PSA: Garen is a JUGGERNAUT

EbonyBladeJ88··9 votes·1,455 views

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/6/6d/Garen_OriginalSkin.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20181021041018

With all the people saying that Garen is doing too much damage, beating them in lane and whatnot else, I'd like to remind you about something regarding what he is. Garen is a JUGGERNAUT. Juggernauts are INTENDED to deal great amounts, and tank great amounts, of damage. They are described as such by Riot:

"Juggernauts are melee titans who relentlessly march down the opposition and devastate those foolish enough to get within their grasp. They are the only subclass who excel at both dealing and taking significant amounts of damage, but in turn they have a tough time closing in on targets due to their low range and extremely limited mobility."

So, what does that mean? That means that if Garen, or ANY OTHER JUGGERNAUT for that matter, gets on you; IT'S GOING TO HURT.

Garen himself is actually one of the most LIMITED Juggernauts of them all. His main tools for getting on a target come from his Q in the form of an MS boost, and other mainly MS-Boosting effects such as Rage ( item 3071 or item 3078 edition), the Dreadnought momentum effect of item 3742 and maybe item 3800 , but that's something I see built on other Juggers (Like Darius and a few others) rather than Garen himself, and of course, there's summoner 4 .

There is also Phase Rush and Predator, but unless the Garen player INTENTIONALLY takes them as his Rune Setup, they are not always there and thus not as commonly seen (And thus as reliable) as the above things.

So first, his Q CLEANSES him of all slows affecting him at the time of activation, but does NOT render him immune to them afterwards. (I know about the Tenacity on W, but I'm talking about ONE PART of his Kit at a time) That means, if you save your Slow for AFTER he's used it, guess what? You've rendered his MS Boost useless. His Q also silences you, for a total of 1.5 seconds (Remember when it used to scale with the level of his Q, instead of being a fixed duration?), IF he can land it on you. If you wisely use your champion's skills to keep him at bay for 4.5 seconds after he's activated it, then he can't get you with it. Even if he does land it, guess what? Unless it applies an effect such as Glacial Augment, the slow of the Dreadnought momentum, or the slow of Frozen Mallet, YOU CAN STILL MOVE while you're silenced. You can literally just walk away, EVEN IF the Garen is following you with the remainder of his Q MS Boost and any others he might have. Not exactly rocket science here people.

His W. His W now, as a tradeoff for the increased damage of his E and R, has been pretty weakened. Instead of reducing damage from all sources for 60% for the first 0.75 seconds, he now has a 10%HP Shield, that becomes less and less effective as the game does on. Example: 3000HP=300HP Shield. That won't even block a lategame ADC's AAs if they crit. He now has the 30% Damage reduction through the entirety of the duration, which means he COULD block 1 AA, but the likelihood of that occurring is not very high, and he's also MUCH more susceptible to burst because of this reduction of his damage resistance. His stacking resistances have been reduced back to 30 (Like it was some time ago), making his other natural defenses even weaker too. That makes him even LESS LIKELY to be able to shrug off an attacker's burst like he was able to do before. As for the Tenacity, it's still 60%, and is still only up during the first 0.75 seconds. So, like I was saying in the Q section, he COULD theoretically reduce the duration of any Slows you might apply AFTER he's activated his Q, but the timing still has to be pretty pixel-perfect, as it was before the changes.

https://media.giphy.com/media/XGriKTsX8uFs1RQWGO/giphy.gif

Now, the meat and potatoes of the Rework: his E. Instead of that isolation mechanic (Which anyone with half a brain was able to negate simply by standing in groups of minions), he deals 25% extra damage to the nearest target, indicated by the old "Villainy" Mark above the head of the unit suffering the bonus damage. This largely does not change how Garen was rewarded for his E in comparison to the old one, it was about POSITIONING!

Old E: Garen would have to position himself in a way that his E was only striking 1 Unit, preferably the champion he was targeting. The champion he was targeting had counterplay simply by standing in groups of minions, monsters or with other allied champs, meaning every tick of his E hitting them did not apply that 33% bonus as long as those requirements were fulfilled.

New E: Garen now has to position himself to where if he wants that 25% damage bonus, he has to keep the champion (His presumed target) as close as he can for as long as he can. The enemy still has counterplay in the form of POSITIONING, as well. If they can force some distance between themselves and the Garen (Via minions, monsters or even fellow champs), those ticks of his E don't apply the 25% bonus; JUST LIKE THE OLD E.

The IDEA of using your positioning to counter the effectiveness of Garen's E is STILL THERE, it is just done now in such a way that you might have to THINK a bit more, rather than just mindlessly standing with minions to negate it. On the flipside, the Garen ALSO has to think a bit more too; he may be ghosted while spinning, but if he's chasing you THROUGH minions, that means that as he chases you, the 25% Bonus is getting changed from you to the minions AS HE CHASES YOU through them when they get close enough.

