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Riot, Why do you hate vision wards?

Glath Wiermind··23 votes·5,043 views

So, you get rid of sightstone, and then gate it behind Gold generation items, which you'll get at about 10 minutes, maybe sooner if you're doing well, and now you remove Tracker's Knife. Do you just despise vision wards so much that you want to remove any way of getting them out? what next? you remove trinkets from the game?

52 Comments

Jamaree13 votes

Because long ago, in a distance past, wards were the outright best item in the game, bar none. Games dragged on forever because you couldn't catch people out, you couldn't gank as effectively past early game, you couldn't set up to make plays because literal entire sections of the map were lit up like a christmas tree.

Personally, I liked that, fucked getting ganked, but it made for less then entertaining games to watch so nixed the vision was.

Glath Wiermind13 votes

Oh E-Sports. How could I forget, that's the reason for everything. Don't worry about the health of the game, just as long as it's entertaining so we can still make them E-Sports buckaroos.

Jamaree8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Glath Wiermind,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZIXwwJiJ,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-03-02T08:18:15.419+0000)

Oh E-Sports. How could I forget, that's the reason for everything. Don't worry about the health of the game, just as long as it's entertaining so we can still make them E-Sports buckaroos.

Wasn't exactly healthy for the game either, people whined about how long games went on and how impossible it was to make a comeback because you couldn't jump on them.

Winterwings12 votes

And making comebacks now, with this decimated vision system is somehow... possible?

Wolfeur5 votes

Yes, because it's easier to catch them by surprise…

Winterwings11 votes

I was reffering to when YOU are the one who's "behind" in the vision game...

Wolfeur4 votes

Yes, because you can be as ahead as you want, less vision makes you more vulnerable to deathbrushes and other ambushes

PB4UAME3 votes

With the way visions works, let's just forget that if you're ahead you're now automatically ahead in vision with no recourse. SO it just becomes a win-more mechanic much more so than a catch-up mechanic.

Wolfeur1 votes

You know you have a limited access to vision mechanics, and they don't scale with gold

GayFluffyUnicorn2 votes

Wait what. That's not going to happen seeing as you lost completely all control of the map and the few wards you might be able to place get immediately sweeped away. If it all the removal of wards made it harder to comeback.

RiotRiotRepertoir13 votes

We don't hate vision. We think vision is more interesting (makes it more fun) for players when it is in limited supply.

SwiftKitten882 votes

{quoted}

We don't hate vision. We think vision is more interesting (makes it more fun) for players when it is in limited supply.

it is an a limited supply for ne1 not in a 5 man premade. these changes are absolute horrible for lower elo, when you cant rely on your team to place any vision.. whether or not they are needed in higher elo i don't care. my teammates WILL NOT properly ward. the easiest way to carry a game is to ward. and then ping for your blind teammates. i dont have the crazy mechanics to carry a game, what i have the game knowledge to. i can shotcall.

and yeah most of time time i can tell if an enemy is on drag or baron without vision.. but its hard to communicate via text because i can control my chars when typing.. (and i cant type, but i guess thats my own issue).

maybe in high elo losing the extra ward on a jungler means losing 1/5th of the wards

but in lower elo.. if i dont ward i means losing 60+% of my teams vision.. and thats is killer.. so PLEASE give us our trackers knife back.

Tomoe Gozen3 votes

Exactly.
Everyone having vision and warding everything up too early makes them pretty impenetrable to ganks, which then leads to long laning phases and junglers feeling like they can only farm forever. I've also noticed that in pro play, Tracker's Knife is pretty much a must for every jungler to keep a lot of the map visible at all times.

GayFluffyUnicorn7 votes

Bring that back please. After a year i'd enjoy actually having something similar like a laning phase. Apparently riot wants to turn LoL into a hots clone now except hots is more fun than this abomination.

Tomoe Gozen1 votes

One thing is to have a laning phase, the other is to isolate the lane completely and make it impossible to gank unless you have a global ability to help out. That's exactly where Shen and TP used to such a problem in the past but it's really sad how people easily forget the early problems League faced and just want to backtrack to them.

xelaker1 votes

is that the same stance of fun games of league? ya'll are nailing it.

