I just played a game against a Fizz and he said and I quote "if you cleanse his ult his damage goes to shit." Fizz does not need his ult for the damage increase on anyone who is not a tank cause his basic abilities do so much.
Verxint43 votesIMO the problem with fizz isn't that he's balanced or not balanced...
He feels like the epitome of a champion who is allowed to try and kill you whenever he feels like and never really gets punished for it. Yet, you make one mistake vs him and he will kill you.
iainB859 votesActually, a lot of his damage is tied to his E so he needs to choose to use it offensively or defensively. If he uses it offensively and does not get the kill, how exactly can you not punish him for it?
I think maybe the CD might be a little too low at rank 5 of the skill, but early game it seems pretty easy to exploit that fact + it costs 1/3rd of his mana pool.
Grizz4 votes^ This exactly. Fizz's high mana costs balances his early game, but later into the game his E does become stupid. This is the spell Riot should target with their nerfs, not his W and ulti since highering his E cooldown also will reduce AD Fizz's overall power.
Auryiel13 votesThe problem with that is (and this is mostly true mid) that Fizz has such an easy way to outplay you at levels 2 and 3, get a kill and a lead he'll never lose. That doesn't happen often, I'd imagine, but when it does, it is rage inducing. Fizz is the kind of champion that just makes you feel bad to play against him.
You can't really go on the offensive because he can easily dodge everything and punish you heavily for it. The best strat against Fizz is to stay away, harass safely and make him lose CS, which is both risky depending on the junglers and more importantly highly unsatisfying. It doesn't matter that I know I've won lane really hard when Fizz is 40 cs and a level behind, it was an excruciating experience because the whole time I had to be paranoid about every single move I make or else I feed him a kill and likely the game. Compare that to laning against an Orianna for example. Sure, if she gets a lead she can bully you harder, but if she messes up, she can be killed easily. She is punishable and it's possible to get a lead on her eventually. A kill given to an Ori doesn't feel nearly as depressing as a kill given to Fizz. The first is more of a ''Shit, I messed up'' or ''Wow, she played that well'', whereas the latter is probably more ''Wtf is this bullshit champion, great now I'll die every time I walk into lane''.
I'm not arguing against what you said, it's very true, all I'm saying is that the perception of Fizz's balance state and the reality are two vastly different things and I'm not sure the former should be dismissed so quickly. This is, after all, a game. Fun should matter.
Troll for Trump2 votesearly game 
?
Mimy11 votesQuestion....
Who takes 
?
Complexly5 votesFaker Senpai.
NinjaToad995 votesI remember when ADC took cleanse and Support took exhaust. None of this "heal" nonsense back in my day!
Aych Pii10 votesIf he misses his ult most champions that arent tanks or behind in gold should be able to duel him pretty reliably, assuming he's an AP fizz. If he were really op the winrates would prove it.
Booleans4 votesI think thats the issue. You have to assume hes AP. A champion with 0 ad ratios can build ad and be a better duelist than the intended ap version. He may not be OP, but hes not balanced. At least AP tryndamere had 2 AP ratios.
Aych Pii1 votesI can get behind this, Fizz needs to be put to the grinder for a while until building him AP is the only way to do things. The R changes on pbe are a step in the right direction at least.
(Also in a perfect world we could disable zhonya's hourglass on assassins, but unfortunately rito is cruel.)
Grizz2 votesWhy should AP be the only build path when alot of AD champions are on equal or even higher ground than him in terms of dueling potential? Irelia, Riven, and Fiora all beat him in lane 1v1 and scale fairly equally. AP Fizz is more unhealthy for the game then AD Fizz overall, but I see no reason why not to try and balance both builds, Hybrid champions are fun and should be apart of this game since it adds diversity :)
Aych Pii4 votesThe main reason is that he's not actually a hybrid champion, he's an AP assassin with so much utility in his kit that he's viable as a tank and a BotrK duelist as well. Fizz's utility is the most infuriating thing about him, so I'd like to see nerfs to that area of his kit, which would naturally make AP assassin Fizz shine through as the best build.
ChaoticPinecone4 votesYou may say that Fizz has 0 AD ratios, but his Q has an autoattack portion and his ult increases all his damage - including physical.