Now, the last thing everyone's shouting about: His E now GRANTS STACKS OF CONQUEROR. With an AA, Q and then 3 ticks of his E, he can gain all 5 stacks pretty fast. You know who else can stack it quickly? NEARLY EVERY OTHER JUGGERNAUT; as well as some Skirmishers and Divers too. Examples: Darius - With a standard 1-2-3 combo (Pull, AA, W, Q), Darius can gain 4 stacks of Conq. Yorick - With a standard 1-2-3 combo (E, Q, and then Ghouls) Yorick can gain 3 stacks of Conq, not to mention the attacks of his ghouls beyond that being able to grant him the remaining stacks without him even having to attack the target. Mordekaiser - 1-2-3 Combo (E, Q, AA) not only gives him "Darkness Rise" but gets him 3 stacks of Conq besides.

Now some non-Jugg examples. Renekton : Dash in, W, and Dash out can grant Renekton about 3 to 4 stacks of Conq, depending on if he's using the non-empowered or empowered version via his Rage. Irelia : E stun, Q Dash, followed by an AA gives her about 3 stacks in rapid time. Jax : Q Jump (Which has this little addendum: Jax will attempt to automatically basic attack his target at the end of the dash which could grant another stack), W Reset, AA while E is up can get him all 5 stacks very quickly. Riven : Now I could be wrong with this one, but... Each Q (IF it hits a champion at least, I believe) grants 1 stack of Conq. Weave one of her empowered AAs between each one, and you can get all 5 with just 1 Ability. I know that's not how most Rivens combo their attacks, but I think it is still possible nonetheless.

Look at that! He's not the FIRST to be able to stack it so quickly! In fact, because he stacked it so slowly in comparison to the rest of his class, or even fellow Fighters/Bruisers in general, it was nigh-on USELESS for him before. With this, he's actually able to use one of the Keystones MEANT for his Class!

https://media.giphy.com/media/UZtyaSGyC9Wbm/giphy.gif

Last but certainly not least, his R. In exchange for it being changed to always deal true damage, the amount it deals has been reduced. From 175 / 350 / 525 and 28.6 / 34.3 / 40% missing health, to 150 / 300 / 450 and 20 / 25 / 30% of the target's missing health. Sure, you may not be able to reduce the amount of damage via MR anymore, but you also no longer have to worry about ever being marked as the...

https://www.fightersgeneration.com/characters/venom-v.gif

...any more. No more of him dealing 1% of your health as true damage via AAs, Qs and his E. He has to get you LOWER to be able to execute you.

There. Now perhaps that I've explained it (Even if Meddler just said on https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/OzpQtsiV-quick-gameplay-thoughts-october-11 that he's a candidate for nerfs) you can see that Garen, while certainly improved with this rework, is not as strong as people are making him out to be.

This has been EbonybladeJ88, a lover of all Juggernauts, signing off.

https://i.giphy.com/media/rv3vUN7M4uXv2/giphy.gif

21 Comments

Darkdemon6538 votes

Being a juggernaut is not a free pass to be completely broken.

EbonyBladeJ883 votes

I believe I just said in the post how to play against him?

I've mentioned ways to stop his Q, brought up how Positioning should be used to reduce his E's effectiveness, and even listed how he is NOT the only Juggernaut or Fighter/Bruiser (Or whatever term you wish to use) to be able to stack Conq quickly?

He has counterplay and is not completely broken.

spicymonki1 votes

I'd like you to, first off, experiment with this "counterplay" tactic you proposed AS AN ADC/NON-TANK SUPPORT/NON-TANK MIDLANER/ NON-TANK JG MID-LATE GAME. If you still would like to "preach" about Garen's "counterplay" in that proposed, VERY common scenario, I oblige you to keep talking. You still won't get a like from me or anyone else with half a brain.

Moody P1 votes

Its a good thing that hes not then isn't it

JackMcCarry7 votes

Garen is overtuned, statisticly, that is a fact. No other champion class would get such a pass from the boards with these statistics, 53%+ winrate and 17% pickrate, Yea, he's a simple champ, No, trippling your pickrate in 1 patch and increasing your winrate by 3% is not a sign of a healthy buff.

EbonyBladeJ884 votes

Meanwhile Riven and others get complained about for months and we're told they're fine. Garen gets a mini-rework which is INEVITABLY going to shake up things, and he's instantly overtuned?

That's a fair assessment, sure. s/

Infernape3 votes

{quoted}

Meanwhile Riven and others get complained about for months and we're told they're fine. Garen gets a mini-rework which is INEVITABLY going to shake up things, and he's instantly overtuned?

That's a fair assessment, sure. s/

Well considering Riot disagrees with you and has lined him up for nerfs, it's safe to say he is overtuned.

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

didnt riot nerf champs just cuz of pro play even though they were below 50% win rates in solo queue ?