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

Maybe the question is how limited it should be. Before, anyone could (but didn’t) buy a sightstone. That was combined into support items. Now tracker knife is being removed. Unless you’re in higher elo (I assume), vision is pretty rare.

RiotRiotRepertoir8 votes

It's definitely a question of how limited it should be. Vision as a rarity is being taken as a negative by many in this case. I think that over the longer term especially, it will be a positive change.

If we give the game a massive supply vision to be constantly placing and removing during the game, you'd be wise to spend your time doing that, because vision is so powerful. In the absence of some of that vision, you'll fill that time doing the next most powerful thing, and that thing is probably more fun and engaging.

It's about finding the right amount of vision that keeps the game strategically enticing without it being the main thing you do to win the game.

Hellioning7 votes

In the absence of some of that vision, you'll fill that time doing the next most powerful thing, and that thing is probably more fun and engaging.

It absolutely is until a jungler shows up and forces a flash/kills you because you can't keep vision up all the time.

Divewing5 votes

Unfortunately this is the stark reality.

It’s all fun and games until the jungler shows up, then you’re in an unwinnable lane and theres sweet fuck all you can do outside of play safe; the very thing limited vision supposedly tries to discourage

Ifneth1 votes

So you have to think ahead while laning. If you have trinkets, then you can push the wave to your opponent’s tower and place a ward to spot the jungler. If not, then you have to keep the wave at or behind the middle of the lane. Since moving the wave takes time, you’ll have to think about how many wards you have left before you push it.

If you want more vision than your trinkets offer, then you can buy control wards. Since you have only so many, they become something to contest. Find your opponent’s last control ward, and you can freeze the wave, knowing that they won’t have enough vision to cover every gank route.

I like this idea.

Teridax681 votes

Have you considered shifting more vision to plants or other environmental features? The problem with ward-based vision is that it consistently doesn't feel fun to use, even if it's quite powerful, and at certain levels of play it can even be confusing when a player doesn't know they got caught because they stood on an invisible ward. In organized play, wards are also kept at maximum uptime, or close to it, whenever they're made available, so even when their usage is capped, they can still force stalemates in certain important areas, particularly when Zombie Ward factors in as well. By contrast, plants and Scuttle act more as temporary power-ups, and so could allow for a vision system that could be more engaging to players, and that could allow for vision options that wards don't provide, while also limiting the amount of vision any team can have over a certain area.

Crede7772 votes

Except at least in the games I play and watch (Plat-Diamond) limited vision KILLS interactivity by laners because when vision is down you have to play extremely passive and safe due to the potency and effectiveness of jungler ganks.

This in turn kills trading by laners and instead enforces a farm-off or even worse forgoing farm and XP in the hope of staying alive.

The problem isn't vision though. Limited vision is fine if I knew that even when the jungler shows up I have a good chance of making it out if I play my abilities right. Unfortunately, with mobility, CC, jungler clear health and tower damage being what it is, this is usually not the case.

patmax171 votes

It's not like people spammed wards when green wards were a thing, anyway ;) I mean, people complain about vision not being accessible enough, but when it was available to anyone it wasn't like they are depicting it...?

AMYS GRAVE1 votes

Getting unexpectedly jumped on from the fow because you have no vision will never be fun or engaging. Oh cool, rengar/khazix/twitch/etc... just deleted someone before they could respond. gg. That's not at all engaging.

Akali is SO HOT3 votes

How would you feel about allowing players to be able to place up to 2 pink wards on the map at once? It's always feels kinda bad when you put down a really deep pink ward that gives your team good vision, but then if you want to use another pink to clear out baron/dragon all of that vision goes away.

