wasn't anything special before season 4 either. Discounting the Era of Black Cleavers, anyway. Probably because Renekton was more prevalent top.

bad manner kidAug 4, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=destiny fan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZtA1x46d,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-08-04T05:14:53.450+0000)

Balance =/= Logic

Yasuo has a bad lanning phase too, even worse than Kat. Also he needs loads of farm, 2 items to be relevant, he needs both a and a to be userful, from a lore standpoint his abilities come from his sword mastery, watch some anime for a further explanation on this

If your good at Yasuo you can easily get a kill without those items. His in/out strategy with Q poke is extremely effective.

With just Statik, he can pretty much ambush any champion and kill them. With Statik+IE (early) he nearly one shots anyone.

To say he needs items to be relevant is a huge exaggeration, when he gets items he is a cancer. That said, he has his drawbacks in general over the course of the game, but he is not a weak laner.

Rico NastyAug 4, 201511 votes

People who say Yasuo is weak at any phase in the game obviously don't know what they're talking about.

destiny fanAug 4, 20154 votes

Yasuo gets destroyed by any burst mage, his laning is far from stellar, if you're having problems laning against yasuo you should consider reading some guides

YumaS2AstralAug 4, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=destiny fan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZtA1x46d,comment-id=000800020002,timestamp=2015-08-04T14:09:00.720+0000)

Yasuo gets destroyed by any burst mage, his laning is far from stellar, if you're having problems laning against yasuo you should consider reading some guides

Yasuo isn't weak early game. He is VULNERABLE. which is different. He is vulnerable because he is squishy. He must play aggressively and try to take advantage of his strong all ins during the early game. Otherwise the opponent can, and will, harass him and outscale him.

KatCraftAug 4, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=destiny fan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZtA1x46d,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-08-04T05:14:53.450+0000) Yasuo has a bad lanning phase

Haha are you kidding. Yas has one of the most obnoxious laning phases in the whole game. Extremely good at wave clearing, passive shield, windwall, and q poke makes him very hard to deal with early game. Unless you are talking about top lane Yas in which he is garbage.

Blkninjar87Aug 4, 20152 votes

And this is why u don't counter him with Ahri Ziggs and Orianna ... U wait out lvl 6 on Akali then r him to death with summoner 14 .

Or just slay him all together with Talon ...cause u know counters are real. Yasuo is a melee assasin vulnerable to other melee champs...

BetaDude40Aug 4, 20154 votes

Yes, because I can counterpick someone in blind or teambuilder.

Cenobite AzazielAug 4, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=destiny fan,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZtA1x46d,comment-id=0008,timestamp=2015-08-04T05:14:53.450+0000)

Garen is not gated on mana because his laning would become impossible and he would suffer the "Warwick" syndrome, aka only jungle because you need blue to exist, altough his lore gives us some insight on his "manalesness", he's relentless and doesn't get tired aka he has mana but it never runs out

Garen kit is pretty fine.He is dps, has a counterable sustain and can only damage you when near.

Katarina has one of the worst laning phases and farming in the game, akali has an easier time farming, she's also meele, you could say "well fizz is meele too!" fizz can become untargeteable and has more mobility, this is most likely a pure balance thing, from a lore standpoint, her teleport could be a Martial Arts thingy

Geez. Kat can farm from a distance and poke. Her sinister steel isn't gated by energy cost and gives her mobility that is almost the same as a lvl1 shroud. Her shunpoo is on lower cdthan fizz and if fizz keeps using his trickster for mobility he goes OOM really really fast. Add up to that if he keeps using trickster disengaging he's wasting his wave clear. Kat can wave clear and still shunpo at another wave or a ward.

Yasuo has a bad lanning phase too, even worse than Kat. Also he needs loads of farm, 2 items to be relevant, he needs both a and a to be userful, from a lore standpoint his abilities come from his sword mastery, watch some anime for a further explanation on this

After yasuo get's statiks your lane phase will be hell. If you are melee, it is even worse. Some players go BOTRK after statik, for the sustain, since the poke damage already is insane he gets more dps and a slow (active), so no , he doesn't need to rush IE. It sure ANOTHER great power spike but no need to rush.

bad manner kidAug 4, 20155 votes

Rumble should be penalized a LOT more for over-heating. As it stands he can basically cast flame thrower non stop and it has the range of almost everyones auto attack.

