Let's look at and contemplate Veiger's PBE changes

GigglingAngel··3 votes·1,291 views

For everyone who doesn't yet know what the changes are, here's a list of all his changes and rather they are a nerf or a buff: (Ability notes that are buffs will have a plus sign at the end of them. Ability notes that are nerfs will have a minus sign at the end of them.)

Baleful Strike (Q) :

  • Q is now a skill shot that stops on second unit hit. + -

This is both a nerf and a buff.
The nerf comes from the fact that it can now miss and that it can be blocked by those in front of the intended target (has to be blocked by two things hit boxes). The buff comes from the fact that it can now hit two targets instead of one. Not only does this mean that it can get two stacks for one cast if done correctly, but this also includes the ability to hit two champions, potentially increasing his overall damage output regarding his Q.

  • Grants 1 AP for each unit killed -

This is a little nerf. Currently, you can get double the ap stack if you finish off a large minion/monster or champion.

  • Range increased to 850 from 650 +

This is a big buff.

  • Cooldown changed to 7/6.5/6/5.5/5 from 8/7/6/5/4 + -

This is a buff to his early game and a nerf to his late game.

Dark Matter (W) :

  • Mana cost lowered to 70/75/80/85/90 from 70/80/90/100/110 +

This is a buff to his scaling.

  • Cooldown lowered to 10/9.5/9/8.5/8 from 10 at all ranks +

Again, this is a buff to his scaling.

Event Horizon (E) :

  • Now has a .75 second delay with a warning particle before walls pop up -

This is one of the two big, controversial nerfs. To compare the 0.75 second delay to another ability, Cho'Gath's Q has a 0.625 second delay, which is slightly shorter than the proposed 0.75 seconds delay. It is, however, much wider than Cho'Gath's Q width. It can still be used well if timed/aimed properly. This will hurt those who were good at aiming the stun right on top of people. However, the coming buffs don't make it too bad.

  • Mana cost lowered to 80/85/90/95/100 from 80/90/100/110/120 +

This is a buff to his scaling.

  • Cooldown lowered to 18/17/16/15/14 from 20/19/18/17/16 +

This is a sizable buff.

  • Range increased to 700 from 650 +

This is another respectable buff. This skill definitely needed more range.

Primordial Burst (R) :

  • AP Ratio lowered to 1.0 from 1.2 -

Biggy #2. This is a technical nerf that is related to his faster Q's AP farming. To put it simply, the Q's AP farming is probably 1.2x more effective in PBE than it is now.
This change was made so, hopefully, the ult will do the same-ish amount of damage that it is doing now, even with the roughly 1.2x increased rate of Q's AP farming. In terms of numbers, every 5 AP Veigar has will do 5 more damage instead of 6. (i. e. 500 AP will now do 500 more damage instead of 600.) However, Veiger who's good at last hitting with this new skill shot will have around 600 AP instead of around 500 AP.

  • Mana cost lowered to 125 at all ranks from 125/175/225 +

This is a big buff.

  • Cooldown lowered to 120/100/80 from 130/110/90 +

This is also a respectable buff.

16 Comments

SephAgro3 votes

"It is, however, much wider than Cho'Gath's Q width. It can still be used well if timed/aimed properly."

The stun's edge is not wider than cho's q, lol. The whole point of his stun is to.. wait for it.. stun. 'Trapping' people in the middle of its giant zone is what Veigar players often refer to as 'missing my stun' (who would have thought?). Missing your stun as Veigar was instant death from a number of champs that can kill him in two hits.

Making statements like that leads me to believe you have't played Veigar, ever. Veigar had strengths, but he also had some serious weaknesses. If you don't understand and appreciate the give and take then you aren't likely making a reasonable arguments for the champ.

GigglingAngel1 votes

{quoted}

"It is, however, much wider than Cho'Gath's Q width. It can still be used well if timed/aimed properly."

The stun's edge is not wider than cho's q, lol. The whole point of his stun is to.. wait for it.. stun. 'Trapping' people in the middle of its giant zone is what Veigar players often refer to as 'missing my stun' (who would have thought?). Missing your stun as Veigar was instant death from a number of champs that can kill him in two hits.