Devilreaper XIII1 votes

{quoted}

We don't hate vision. We think vision is more interesting (makes it more fun) for players when it is in limited supply.

wards are too stronk to be removed! they cause 9999 damage to anyone who attacks it .o. this includes riot dev team O,O would be a nice 1st of april joke kek XD

can i ask how the trinket quest is fulfilled???? i notice i can finish the quest faster with certain champions, i always seem to finish it around the same time with said champions O.o

Scary Door10 votes

This is just part of the way Riot wants their game to go. Vision can, to an extent, help a team that is behind. Even if it is a minor mitigation, more vision could help to prevent snowballing... but Riot clearly likes faster games with more one-sides matches. They may claim that they don't want their game to devolve into what it has become but their actions would suggest otherwise.

nyakasgoods1 votes

In theory, if Riot removes wards from cheaper early game purchases that basically everyone will have access to before severe snowball, that helps the team getting stomped. The more behind a team is, the fewer wards they can safely have out anyways since everything is dangerous and the winning team can clear them. Having less wards affects the team that's ahead more since they lose more potential vision.

Jack Garrus9 votes

Well u have: item 3361 item 2056 when u take Klepto, item 3905 that finds 2 enemies, item 2055 , item 3364 for 20 sec, the poro zombies and that one that replace a dead ward with a visible trinket when u take Domi. In addition to some AoE spells that gives u vision like Lux E, Ashe W, ecc... You have a lot of vision.

DuskDaUmbreon5 votes

Because Zombie and Ghost poro exist. Because many more vision abilities exist.

Because the support item might be slightly slower, but it's significantly faster at any time when you'd need to or would rush something before sightstone, which most people did.

Is it technically slower in potential circumstances? Yes. But it's also faster in real ones.

Slythrin Umbreon1 votes

Zombie Ward is kind of cancer though, although maybe just because of it's combination with item 3147.

BALDG1VEN BOOMER3 votes

They didn’t want supports to be vision bots like before yet they removed almost every adequate available vision from the game.

Häxel3 votes

controlwards, free trinktes, zombieward, ghostporo, visionplant. yep, entirety of vision removed. Compare this to season 4 there wards needed to be purchaised and trinket needed to be upgraded for 475 gold (which no one realy did lowelo).

PB4UAME2 votes

You mean the upgrade that cost less than that, to get 1 ward recharged a minute that would last 3 minutes, effectively letting you keep up 3 wards at a time, upgrading from the current version of the trinket that is all we have?

that also had a ~200g upgrade into a redward trinket so you didn't need to waste an item slot to have pinks? You mean those trinkets? LMFAO you don't know what you're talking about.

Having no limit on pinks, having them be invisible, having no limits on wards and the ability to have 50+ in your inventory if you so desired is worth so much more to the vision game than never being able to purchase wards, and having worse trinkets. There simply isn't a comparison.

If you brought back green wards at 75g, or hell, even 100g, but removed the ward cap, you'd see people in EVERY SINGLE LANE, EVERY SINGLE GAME purchase multiple wards per game at higher Elo and in competitive play. Just because bronzies and silvers won't make good use of items/tactics/abilities/strategies/team comps/rotations, or literally anything else that better players know to do, and know they need to use to have an optimal shot at victory does not somehow make those items/strategies/etc worse, or in anyway lesser.

It just means those players are playing poorly and could be doing much better.

Häxel1 votes

you don't know what i am talking about, do your research better. I talked about season 4 for the simple fact that greater Stealth Totem, Greater Vision Totem and the other Upgrades had costs around 475 gold before they got reduced to 250 Gold at patch 5.1. People didn't upgrade much their trinkets prior to patch 5.1 and people didn't upgrade it much past 5.1. We talking about challenger and master (ok back in old days master didn't exist so diamond proberbly a bit) but defiently not plat and below purchasing much of green and pinkwards or upgrading the trinket. Yea beside the Support no one did. So they got removed patch 5.22 with the free lv 9 upgrade.

