Veigar's gameplay/Identity

Windfallen··6 votes·1,101 views

I'm gonna do this thing where I have my own Q&A and it'll be fun!

Q: What is Veigar known for? A: High burst damage, teamfight cc, also the ability to directly farm for more AP through his Q, similar to Nasus

Q: What are the strengths and weaknesses of this champion? A: His strengths are that he has high AP scaling and gains an advantage over other champions building AP, along with his cc that can effectively zone or punish people for getting caught. Also the potential for "infinite" scaling on AP means that his power is not limited by items. He's got a strong lategame.

His weaknesses boil down to the fact that his offensive stun is also his only real defense. He's squishy and it's hard to survive being targeted without it. While his ultimate has a very high kill potential, his ability to trade damage without it can be lackluster. Unless he's very fed and has farmed for more AP of course. He's got a weak early game. Also, note that as a combo mage with one form of cc... He is very weak to itemization such as item 3102 anditem 3140 and can fall flat if the enemy knows this.

Q: What do players like about playing veigar? A: My guess would be that he has a very straightforward playstyle that is centered around an unusual hitbox "skillshot" If a player can land this one skill, they will land everything else in Veigar's kit in many scenarios. Also, since his ult does such a great amount of damage, especially so against champions building AP, the player may only have to walk with in range and target the enemy to get the kill if they are low enough. Toss a free q while your in range too! Everybody likes getting kills. (Mostly... I'm sure Veigar does anyway)

Q: What do you think new and old players would dislike about veigar? A: Simple. Infinite scaling is a scary concept. There's a possibility he'll have more firepower than any other mage in the game if he's not properly dealt with. The whole idea of a burst mage is also scary, even more so when a lot of that power is at disposal through targeting. It cannot be avoided unless you have invulnerability or a shield that completely absorbs a spell ( like item 3102 ) which also brings me back to itemization weakness he suffers when enemies build them. This is probably a reason why he isn't seen much in competitive play as well.

At the moment, a mage without mobility is quite hard master and play competitively. Not that it can't be done! Though, coupled with the fact that they are countered by spending habits in the shop makes them also very hard to fit into todays meta.

While I think that some changes are a valiant effort to make Veigar see more play and be less unforgiving to play against, I think that changes to the way the game works would cure a lot of champions problems before jumping to minor reworks. A skillshot Q sounds great and maybe even a skillshot ult would be awesome... While chunking people with a targeted ability is cool and all, the fact that is so devastating makes me think that it needs some kind of parameter to reach it's full potential! And no, i don't mean changing the ratios. A delayed AoE stun sure sounds more healthy, but the way it's being implemented atm is too crippling to the champ itself if you were to think about his weaknesses. He either uses it offensively, or defensively to escape/retaliate.

I think they should go slow with veigar. Clean up the passive a bit and make the Q a skillshot. See how he fairs with some ratio changes.

If single target targeted burst is to remain in the game and be viable, but still counterable... then these abilities need to have the cooldowns shortened when absorbed by spellshields, windwalls and invulnerability. The counterplay is there still, but less punishing when acknowledged the ability has been negated and will be back up in less time than if it had actually landed. No, I don't think it should be a law or a rule.... but something tacked onto certain abilities. You know, for the champs that are in need of this or would enjoy the benefit, but wouldnt be broken with it. Malzahar

13 Comments

SephAgro2 votes

Riot wont listen. They know best and they will gut w/e champion they want and non of the players have any say in it.

Windfallen1 votes

I'm gonna be blunt. I didn't even mention in the "What players would dislike about Veigar" the fact that he literally, ultimately, punishes you for building one of the main stats (AP). Which is really quite a pain. On top of infinite scaling/stacking, something I personally feel doesn't belong in any champions kit.

In fact, I dislike Veigar... but indeed it sucks when an underplayed champ gets changed not for the better! He's a headache to me, but I would love to see him improved because of that charming personality he's got going for him.