I find it nearly impossible to win a trade with Rumble without taking flamethrower damage or atleast 1 harpoon.

Other than that, mana less champions need a resource because they have infinite farming potential. Most of them are considered high pressure lane bullies, and when you can't win trades they get to farm as long as they want to with their abilities while you go OOM trying to CS at tower.

"Cooldowns" is the sorriest explanation for counter play in the game. You can do anything while abilities are on cooldown, or simply avoid using mobility to always have an out for when your damage isn't available. In the case of Yasuo/Rumble/Kat, they basically have no cooldowns so you can never avoid their burst. Riven after level 8 or so joins the no cd club as well.

JustMyBassCannonAug 4, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Most of the no mana champions make total sense and have a really unique feel to them like Rumble with his heat, but a few do not. Namely Riven, Katerina, Garen, and Yasuo. I don't get why these champs don't have at least energy. Each of these champs has abilities that admittedly aren't magical or anything, but they all have at least one ability that is totally unnatural.

Gonna stop you right there.

Game balance has nothing to do with whatever logic you can cobble together that qualifies one ability as extraordinary and another as regular.

These champions aren't manaless because of some lore logic, it's because they are balanced around being manaless. That's their intentional design.

2BeholdAug 4, 20152 votes

Yeah but why is them not having mana part of their balance as opposed to anyone else? Why do some champions need mana, energy, fury, heat, health, but these do not?

The HeraIdAug 4, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Yeah but why is them not having mana part of their balance as opposed to anyone else? Why do some champions need mana, energy, fury, heat, health, but these do not?

Usefulness, in all honesty. All of these champions are situationally good. Katarina is only good if the enemy has no cc, Garen is only useful against low enemies. Then look at someone like Talon or Renekton. Talon can do Katarina's job late game, but isn't completely dependent on snowballing, or renekton, or has Hard CC, and can do significantly more in lane and in a team fight then the garen can.

Penguin EclipseAug 4, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Forgotten Martyr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZtA1x46d,comment-id=000900000000,timestamp=2015-08-04T15:25:32.122+0000)

Usefulness, in all honesty. All of these champions are situationally good. Katarina is only good if the enemy has no cc, Garen is only useful against low enemies. Then look at someone like Talon or Renekton. Talon can do Katarina's job late game, but isn't completely dependent on snowballing, or renekton, or has Hard CC, and can do significantly more in lane and in a team fight then the garen can.

One could make the same argument about being situationally good for any champion though.

JustMyBassCannonAug 4, 20154 votes

Why do some champions have stronger defense steroids than others? Why do some mages have higher burst ratios than others? Why do some marksmen have higher potential DPS than others?

Different kits, different benefits. Some deal with mana gating at the benefit of a lot more power or stronger late-game. Others, mana doesn't actually gate them, other than making it so they can't stay forever during the first run in laning phase.

YCitizenSnipsYAug 4, 20154 votes

Mana is never a benefit and thats the problem, you cant tell me a single mana using champion that would be weaker without mana. The fact that EVERY mana user has to worry about maintaining a resource on top of other weaknesses just makes playing against a manaless champion out right unfun.

Kat an Yi are both assassins with resets and no cc, but one of them runs out of mana. Riven and Fiora are both combo reliant glass cannon fighters, but one of them runs out of mana.

There is no single unique weakness of a manaless champion, you can always find their weaknesses on a mana using champion. As it stands manaless champions don't give up anything for one of the most powerful advantages you can give a kit. Its about time they get punished for being manaless, like you get punished for having mana.

JustMyBassCannonAug 4, 20152 votes

Mana is not a benefit--outside of mana scaling effects--but it's only ever a temporary drawback.

Tell me, how often late-game do you recall because you're out of mana on any mana-based champion, whether or not you buy mana items?

YCitizenSnipsYAug 4, 20152 votes

Your realize the majority of mana cost in the game increase with levels don't you, making it to late game doesn't suddenly make mana gating go away. Champions back late game all the time for running out of mana, what good are you in a siege when your oom, what good are you in a teamfight if your oom. How smart is it to stick around and force objectives if your oom.

Also I want to know if mana gating is such a small issue as you put it, then why don't manaless champions have mana. Cant they just do what mana users do and build mana regen? Other than Kat there isn't a single manaless user whose kit becomes completely worthless with the addition of mana, since building around mana is apparently such an easy thing to do.