Even if you are in some higher elo just cause there is less vision now doesn't mean their is a lack of strategies now, should be the direct opposite. There was just clearly to much vision in the game and their was no skill in learning where to ward and play the game everytime the same. Now with less vision it is again more about using the brain, imagine where the enemie goes, planing straight forward. If you can't do that you should not look down on bronzies and silvers cause than you only lost the ability to buy something in shop but never had much in the brain for strategie. You don't see proplayers complainign about that stuff, they actualy think it is a good move. Look at other mobas, there is clearly far, far less vision. Like dota 2, the whole map is basicly dark and you ahve liek 3 wards on the entire map.

GayFluffyUnicorn4 votes

There is basically no strategy in league anymore. Gank bot, get turret, swap top, get herald, go mid, go baron finish. Every. Single. Game.

Häxel1 votes

this may be true but that has nothing to do with the removal of vision. Farther vision removal will more help riot to open up again new strategies as strenghten this pattern.

Frooster3 votes

They have the Delusional hope that an NA team will eventually beat Korea if they remove all the vision from the game. Quite sad.

Rootlo2 votes

Its just funny how they release stats and want us to ward when every season they nerf Vision a little more. They removed Green wards, removed pink wards ( replaced with red so ehh) Nerfed the yellow trinket horribly, removed sight stone, nerfed blue trinket horribly, removed trackers knife. They wanted to move away from supports being a ward bot but now they are the only class with reliable access to wards. Since they removed trackers knife they should at least revert the Yellow trinket changes

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

But why? Literally only Nunu and Lee Sin bought Tracker's Knife in anything below like challenger and even THEN it was still fairly common for Lee Sin to opt for red smite because "muh damage". Tracker's Knife had been the exact same for forever yet NO ONE bought it and now people are crying bloody murder that it is ruining the game for the average player with it being gone. The Tracker's Knife changes literally only affects the top end of the playerbase since that's the only group of players consistently opting for it.

GayFluffyUnicorn1 votes

And you think it is a good change because it only affects the better players??? Stop wanting the better players to become worse, try to get better yourself.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

Yes? I don't know if you watched any professional games, but the maps were constantly lit up like a christmas tree due to both junglers having trackers knives, the supports having their support item, and even some mid laners were opting for Eye of the Watchers because you couldn't have enough vision. That being said, when you have near infinite vision it is impossible to do literally ANYTHING on the map so the games dragged on as 20+ minute farmfests into late games where still nothing got done.

Somebody Love Me1 votes

They're also removing bandit, so supports get even less gold on their items, thus getting their wards a bit later.

ChaddyFantome3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Actual Trash,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=ZIXwwJiJ,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-03-02T21:09:14.546+0000)

They're also removing bandit, so supports get even less gold on their items, thus getting their wards a bit later.

Bandit was honeslty not needed. Supports get enough power and gold currently as is without bandit.

Idk why Riot is removing it specifically, but honestly after the Sightstone change, supports need less free early gold.

Somebody Love Me3 votes

I'd be more okay with it our wards weren't locked behind that free gold

Marshbouy1 votes

Because it results in extremely boring LCS games where nothing happens because both teams know where everyone is at almost all times.

ChaddyFantome3 votes

{quoted}

Because it results in extremely boring LCS games where nothing happens because both teams know where everyone is at almost all times.

All the change will do is promote EVEN mORE safe boring games because now everyone is too scared to make a move because they dont know where anyone is.

Alpha777Omega1 votes

nothing to do with wards but your graphics are total shittt

lolipopevelynn1 votes

i remember when you could buy and place an unlimited amount of green wards. played janna or raka or nami and just gave literal map hacks to your entire team. you didnt have to actually support anyone. if all you did the entire game was go 0/0/0 but placed 200+ wards during that game you were winning the game.

believe it or not, i actually find that kind of gameplay fun as a old time RTS starcraft and starcraft 2 zerg player. it allowed for literal map control and map manipulation. vision and denying vision was a strategy game itself and you could control the enemy teams movements based on that vision and vision denial. I kind of hope riot releases a champion that has a direct influence over the MAP itself. those that play zagara or abathur in HoTS know what im talking about. its real strategy that leads to wins in a different way compared to just brute forcing your way down a lane thru one shotting people in team vs team death balls.

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