I don't know why Riot does what they do in the order they do it, but I am sure they do not plan to stop making changes anytime soon. Feedback is important and needs to be constant/consistent. Nobody has the right to be heard, but to speak up. As a person who plays a lot of ranked, I know that a champion doesn't need consistent winrates to be fun and playable.

I don't plan on reaching challenger with Veigar.

/Shrug

I'm just sorry I'm longwinded and that in the end I feel like I haven't covered everything.

SephAgro2 votes

Any reasonable game designer would take into account the storm of feedback Riot's been getting on Veigar recently. Riot doesn't have some infallible super computer that decides perfect gameplay balance changes all the time. I expect millions of players who have dedicated hundreds of hours to certain champions to know a whole lot more about those champions than Riot. Since Riot exposes a lot of stats through their API, I don't really think that they have any more tools than what the average player can obtain himself with a little digging. Maybe I'm wrong. But I'm not going to pretend they always know best simply because "it's their game". I've spent several years playing Veigar and being exposed to almost every possible match up. These changes are going to destroy him.

wolfax4 votes

Have you played him no the PBE? I've heard several people on the PBE say that he actually feels a lot better and farms way more AP than he used to. If you haven't been playing him on the PBE than how can you just blatantly say these changes will destroy him?

And let's be honest, Veigar is almost all point and click abilities. Riot's not going to let him be strong when his kill potential is walk with X units of the champion he wants to delete.

SephAgro1 votes

{quoted}

Have you played him no the PBE? I've heard several people on the PBE say that he actually feels a lot better and farms way more AP than he used to. If you haven't been playing him on the PBE than how can you just blatantly say these changes will destroy him?

And let's be honest, Veigar is almost all point and click abilities. Riot's not going to let him be strong when his kill potential is walk with X units of the champion he wants to delete.

I've been playing him on PBE since Friday. He is absolutely shit. 'People' havent been saying he feels better. A small minority of posters have said that. But the vast majority of the feedback is that q is questionable, w is impossible to land without stun, r's damage is abysmal, and e is completely useless. Nice try buddy, few Ahri mains posting that Veigar is good now, basically lying for the sake of WANTING these changes to go through.

Even if you farmed a perfect game, your damage will only reach DFG levels. So you guys can keep pushing the 'you can farm better now!' angle until the cows come home. Its not making up for the removal of dfg and nerfs to his abilities.

Windfallen1 votes

He's actually half point and click, but the ultimate makes you think otherwise, on account of the damage it does, doesn't it?

If he's gonna keep this kit he needs his power shifted around. Probably less of a delay on the stun as the changes go, I'm for that. I watched a bot in a custom game on PBE walk into it and I shook my head... it's almost like it tried get stunned!

I feel as though his W shouldn't be utterly reliant on the target being cc'd, rather should be another form of control veigar has.... not through cc, but a whopping amount of damage you'll take if you don't quickly step to the nearest outlining of the ability, which coupled with the E would make things more interesting.

SephAgro1 votes

{quoted}

He's actually half point and click, but the ultimate makes you think otherwise, on account of the damage it does, doesn't it?

If he's gonna keep this kit he needs his power shifted around. Probably less of a delay on the stun as the changes go, I'm for that. I watched a bot in a custom game on PBE walk into it and I shook my head... it's almost like it tried get stunned!

I feel as though his W shouldn't be utterly reliant on the target being cc'd, rather should be another form of control veigar has.... not through cc, but a whopping amount of damage you'll take if you don't quickly step to the nearest outlining of the ability, which coupled with the E would make things more interesting.

The mana cost and cooldown are way too high for it to be used for control. Again, why would I pick Veigar for control when he can't spam spells, but I can pick say, Azir who's w can actually be used for control and zoning.

Sire Hippington4 votes

A reasonable game designer ignores 90% that is said on this foums, unless it'S well elaborated, as most people don't understand anything of that matter. most just want theri 'main' to become as poerfull as possible and give a fuck on what it's like to play against that champ or any design values. Not saying that riot doesn't make mistakes or should totally ignore all feedback, but most of the forums feedback is prettymuch pure bullshit and it's hard to filter out relevant comments.