JustMyBassCannonAug 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Your realize the majority of mana cost in the game increase with levels don't you, making it to late game doesn't suddenly make mana gating go away.

You realize that the lowest mana per-level stat still gains more max mana than any non-ultimate skill gains in mana cost per rank, correct? And there are just as many skills where the mana cost stays the same at every rank, and even some where the mana cost goes down.

Again. Different champions, different benefits.

Making it to late game actually does pretty much eliminate mana gating. You go from spending 1/4-1/2 your pool to about 1/8, never mind that innate mana regen is a thing that exists and scales in the late-game.

Champions back late game all the time for running out of mana, what good are you in a siege when your oom, what good are you in a teamfight if your oom. How smart is it to stick around and force objectives if your oom.

No, I didn't say that people wouldn't recall if they were out of mana. What I said was that, in late-game, you don't run out of mana often enough for it to be the main reason people recall; far more often, it is to buy items or because they are low on health instead.

Also I want to know if mana gating is such a small issue as you put it, then why don't manaless champions have mana. Cant they just do what mana users do and build mana regen? Other than Kat there isn't a single manaless user whose kit becomes completely worthless with the addition of mana, since building around mana is apparently such an easy thing to do.

Not that you're going to listen, but I didn't say mana-gating is not an issue. I said it is an early-game balancing device. More literally, I said it was only a problem for the early-game. To put a resource system on the current manaless champions, you would need to compensate, either by having the mana costs 100% pointless, or by giving them stronger kits overall.

I mean, why the fuck else would Clarity be considered a noob trap summoner spell?

YCitizenSnipsYAug 5, 20151 votes

Really all this time and all of that and you still don't answer my question? Ok having mana is an early game problem, being manaless is a never game problem. How is that fair.

How is it fair that no matter what champ you pick if they uses mana their at a disadvantage other champions don't even have to concern themselves with. What does Yasuo give up for being manaless, what does Riven give up for being manaless. What weakness do manaless champions have unique to them. Why should mana champs be punished for having mana when manaless champions aren't

JustMyBassCannonAug 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Really all this time and all of that and you still don't answer my question?

"All that time" being on-shift at work and shit, thank you very much.

Ok having mana is an early game problem, being manaless is a never game problem. How is that fair.

Because they pay for it in other aspects of their kit. This is what I said initially.

How is it fair that no matter what champ you pick if they uses mana their at a disadvantage other champions don't even have to concern themselves with. What does Yasuo give up for being manaless, what does Riven give up for being manaless. What weakness do manaless champions have unique to them. Why should mana champs be punished for having mana when manaless champions aren't

Your bolded question is very narrow-minded. You should be asking what drawbacks there are, period. It has nothing to do with whether or not those weaknesses can apply to mana-based champions; such thinking is pretentious.

Yasuo has a high skill cap and cannot handle other duelists. He also has the lowest late-game DPS among the melee carries (I've done the math enough times, if you don't believe me, it's your choice, but it's the truth).

Riven has pathetic innate defenses, relying almost entirely on her E shield because she can't afford to build much defense in items if she wants to remain at all relevant late-game. She also has no ability to bounce back from falling behind, and cannot deal with champions that can handle her all-in.

Mana champions have to manage a resource early-game. In exchange, they pretty much always have lower base cooldowns, stronger CC/greater AoE and they require less work for the same output.

YCitizenSnipsYAug 5, 20151 votes

I don't find the question narrow minded at all, because all mana champions have a unified weakness. Why shouldn't this be true for other champions who don't use mana. Also I'm not really buying the whole high skill cap excuse, I mean I have never seen a Syndra 7 orb combo done in an actual game or the LCS, should she be manaless for how hard it is to fulfill her potential? Also Riven is a glass cannon who has to snow ball or fall off, so is Pantheon should he also be manaless?

But honestly I'm done arguing here, I'm not gonna change your mind and you aint gonna change mine. I don't consider it fair that all manaless champs have one less weakness by default, feel free to think other wise.

JustMyBassCannonAug 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I don't find the question narrow minded at all, because all mana champions have a unified weakness. Why shouldn't this be true for other champions who don't use mana.

Because it isn't universally the same for mana champions.