And a champion does not need strong AD ratios to be good with AD items. Does anybody remember the AD Leblanc that was popular earlier this year? AD Alistar? Bruiser Ekko? Shaco, Yorick, Shyvana, Jax, Irelia, Corki, Ezreal, Kogmaw, pre-rework Ashe, pre-rework Trist, and pre-rework Gangplank all have pretty low AD ratios for primarily being built for autoattacking. Then there are champions like Teemo and Nidalee that go through phases where their AD or AP is more popular.
Vistha Kai10 votesThe best part is 40% CDR Fizz.
Good luck hitting him with anything, because Trollpole's CD rivals most champions' poke spells, not to mention an average CC ability has twice as long cooldown.
A Miss Fortune8 votesFizz will never exist as a healthy or balanced champion with his troll pole and It's something Riot needs to address instead of tiny nerfs with a buff. He hasn't really ever been nerfed hard and It's stupid. He has so much safety and his damage is unnecessarily high. Once he hits level 6, if he has at least one kill or assist on you he most likely will turret dive you and snowball from then on since he's basically the Talon of faceroll champs.
CubedJustice5 votesI agree. I'm completely ok with invulnerability. I don't think that's toxic at all. But when it's a double dash, that's kind of overkill.
A Miss Fortune5 votesThe fact that his invulnerability has infinite value and can't be measured in actual worth is fine and a couple of champions including a new one like Bard have it, but Fizz's can be on like a 4 second cooldown on top of his already really overloaded kit. Fizz is suppose to be a squishy assassins but his passive, trollpole invulnerability, and like you mentioned his dashes, allows him to completely negate his only weakness being squishy. I wouldn't even say a weakness of his is no range because that broken ultimate of his can hit you across the map. "skill shot". It seems like a CertainlyT champion, absolutely overloaded and toxic with a single weakness that the champion's entire kit is designed to negate making them seemingly have no weakness.
Tatrii6 votesThe troll poll's cooldown NEEDS to be increased he can go invulnerable way too much I think it's like 6 seconds maxed or something stupid like that.
Grizz2 votesI agree the coldown is actually way to short, with 40% CDR it is really a frustrating experience to play against. However if this were to be the nerf to Fizz he would need compensation in terms of extra damage on his W or Q since making his E a higher cooldown not only reduces his mobility (which probably derserves a nerf) but also his DPS by alot.
metaworldpeace106 votesI really want to chime in on this thread. The biggest issue with Fizz is how much kill pressure he has in lane, starting at level 3. His mana costs are easily compensated by buying a second Dorans ring or starting flask and rushing Morellos. The moment you get to lane against a Fizz the pressure is on to you to not give a single kill and making sure he doesn't roam bot lane or TP in for a kill. The moment fizz gets a kill, the chances of you being able to come to lane and farm is over. You are forced to play 1000 range away from Fizz or he will jump on you and kill you. His snowball and zoning is too strong and it's all because of his stupid troll pole. He can always "outplay" you, but when you "outplay" Fizz, you feel as though the Fizz player was just stupid. This champion is bullshit and needs a small scale rework in order for him to be balanced and tolerable to play against. Just my 2 IP
excodar3 votesI really want to chime in on this thread. The biggest issue with Fizz is how much kill pressure he has in lane, starting at level 3. His mana costs are easily compensated by buying a second Dorans ring or starting flask and rushing Morellos. The moment you get to lane against a Fizz the pressure is on to you to not give a single kill and making sure he doesn't roam bot lane or TP in for a kill. The moment fizz gets a kill, the chances of you being able to come to lane and farm is over. You are forced to play 1000 range away from Fizz or he will jump on you and kill you. His snowball and zoning is too strong and it's all because of his stupid troll pole. He can always "outplay" you, but when you "outplay" Fizz, you feel as though the Fizz player was just stupid. This champion is bullshit and needs a small scale rework in order for him to be balanced and tolerable to play against. Just my 2 IP
Have you ever considered playing him ONCE to learn his weaknesses? His laning phase is shit and is pretty much the only reason I don't play him. Hes pretty much garbage everywhere right now considering his highest winrate is as a jungler with a exact 50%.
metaworldpeace105 votesHave you ever considered playing him ONCE to learn his weaknesses? His laning phase is shit and is pretty much the only reason I don't play him. Hes pretty much garbage everywhere right now considering his highest winrate is as a jungler with a exact 50%.
