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About the Triforce changes on the PBE

yay nibbers··13 votes·3,089 views
5/17 PBE Update: El Leon Gnar & El Macho Mundo, new Ward skin, balance changes, and more!

Now Builds out of Stinger instead of Zeal. Total price reduced to 3600 3733 from 3800 (price raised in the PBE update that followed) Attack speed increased to 40% from 15% Cooldown reduction increased to 20% from 10% Critical Strike Chance reduced to 0 from 20%

What is the goal with these changes? Maybe I just don't know better, but it seems like the only people who are going to benefit from this are Irelia and Jax as they like to build Triforce but still auto attack a lot.

Most other Triforce builders don't play like this however. Corki, Gangplank, and Yasuo all lose out with the removal of crit. To a lesser extent, champions like Nasus, the occasional Rengar, and other champs who build it primarily for the spellblade proc also lose out because they don't really need the attack speed but critting 20% of the time can be huge. Not to mention in Nasus's case it throws his current build out of whack because now it'll give him too much CDR where he had exactly 40% before with Triforce, Frozen Heart and Spirit Visage

Besides, isn't the point of Triforce (besides the spellblade passive) to give a little bit of everything? It gives as much attack speed as Runaan's Hurricane now.

48 Comments

Twitch Chat6 votes

Illaoi, Darius, pretty much every bruiser will appreciate it much more after the change. Since the synergy between tri and ER mostly went away I don't think theres much of a reason to keep it geared towards ADCs. GP will need buffs to survive but it's better to buff one champ than to hold back itemization for a number of them.

SpongebobIsLife2 votes

What about corki? It's also a strong build on yasuo and you are also tying ez for both the present and the future to the blue build, so now if changes come through to the blue build, ez is screwed.

Twitch Chat2 votes

{quoted}

What about corki? It's also a strong build on yasuo and you are also tying ez for both the present and the future to the blue build, so now if changes come through to the blue build, ez is screwed.

What about corki? He likes attack speed too. There's more crit items in the world for yasuo and tf is trash on ezreal anyways

When talking about how the change will affect ez and corki keep in mind triforce didn't always give 20% crit. It was their staple item when it gave as low as 10% crit. I'll make the argument that new triforce will be better on ezreal than the current one.

SpongebobIsLife1 votes

its not trash on ezreal, ibg and manamune is just more cost-effecient. And you're talking about losing out on 20 percent crit chance on a burst oriented adc, corki is not a sustained damage adc like cait or trist, ad casters are all about bursting out as much damage as possible. Losing the 20 percent crit heavily affects his mid game. I also don't think the new triforce will be better on ez, because if you are going that build, you are depending on crit for damage, losing 20 percent is huge.

BluePolarizer4 votes

Triforce used to be 10% crit and Ez still built it. 10% crit is essentially ignorable.

This makes triforce accessible to way more champs than before while buffing core users and eliminating OP abuse cases.

SpongebobIsLife1 votes

you mean jax and irelia? No other champion besides those and maybe hecarim would rather have the attack speed.

lostbob1171 votes

Ezreal would rather have the atk spd and cdr

SpongebobIsLife1 votes

once again, not on the triforce build, that's a more crit dependent build.

lostbob1172 votes

No, just build tri instead ibg with muramana OR go tri->botrk like he use to.

SpongebobIsLife1 votes

in the latter, what did he build after bork? And the ibg tri build isnt as strong because oom much faster since tf gives 250 less mana than ibg does. Normally you'd go ER to make up for the difference, but again without crit...

lostbob1171 votes

The 250 mana does not matter with muramana. The latter was LW. Though I can see him getting bc instead and then getting more armpen if needed.

Dreadlocks3 votes

I think they should just make another item instead of changing this item. It's been like this for years and all the sudden we have to change it? Why?

Twitch Chat6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Rengo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YIUtIwmo,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-05-19T20:56:34.494+0000)

I think they should just make another item instead of changing this item. It's been like this for years and all the sudden we have to change it? Why?

It hasn't been like this for years. The emphasis on crit is something that has come up in the last 6 months and unless you want to nerf zeal's crit back down to a negligible amount then it needs to be replaced by a different item in the recipe.

yay nibbers2 votes

That's the point though. Why remove the crit in the first place? Why not just up the attackspeed a bit on the triforce we have now? Why do we have to fundentally change an item that is perfectly fine as is?

Twitch Chat3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ron Pitts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YIUtIwmo,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-05-19T21:54:36.732+0000)

That's the point though. Why remove the crit in the first place? Why not just up the attackspeed a bit on the triforce we have now? Why do we have to fundentally change an item that is perfectly fine as is?