As a point of comparison, play Talon or Poppy, then play Vi or Jax. All of them are mana-based champions with melee-assassin playstyles of different variety. The first two champions have stricter mana gating than the second set.

Then compare them to someone with mana refunding, like Gangplank, Cassiopeia, Annie, etc. and see how their mana gating is even more lax if you're making use of the mana refund.

Likewise, manaless champions have different weaknesses because of their highly varied kits.

Also I'm not really buying the whole high skill cap excuse, I mean I have never seen a Syndra 7 orb combo done in an actual game or the LCS, should she be manaless for how hard it is to fulfill her potential? Also Riven is a glass cannon who has to snow ball or fall off, so is Pantheon should he also be manaless?

You keep building straw-man arguments, I'm not sure if you're trying to debate or plant a corn field.

I have seen Syndra pull off a 7-orb combo, not that you have to believe what I say. Yes, it's difficult, but there's a difference between, "This one part of their kit is really hard to maximize," and "Their entire goddamn kit takes a ton of micromanagement despite lacking mana" (referring to Yasuo). Also, they're completely different archetypes, so the comparison falls a few miles short.

Pantheon has higher burst damage, more easily usable CC, and greater map pressure through his ultimate. Also, his innate defenses are stronger and he actually has a harass tool, instead of needing to go all in to do anything.

But honestly I'm done arguing here, I'm not gonna change your mind and you aint gonna change mine. I don't consider it fair that all manaless champs have one less weakness by default, feel free to think other wise.

I never argue with fools to change their minds. I do it to understand why I believe what I believe. This exercise was only futile to you.

SwapShadowsAug 4, 20153 votes

Why would you give people that HAVE to spam their kits energy/mana costs?

imagine riven with mana= oom in 2 rotations

yasuo with mana/energy= 0 dashes or oom

Penguin EclipseAug 4, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Why would you give people that HAVE to spam their kits energy/mana costs?

imagine riven with mana= oom in 2 rotations

yasuo with mana/energy= 0 dashes or oom

2 full rotations will drain nearly any champion who doesn't build mana/mana-regen.

Does Yasuo HAVE to dash all over the place? Is there a reason he can't conserve his abilities like the majority of other champions?

Blkninjar87Aug 4, 20151 votes

Yes cause if he didn't he would die... Do u ever take time to notice how squishy yasuo is? Or how a single stun silence or bind can shutdown his entire entity? Does yasuo blink like MasterYi or stealth like Talon or get free execute damage like Zed and Fizz ? Further more if a yasuo is rushing item 3087 how does he even sustained in lane?

LuggAug 4, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Or how a single stun silence or bind can shutdown his entire entity?

That applies to EVERY champion in the game.

Further more if a yasuo is rushing how does he even sustained in lane?

item 2041 and item 2003 problem solved.

Radnar the boldAug 4, 20152 votes

Garen and Darius are similair but also different. Yet, The reward Daruis for using mana, compared to Garen. Daruis's passive rewards him for using basic attacks and his Q/W and his E pulls you close to him to get this stuff off. Garen has to run at you to use his Q silence and be close to you to do his E. Daruis and Garen have the same ults, but Daruis gets his ult bakc if he gets a kill, yet Garen has to wait. To me Daruis and Garen are both balanced because one has mana gat and one doesnt, but one is rewarded for using mana.

2BeholdAug 4, 20151 votes

I mean part of that is just Garen isn't particularly engaging as a champion, something that as i understand Riot will be fixing in his Rework that's coming up

Radnar the boldAug 4, 20154 votes

dont you be disrepecting my main, He is very engaging, his lore, look, and kit. He can be a great tank that soaks up damage in teamfights and then his ult for shutting down the adc. His passive makes it so he can just get all his health back after team fights.

The Bearded BardAug 4, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Radnar the bold,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZtA1x46d,comment-id=001400000000,timestamp=2015-08-04T17:45:12.896+0000)

dont you be disrepecting my main, He is very engaging, his lore, look, and kit. He can be a great tank that soaks up damage in teamfights and then his ult for shutting down the adc. His passive makes it so he can just get all his health back after team fights.

I will always disrespect Garen and the people that play him. Until the day where he's not the easiest champion in this game, he will have my disrespect. If that day ever comes, I'll move on to Annie and Annie players.

Radnar the boldAug 4, 20153 votes

alright. I'll still love him. Garen Garen Garen