Yes. I've played him a solid dozen times. I can't tell you how easy it was to roll my lane, then roll the game. His kill pressure is immense and his only skill shot is pretty easy to land and it has a pretty forgiving hitbox. I've played with, as and against Fizz many a times, win rate only does not determine champion balance or healthy gameplay. If you're comparing win rate to balance then how do you explain Azir's balance? I can tell you one thing, his 46% win rate is not indicative of his strength as a champion.
Lajneen5 voteshttp://i.imgur.com/T2tpo5Y.png[/img]
Another Bronzie crying about Fizz, what a surprise!
Fizz kit is perfectly fine, all he needs is buffs to his AP ratios. He's not ''too strong'' by any means, you're just too unskilled.
Lugg5 votesSeriously, name a single weakness Fizz has. His AP ratios are fine since he can all in ANY champion in the game.
Lajneen5 votesIncredibly weak early game, doesn't spike until he has 3 items (not including boots), high mana costs, being a melee champion, weak AP ratios etc.
And ofcourse his biggest weakness: Every time he kills an unskilled low elo scrub they make a QQ thread about how he's broken and needs to get nerfed.
Lugg5 votesHis weak early game is easily overcome by starting Flask and pots. Once he hits level 3, he can pretty much all in anyone. He doesn't need to wait for any item spikes at all. His mana costs are negated with the flask. It doesn't matter that he is melee since he can gap close on pretty much anyone.
Once again, his AP ratios aren't actually weak due to how his kit works. His Q applies on hit effects. His W does % health damage on top of the magic damage. His E has a .75 ratio. His ult has a 100% ratio. So either you think I'm stupid and don't know this or you really don't know what you are talking about.
So, as you can see, Fizz literally doesn't have any weaknesses at all except for the skill of the player.
Lajneen4 votesOnce he hits level 3, he can pretty much all in anyone.
Stopped reading there. I'm not even gonna attempt to argue against such ignorance.
FancyKiwi7 votesStopped reading there. I'm not even gonna attempt to argue against such ignorance.
The only ignorant one here is you.
Lajneen2 votesThis thread proves that low elos should not be allowed to post and vote in G&B. You don't know what you're talking about and you never contribute with anything positive.
FancyKiwi4 votesThis thread proves that low elos should not be allowed to post and vote in G&B. You don't know what you're talking about and you never contribute with anything positive.
We contribute more positivity than you. What positive things have you contributed? All you have done is bash people people for not being a high elo.
Lugg1 votesLow ELO? ROFL!
You are BARELY Plat V and with a record of 33-45, you won't be there for long. Anyone looking at your match history can easily see you were carried to that point.
I explained my point, all you have done is QQ and not provided anything relevant to the discussion.
Lajneen1 votesAnyone who looks at my match history will see that I do good literally every single game whether it's a victory or defeat. The fact that you have to make up lies means that you're getting desperate.
In any case you're Bronze 5 after 400 games, that should in all honestly be a permabannable offense, people who are that unskilled shouldn't be allowed to play.
Lugg2 votesToo bad this account is the one I only use to play with friends in Bronze. Try again.
Lajneen2 votesYour stats are shit on every single champ, it's impossible to perform that bad in Bronze 5 no matter how hard you troll. And being stuck there for 400 games? You belong there, among the worst of the worst.
Lugg2 votesYeah, I suck on every champ. I guess that's why:
4 Champs 100% win rate. 2 Champs 75% win rate. Galio 72% win rate. Morg 59% win rate. Thresh 57% Blitz 54% 7 Champs with 50% win rate.
Go troll elsewhere.
Suibun2 votesExcept for the parts where you can build defensive items given a Fizz might get Sorcs boots early, but otherwise focuses on building straight AP (or Triforce, depending on the build).
The thing you have to know is Fizz isn't great before Sheen. Sheen makes his damage explosive. His mana issues are still a huge problem and you can only do a full combo fairly rarely unless you want to be basing constantly. Biggest mistake I see a lot of people do? They sit under Fizz while he's on his pole and wait for him to come down as he does a crapton of damage to them because his E hits really damn hard. Save your CC for after he's used his pole if you're really having issues. The CD is long enough and he's squishy enough that you're going to catch him if you aim it right.
He's strong yes, but Fizz is not OP. He's still squishy. He's still got abhorrent mana costs. Without E up (which he has to use for waveclear or if he wants to push) he is pretty damn easy to catch with CC. Try playing a tankier champion who can fight Fizz like one of the Juggernauts. Garen with a DMP can get away from Fizz and turn and destroy him.