And what happens if you give massive buffs to an item that is "perfectly fine as it is"?

yay nibbers1 votes

It's not just a plain buff though. They're removing an entire stat from it. That's not a buff to several of the champs that use it.

Twitch Chat2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ron Pitts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YIUtIwmo,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-20T00:45:39.707+0000)

It's just a plain buff though. They're removing an entire stat from it. That's not a buff to several of the champs that use it.

Clearly the point of the changes is not a straight buff to triforce. They want to make it appealing as a bruiser item again. I wasn't clear with my post so I'll say it clearly: overpowering triforce so that it has both high attack speed and high crit chance for the same cost is not a viable option and increasing the cost to compensate would lead to the item being useless on everyone because it would be too expensive.

yay nibbers1 votes

I apologize for misunderstanding your post. It's fine as a bruiser item now though. I can see the extra CDR being really good buy why would a bruiser need more attack speed? Jax, Irelia, Udyr and likely Shyvana and Darius are going to benefit most from this change while Gangplank, Corki, Ezreal, Yasuo and anyone else who want the crit are getting screwed (especially Gangplank and Yasuo). You gain two buyers and lose at least two. If they wanted to buff it they could just push the small price decrease to make it more accessible. Though I believe it's perfectly fine as is. The same bruisers that always bought it regularly are buying it like they always have and there are only two ADCs I can think of off the top of my head that buy it regularly.

The Yetii Rider2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ron Pitts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YIUtIwmo,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-05-19T21:54:36.732+0000)

That's the point though. Why remove the crit in the first place? Why not just up the attackspeed a bit on the triforce we have now? Why do we have to fundentally change an item that is perfectly fine as is?

Because crit chance gives access to crit damage, and crit damage is 200% no matter how low your crit chance is. It feels awful to get thrashed in an even skillful duel because one guy got lucky or unlucky.

Riot is making Trinity Force more predictable and less RNG based and that is a good thing.

LadyRenly1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ron Pitts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YIUtIwmo,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-05-19T21:54:36.732+0000)

That's the point though. Why remove the crit in the first place? Why not just up the attackspeed a bit on the triforce we have now? Why do we have to fundentally change an item that is perfectly fine as is?

triforce was fundamentally changed to make it appealing to marksman, even though it was perfectly fine as it was

yay nibbers1 votes

It wasn't though. They only increased the crit rate because Zeal's stats were change. If they wanted it to appeal to marksmen, they would've given it even more crit and even more attackspeed. They didn't though, they gave it the minimum attackspeed and crit that they could considering Zeal's stats. All the changes that were made to it in patch 5.22 were merely a consequence of its component items being changed. Hell, if you look in the patch 5.22 notes you'll note that there is not only no context given for the changes, but it isn't even in the "Marksman Itemization" section. How anyone came to the conclusion that they changed it for marksmen is beyond me.

The only marksmen buying it are Ezreal and Corki. Not even Lucain is buying it anymore. Not even Jhin, who has a high base AD and frequently casts spells is buying it. Aside from those TWO marksmen who are buying, everyone else are bruisers or the occasional assassin and all melee.

Dreadlocks3 votes

...trinity has been like this for years not just 6 months. I don't think we're on the same page. Sure it's been tweeked, but it's always been. Sheen zeal phage.

Twitch Chat3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Rengo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YIUtIwmo,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2016-05-19T22:05:40.413+0000)

...trinity has been like this for years not just 6 months. I don't think we're on the same page. Sure it's been tweeked, but it's always been. Sheen zeal phage.

....so you're just hung up on the fact that zeal won't be a part of the recipe? I'm talking about how tri has been specialized towards ADC buyers since preseason. ezreal and corki buy it but it's primarily been a bruiser item since before the last 6 months.

yay nibbers1 votes

Ezreal and Corki are the only ADCs that buy it though. Practically everyone else that buys it are still bruisers and are the same champs that have been buying it even before the change, with the addition of Yasuo. Triforce really only changed at all because of how it's components changed, but everyone who bought it before still bought it. If they wanted ADCs to buy it, why lower the attack speed on it like they did? Why lower the movespeed like they did? What good does 10% CDR even do for most ADCs when Essence Reaver does it better? They're trying to "fix" an item that isn't even broken.