JackMcCarry2 votes

Riven had 52% winrate in HIGH ELO and about the same pickrate and was complained about nonestop, she was nerfed, her Q CD has been nerfed and her E, it was not a big nerf, but it was enough to push her back. Meanwhile Garen here is with 53% winrate across all ELO's with 17% pickrate, and everyone are defending him because surprise surprise, the boards are very juggernaut and bruiser biased.

Moody P1 votes

then why are all of the upvoted Garen threads the ones complaining about him

JackMcCarry1 votes

Can you honestly tell me that if Riven , Fiora or Yasuo had similar stats, people would defend them to the same degree as Garen or Mordekaiser ? Hell, look at this thread someone legit complaining about a lucian top in masters + in the last patch. Lucian top with 52.8% winrate and 1% pickrate (thats about 300-400 games total), yet - the thread got major upvotes because circlejerking "ranged bad melee good" gets you more upvotes than giving actual arguments

I'll summerize and ask you this, do you think Garen is fine ATM? or is he overtuned? Dont you think it's kind of alarming the only champion with a better win ratio than him top is Quinn who only has 2% pickrate? while having just .4% better winrate than him? he's legit overtuned, give me actual data and facts we can argue about rather than just repeating "he's melee just kite him" when i run at people with 500 MS as Garen.

Moody P1 votes

stats with no context are worthless; if you want high elo performance talk you can just ask high elo players, and everyone I talked to who outranked me either says hes not OP or they don't know yet. I've played him and haven't noticed much of a difference, and I think Conqueror is supremely overrated on him (as usual). Garen win rate will always be inflated by how easy he is to play and how much he benefits from the disorganization of soloQ

jinx has/had similarly high stats in this time and I've defended her, too. that is just the nature of how soloQ champions are going to work if they're anywhere resembling strong.

JackMcCarry1 votes

stats with no context are worthless

But there is context, he got his stats changed, in a direct response to those changes, his playrate skyrocketed (from 5% to 17% and still rising), in a normal case, that would mean his WR should either decrease until people learn how to utilize his changes/his kit (depending on how new they are to Garen) or at least not really change. What happened instead is that he gets played much more AND wins much more, a 3% jump in WR across so many games is not coincidental. No context is saying "i asked my friends who outrank me and they say he's not OP", THATS no context.

Garen win rate will always be inflated by how easy he is to play and how much he benefits from the disorganization of soloQ

That's not inflation, it's not like because he's a simple champ his wins are worth less, just because he's an easy champion doesnt mean he gets to be above the rules of balance, a simple champ can be OP, a simple champ can have too high of a WR+Pickrate and should be nerfed, Yi is a simple champ, Jax is a simple champ, very few are actually "difficult" when you break them down.

jinx has/had similarly high stats in this time and I've defended her, too. that is just the nature of how soloQ champions are going to work if they're anywhere resembling strong.

Marksmen are a unique class in terms of stats, there only 16 recorded marksmen stats (15 if you dont count Yasuo ) their playrate will always be actually inflated, because their options are limited, to compare toplane has 44 recorded champions in their pool. Their winrate is also in relation to other marksmen, since 90% of the games, there are 2 marksmen against each other.

Worst JG Wins3 votes

Don't you tell me how to play Garen

Garen is a Full AD Jungle assassin that takes Predator as a keystone.

EbonyBladeJ883 votes

Was I saying HOW to play Garen? I just listed the Keystones as options of increasing his mobility in relation to be able to get on his targets.

ThisName1sDumb3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Worst JG Wins,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZkoWAy80,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-10-11T22:45:45.200+0000)

Don't you tell me how to play Garen

Garen is a Full AD Jungle assassin that takes Predator as a keystone.

A true man of culture.

EbonyBladeJ883 votes

Funny when you hear people saying that on these boards everyone is "Wanting Tanks and FIghters to be better", but if you make a post in favor of them, you get downvoted to hell.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Ok, so let's lead with the good. A lot of your points are awesome, and undoubtedly, these changes with Garen are going to be good in the long run.

That said...

Garen is very strong right now. He is definitely in need of nerfs. I have never seen anyone post in defense of a champ that was indisputably OP and get upvoted. Yes, there are some people on the Boards that want to see tanks and fighters get some love, but there are also people that don't.

And furthermore, neither camp wants to see a champ go from borderline unplayable to completely busted. And on top of that, barely anyone likes to see low-skill champs being busted ever. So you've got some things going against you, there.

Again, that's not to say there aren't valid points here. Garen needed some help. He ought to be able to proc conqueror, for sure. But he didn't have to get completely busted because of the change. He's a menance right now. And if you don't believe that, check some stats sites.

The thigh guy1 votes

Wow.

So juggernauts can be the actual most broken thing in the game.

But if an adc becomes even close to carrying a game they are op out their asses. Even though it’s in the title of their role. Okay dude.

AhhShucks1 votes

that was a lot of shit i didn't read.

He's dumpstering all the other juggernauts right now too. He's kinda dumb.

I personally really enjoy the juggernaut thing. Garen is too much right now.

True Garen1 votes

#LeaveGarenAlone

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