Lugg2 votesThe rub is that you really can't itemize against Fizz. If you get hit by his ult, it doesn't matter what your build is, you are going to die. He does a sick combination of physical, magical, and percent health damage.
I agree that he isn't "great" before Sheen, be is still very good. Once he has Sheen, he is an absolute terror. Yes, his mana costs are high, that is why you start flask. It will take care of that issue until his base mana is high enough to make it a mute point.
Sitting under Fizz's pole is about all you can do. It has enough range that he is going to hit you no matter what you do. The CC will work if you have hard CC to lock him down and then also have enough damage to make the trade somewhat even. He is always hard to catch even with his E on CD since his Q is a dash. The Juggernauts would work, but they are all probably getting nerfed next patch. Heck, they aren't even waiting for the patch to nerf Skarner.
While I do disagree with most of your post, it was well thought out.
Suibun2 votesI suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here.
-Before Sheen, he can't take a respectable burst out of someone to make his W DoT very useful (unless they go in a sustained fight while he has his W on or sit under his E, and even then without the extra oomph from Sheen, it's not that scary.
-Sitting under Fizz pole is what he wants you to do. If you must do this, at least have an appreciable amount of MR to negate the burst he gets from it. Friendly reminder that without his E, he has next to no escape and is so squishy that you'll likely destroy him in a straight up fight if you have any appreciable tank stats.
-Q is a dash, sure, but it's a targeted enemy-only dash much like Irelia. Note where he's likely to take his path and play around it (e.g. he jumps in with E, out with Q so make the direction he has to Q a bad one)
-Flask, as many have pointed out, doesn't negate his mana costs in laning terribly much. It still takes half to a third of his mana early game in order to do a full combo sans ult. The only way he gets "enough mana for it not to be an issue" is by buying mana (Frozen Heart, Sheen) which still leaves him without pushing power unless he uses his most expensive skill and also his escape: E.
-Play passive and freeze towards yourself. Nothing more irritating than this as Fizz because his melee means he has to recklessly endanger himself to grab farm that may be stuck under your turret if you've frozen far enough back. Plus, as great as his E is for an escape, it's not the full top-lane's worth of escape if your jungler has an iota of patience for him to overextend for that farm.
There's quite a bit you can do against Bruiser Fizz if you look for the openings. Again: he's strong, but not OP, especially with the new Juggernaut items that have made his mobility and some of his burst a moot point. Surprisingly one of the biggest counters I've faced is one of the most simple: Volibear. His W has a massive burst that absolutely destroys Fizz, he can build health and Juggernaut items to tank up and get damage at the same time, has the powerful slow on E and Q flip to catch Fizz before/after he poles and his passive means he defacto wins any all-in trade so long as it's up and Fizz didn't get a Morello (which why would you on Bruiser Fizz?).
Hope this helps you deal with the Trollfish in the mean time. I'm just waiting on the Juggernaut items to be less broken before I can do much again.
Lugg1 votesNow that they are nerfing his AD side, it will be a little easier to itemize against him. It's still incredibly hard to not fall behind to him early though. Even though his combo takes most of his mana, it chunks you so hard you are on the defensive until you can heal up and if you were at 75% health or less, you may die from it. If Fizz ever gets a lead, you are really screwed in lane.
That's the problem I have with him, he snowballs so hard and his kit makes it pretty easy for him to start the snowball.
Suibun2 votesThat's sort of the point of it, though, isn't it? Sort of like Riven who everyone likes to cry "broken champion" out about even though she's able to be outplayed with some patience and skill.
Bruiser Fizz (more of an AS build, not AD, with the W damage and DoT as well as Sheen to compliment his DoT) if he falls behind can't really catch back up either. It's feast/famine. Gets ahead and doesn't throw it away and he's really damn strong. But if you, say, E into the middle of the enemy team thinking that you're just OP as all hell, you're going to be murdered just like any other champ with this style. You fall behind, you go to side lanes and whimper until you get to your power spike and pray it's not too late to be relevant.
I understand the frustration, I used to complain about Riven a great deal until I learned the patterns and how to play around her fairly decently. Same goes for Fizz here: he has to secure a lead early in order to start a snowball that he can use to stay relevant. In a 5v5 fight, most of the time Bruiser Fizz is very, very weak because even with the tank items, he's just another bruiser who tries to dive in and kill a carry and praying that he can do it in time before the tankiness he's built up is breached. This is why lategame, Bruiser Fizz likes to splitpush: get back to his comfort of being a 1v1 or 1v2 strength.