Making statements like that leads me to believe you have't played Veigar, ever. Veigar had strengths, but he also had some serious weaknesses. If you don't understand and appreciate the give and take then you aren't likely making a reasonable arguments for the champ.

The range on his stun and Q was increased for these exact reasons. He's not going to be up close and personal to the waves like he was before. If people charge him, he can use his stun around himself.

It's really not that hard to figure out.

Ship 0F Ducks2 votes

50 more range lol

GigglingAngel1 votes

{quoted}

50 more range lol

Hey, it helps! It's hella short as is. But as you can see, people made a big deal out of it when they thought it was a nerf instead of a buff. So now they can just turn that exact feeling in reverse!

Ship 0F Ducks2 votes

but it is a nerf....i'd rather have them take away range than have delay....

what are you going to do against a leblac now with 0.75 sec delay?

u can't stun her if she w's under tower ur anymore

GigglingAngel1 votes

{quoted}

but it is a nerf....i'd rather have them take away range than have delay....

what are you going to do against a leblac now with 0.75 sec delay?

u can't stun her if she w's under tower ur anymore

The range, which I was referring to, wasn't nerfed as the opening post would like you to believe.

You will deal with her by making use of your increased range and practicing a new element to a champion, just like everything else that changes.

Ship 0F Ducks1 votes

I know range was increased but i meant i don't mind if they take my range away even more than it is in live.....

but really using your stun aggressive against a leblanc especially with this new unreliable stun means you're going to get zoned out for the next 18 seconds.....unless you wana take a hit from her Q+w for some cs

i've played alot of veigar to tell you this isnt a change where you can just adapt to. Hes my most played in ranked

I've also played Veigar on PBE and i can tell you that i can't play ranked with him anymore, veigar is now going to be very predictable, his stun will only be used defensively (offensively if your team is with you)

you can no longer change a losing game into a winning game by flash stuning 3 people before a teamfight

However, i really liked his Q change. increased range made harassing easier.

Mengetsu1 votes

{quoted}

The stun's edge is not wider than cho's q, lol. The whole point of his stun is to.. wait for it.. stun. 'Trapping' people in the middle of its giant zone is what Veigar players often refer to as 'missing my stun' (who would have thought?). Missing your stun as Veigar was instant death from a number of champs that can kill him in two hits.

Playing Leblanc into Veigar, is one of the most frustrating things in League, whether he "misses" or lands his stun, your mobility and role in a fight is deleted. I wouldn't call being trapped in cage a "miss" especially depending on the positioning of Veigar's allies and who they are. Your point correlates to laning phase though, which Veigar players typically play safe. Unless I was playing blind and bumped into a Zed whose blink ignores cage, I would expect a typical Veigar to have good positioning and avoid scenarios where it's "cage or die".

The delay on cage removes the pressure of being instantly bursted down or stopped due to being caught by cage, it was an interaction that simply needed to go. When thinking of match-ups like Veigar versus malz, Brand, Xerath, Vel'koz, Annie, or even Orianna, these champions now have ways to outplay cage other than "I predict that now that I am applying pressure Veigar is gonna cage right about......now". And champions like Ahri would no longer need to burn an ult in vain to reach Veigar if a gank was ensuing.

I feel like Veigar's E needs a Viktor-lite buff, "enemies caught within the cage for x amount of seconds now are stunned for x at max rank"

SephAgro1 votes

{quoted}

Playing Leblanc into Veigar, is one of the most frustrating things in League, whether he "misses" or lands his stun, your mobility and role in a fight is deleted. I wouldn't call being trapped in cage a "miss" especially depending on the positioning of Veigar's allies and who they are. Your point correlates to laning phase though, which Veigar players typically play safe. Unless I was playing blind and bumped into a Zed whose blink ignores cage, I would expect a typical Veigar to have good positioning and avoid scenarios where it's "cage or die".