And i defintly do think that riot often is somewhat rutine-blinded, but they definitly have alot more elaborated data to their dispotial than any player, despite sides like lolking.

Sire Hippington1 votes

i think they go the right way on veigar(played him on PBE) It's true that his current pbe is slightly to weak, but the direction is right, he just needs some small adjustments to become less vulnerable.

Some sort of increased defens or a shield while he's within the event horizon, starting even befor the delay, would help alot vs asassins, which right now can easily kill him with that delay on the stun. The other change i'd like to see would be a improved W, either less delay, maybe bound to how far it is from the center of event horizon, or a bigger aoe with a hydra/pant ult style damage fall-off. Right now, his W is nearly impossible to land without cc, and since his stun is a lot harder to land his W bacame alot less effective aswell.

SephAgro1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Don Pavoni,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Z8AF1H2L,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-02-16T03:17:43.054+0000)

i think they go the right way on veigar(played him on PBE) It's true that his current pbe is slightly to weak, but the direction is right, he just needs some small adjustments to become less vulnerable.

Some sort of increased defens or a shield while he's within the event horizon, starting even befor the delay, would help alot vs asassins, which right now can easily kill him with that delay on the stun. The other change i'd like to see would be a improved W, either less delay, maybe bound to how far it is from the center of event horizon, or a bigger aoe with a hydra/pant ult style damage fall-off. Right now, his W is nearly impossible to land without cc, and since his stun is a lot harder to land his W bacame alot less effective aswell.

Increased defense? A shield? This has nothing to do with Veigar's identity. When looking at champions, you have to ask yourself: "what is it about this champion that sets them apart?". Why would I pick Veigar over another mage? His whole identity is that he instagibs someone - or insta dies - then goes on cooldown and does nothing. This is who he is. This is his dream. He doesn't need his kit changed to the point where I could just pick another champion that would do the same thing he does, but way better.

Sire Hippington1 votes

Things get problematic if the identity clahes with the design philosophy. Sometimes the identity needs to shift on a outdated champ(like Sion) Istakilling someone with no counterplay(meaning the enemy has no ways to react if it happens, in veigars case that is everything he does is instand and point n click, besides W which will hit anyways due the stun. you can't dodge anything, if the stun lands is in veigars hands and in his hands only)

Theres also more to veigars theme than just nuke and forget, but i agree that a shield or defensboost does not fit him thematically, but it's what he needs gameplay wise. Maybe a damage debuff vs targets inside the E would fit better, but only if they attack veigar, otherwise it would probably be to strong.

Windfallen1 votes

Wow, I really like that last idea! All damage done to veigar is reduced to X% if the attack originates from inside the event horizon.

Bonipherus1 votes

I created a post about this and I'm just going to copy and paste it below on my general thoughts of Veigar's theme and how his kit should feel.

 I agree that Veigar's event horizon change was a nerf to his overall game play (both offensively and defensively) but I do agree with the change matching his theme. It's much more of an evil feel when you're captured in the cage by Veigar and he is throwing skill shots at you with little room to dodge out of the way rather than insta-stun into a full combo which either you have the items/abilities to deal with or you get one shot. The change is healthier overall in both theme and game play.

 The least interesting part of his play would be his ult. It is just a targeted nuke that  deals bonus damage to players who built ability power. If I was in charge I would change his ult to resemble his W skill and then change his W to an area denial ability with a bit of cc. The new W could act as not only damage, but it could act as a form of defense against those mobile opponents who might be able to get around his stun. 

 The more I envision Veigar and his theme in my head,the more Emperor Mateus from Final Fantasy 2 keeps popping up. If anyone has played Dissidia, I think you could picture it too. Denying your opponent space and manipulating them into your trap before bombarding them with your spells. You don't have the mobility options the others have but the satisfaction of the outplay when you get them in your clutches is just the best. In your head you're like" that was all planned" (even if it wasn't) and it just puts a big smile on your face. To me, this seems like the core of how Veigar should feel.

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