If you're having trouble with him (or any champion for that matter) try learning to play them yourself and learn the mindset, then try to strategize around that mindset. Worst comes to worst, you can now play the OP and carry with it super hard, right? :P
Lugg1 votesBruiser Fizz may be the worst of the Fizz builds to play against. The reason is his percent health damage. He can build full tank and still do tons of damage. And then you have the fact that he is highly mobile. If you are getting killed by him, good luck getting away. If you are beating him in a fight, good luck catching him.
Fizz really doesn't have to worry about falling behind either. He snowballs so hard that he can easily come back from a deficit.
It's the combination of all these things that makes Fizz so toxic and overpowered.
Suibun3 votesNot at all, actually. %Health damage only works well if you manage a large burst upfront to make it useful (hence Sheen and Ult and W active being important: starting off that % health damage to being meaningful). He can't build full tank, no, but bruiser: at least one purely offensive item, often two, then tank items to make it so they can use their offensive itemization without being evaporated. Problem is, Fizz still lacks the innate tankiness to be very good in a full 5v5 teamfight.
As I've said before: his mobility and damage types are great 1v1 or 2v1, but much more than that there's just too many people and too much stuff to dodge it becomes a moot point you dodged the Morg Q because there's 4 other people waiting for you and you can perhaps take down one of them before you succumb to the numbers (assuming you've not already snowballed to 20/1/5 for some reason, but even then: it's difficult).
Fizz has a very difficult problem of falling behind if he doesn't get ahead in lane because then he's just a squishy guy with not enough damage to win an all-in. Sure if he goes to a sidelane when everyone else is roaming about and farms up he can come back (just like every champion can do this) but this is the issue of Fizz: he's reliant on a strong early/mid to be useful late. Enter Bruiserfizz who can splitpush well instead of being an assassin with a questionable late-game.
Further, as I said before, Bruiser Fizz is like Riven: he gets ahead he's going to snowball pretty hard unless he makes a pretty bad mistake. You ever see a Riven give up first blood? I'd bet you that about 70% of the time those Rivens will be come next-to-useless the rest of the game because they've fallen behind. Same applies to Fizz, but without the AD-scaling shield and instead of brief invulnerability period that costs him a large chunk of his mana bar, especially early.
You're right that he's sometimes difficult to catch/escape. If you're a tanky sort of champ you know what item absolutely negates that problem? 
Plus, remember that Bruiser Fizz relies on an initial burst to get the %health damage rolling and can't just 100-0 you unless he's very far ahead. Because of this, you can hide under a tower because you know it's going to take him a bit to actually finish you off as he's not AP Assassin lolburst (who has his own set of problems).
Again: try learning to play it yourself. Learn the mindset you adapt and think about what other people do to counter your early aggressive playstyle. Use that playstyle to defeat other top Fizzes. Learn the points when you feel weak versus the points when you feel strong; learn to play around those when you're against him. This works for every champion in the game and is essential for becoming a better League player. Even if you never are able to figure out what to do against the champ in the end of things: it just means you now play that OP champion and thus have less of a reason to complain about it.
hi im alphonse4 votesIt's not that everyone thinks he's OP, everyone just hates playing against him
BeMyFriendPlease3 votesFor real, I think fizz is a little overpowered... but his mana gating is "excessive" especially early. Sustain him til hes oom in lane and i promise he will fall off harder than Rihanna after a date with Chris Brown.
Those energy champions who do just as much if not more damage however..... and people saying "just cleanse their ult" well... I won't say :)
ArkenStorm6 votes
boom his mana problems are gone
Grizz6 votesAll 3 stacks of Crystaline adds up to a total of 180 extra mana in laning phase, to trade Fizz needs to use all of his spells and 1 combo of spells costs 180 mana total (his E costs 90mana alone at rank 1) Fizz has a base mana pool of 267. With Fizz's passive mana regen he can realistically combo about 3 times in lane before he is compleatly out of mana. So no, Fizz still has mana Issues early even with flask :)
Lord Ligma3 votesHave you met Garen. Carries a big sword has a lot of tank items but kills you with one combo.