The delay on cage removes the pressure of being instantly bursted down or stopped due to being caught by cage, it was an interaction that simply needed to go. When thinking of match-ups like Veigar versus malz, Brand, Xerath, Vel'koz, Annie, or even Orianna, these champions now have ways to outplay cage other than "I predict that now that I am applying pressure Veigar is gonna cage right about......now". And champions like Ahri would no longer need to burn an ult in vain to reach Veigar if a gank was ensuing.

I feel like Veigar's E needs a Viktor-lite buff, "enemies caught within the cage for x amount of seconds now are stunned for x at max rank"

Playing Veigar into Leblanc, is one of the most frustrating things in League, whether she "misses" or lands her w, your damage and role in a fight is deleted. I wouldn't call being insta bursted by a dash a "miss" especially depending on the positioning of Leblanc's allies and who they are. Your point correlates to laning phase though, which Leblanc players typically play obnoxiously aggressive. Unless I was playing blind and bumped into a Zed whose blink can dodge her dash burst, I would expect a typical Leblanc to have good positioning and avoid scenarios where it's "dash or die".

The delay on her dash should remove the pressure of being instantly bursted down or stopped due to being caught by by her weqr combo, its an interaction that simply needs to go. When thinking of match-ups like Leblanc versus malz, Brand, Xerath, Vel'koz, Annie, or even Orianna, these champions now have ways to outplay the dash insta burst other than "I predict that now that I am applying pressure Leblanc is gonna dash right about......now". And champions like Ahri would no longer need to burn an ult in vain to reach Leblanc if a gank was ensuing.

GigglingAngel2 votes

For those who want the number of buffs and nerfs each, here they are:

Buffs = 10 Nerfs = 5

I triple checked the numbers, but I still might have miscounted. If I did, lemme know. lol Still, that's double the buffs than nerfs, and only one of the nerfs is something to really worry about (the stun) if you ask me.

AetherKingdom2 votes

No use in explaining the boards are too retarded to see anything except lee sin being removed as good

GigglingAngel1 votes

{quoted}

No use in explaining the boards are too retarded to see anything except lee sin being removed as good

True. But even if all my intellectual threads like this just get downvoted and people ignore it, still makes me feel good about myself and my post history, since it's not filled with nothing but crap. lol :)

SephAgro2 votes

Except no champ is expected to be glued to their tower. What good is range if you can't ever land your ability. The only purpose his e will have is to drop his mana bar.

Also, someone has already done the math. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Y1Pggprs-the-veigar-changes-all-out-math

The nerfs are far far more punishing than the buffs. Nice try though, guy.

GigglingAngel1 votes

{quoted}

Except no champ is expected to be glued to their tower. What good is range if you can't ever land your ability. The only purpose his e will have is to drop his mana bar.

Also, someone has already done the math. http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Y1Pggprs-the-veigar-changes-all-out-math

The nerfs are far far more punishing than the buffs. Nice try though, guy.

So ... when this change happens, and Veigar is still able to stun plenty of people during teamfights and even in lane, and there's videos of it proving such... You won't get embarrassed when I post them, right? :)

SephAgro2 votes

You are ignoring the impact that the nerfs had over the buffs (particularly the nerf to e). You are trying to get away with the fallacious logic simply based on the number of changes, rather than also take into account the effect that the changes have.

GigglingAngel1 votes

{quoted}

You are ignoring the impact that the nerfs had over the buffs (particularly the nerf to e). You are trying to get away with the fallacious logic simply based on the number of changes, rather than also take into account the effect that the changes have.

And you're making a big deal out of something you haven't even seen or experienced yet. And you're using that same assumed logic against me, saying I'm ignoring the impact the nerfs had.

Yet I did very well say this about the stun nerf: "This will hurt those who were good at aiming the stun right on top of people. However, the coming buffs don't make it too bad."

And then, I went further into explaining the reasoning for the nerf to R's AP ratio. What do people do? T hey say I'm complaining .. it's too good! Lulz!

I'll be sure to save this page so I can show you those videos later. ;D

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