Reaper Review1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ron Pitts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YIUtIwmo,comment-id=00020000000100000000,timestamp=2016-05-20T00:55:12.497+0000)

Ezreal and Corki are the only ADCs that buy it though. Practically everyone else that buys it are still bruisers and are the same champs that have been buying it even before the change, with the addition of Yasuo. Triforce really only changed at all because of how it's components changed, but everyone who bought it before still bought it. If they wanted ADCs to buy it, why lower the attack speed on it like they did? Why lower the movespeed like they did? What good does 10% CDR even do for most ADCs when Essence Reaver does it better? They're trying to "fix" an item that isn't even broken.

They gutted the AS on it because of the assumption that ADCs would buy it, since they buy other sources of AS as well. That, plus the fact that AS plus higher Crit takes up a large amount of power budget on an item due to how the two stats interact. That's why the Zeal upgrades generally only give upgraded Zeal stats.

yay nibbers1 votes

If that was indeed the intention then it worked because they aren't buying it, save for Corki and Ezreal who don't need the attackspeed anyway. My point is that all the same people are buying it as before. If Riot did intend for Marksmen to buy it as DONGLORD insists, they failed at that. Not even Miss Fortune, whose Q procs spellblade effects, is buying it.

Reaper Review2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ron Pitts,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YIUtIwmo,comment-id=0002000000010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-05-20T01:18:21.042+0000)

Not even Miss Fortune, whose Q procs spellblade effects, is buying it.

Miss Fortune doesn't buy it because her base AD is pathetic. She has 63 base AD at level 18.

yay nibbers1 votes

True, but what about Lucian or Kog'Maw? Graves? Surely Jhin could make good use of it, his base AD is relatively high, even compared to a lot non-marksmen.

Sire Hippington1 votes

i and many other switched to iceborn as sheen item on most bruisers, as the low as and high crit on trinity since oreseason 6 don't suit them very well. The new trinity will bring it back as an item that is focused at bruisers rather than on adc that didn't bother buying it anyway.

Dreadlocks1 votes

Taking crit out of the item hurts more than just ADCs... you hurt, champions like Yasuo, GP, Rengar. I'm not saying fighters like udyr, jax, and irelia won't like the new one. But I don't think the item will be necessarily better with this change either.

And trinity is def not favored towards ADCs.. not more than fighters at least.

Reaper Review1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Red Rengo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=YIUtIwmo,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-05-19T20:56:34.494+0000)

I think they should just make another item instead of changing this item. It's been like this for years and all the sudden we have to change it? Why?

So make an item that basically only Gangplank would build often? Then you have the WotA problem where Gangplank is balanced around an item that only he builds reliably.

(Corki deals hybrid damage anyway, so he doesn't need huge crit numbers as much for scaling purposes as other ADCs. Yasuo will survive, he can still go TF/IE/PD and have 100% crit chance + Spellblade. He just won't hit 100% crit off of only TF+PD anymore.)

doubleguac2 votes

Well, what's the other solution? Because as of right now:

  1. A huge portion of Gangplank's power budget is loaded into Q crits
  2. There are only two efficient crit items left for him to build (IE and ER)

If this change goes through, Gangplank will not be able to efficiently access a huge portion of his power.

Attack speed is a poor stat on GP. GP will already have to spend a lot of extra gold on a stat he doesn't want. On top of that, there are no other good crit items for him to buy to make up for that lost 20%. The only two options (static shiv and PD) both force him to spend even MORE gold on attack speed.

To add insult to injury, trinity force will now overstack his CDR when combined with essence reaver (one of his two remaining efficient crit items). Which is another wasted 300 gold.

Basically, one of his core items is being heavily nerfed for him, and there are no items in the game that he can plausibly replace it with.

The GP rework completely pigeon-holed him into a glass cannon crit build. Riot needs to keep some crit items in the game that he can build without feeling bad.

Reaper Review1 votes

{quoted}

Well, what's the other solution?

Tweak Gangplank to accommodate for the loss of that 20% crit from Trinity, obviously.

You said it yourself that he got pigeon-holed into a setup where he basically needs Trinity as it functions now, which is poor design in that case and should be remedied anyway.

Also, I want to point out that Trinity + Reaver + Infinity Edge is still an even 40% CDR after this change. 20% from Trinity, 10% from Reaver, and 10% from the crit chance on IE. (Remember that they changed Reaver's conversion ratio a bit. 20% crit chance = 10% CDR)

HotChilly1 votes

I agree the best way to fix this issue is to change GP and maybe corki, as those two are mostly alone in their love for current Trinity, and will prob really hurt without it.

Also on a side note, just because GP will not be taking full advantage of the ER anymore because of the crit nerfs on triforce doesnt really mean that the item is suddenly a gold efficient buy because it will happen to reach 40% with trinity and ER, mostly this means that ER and Tri are very gold inefficient to be built together, as you arent able to ever take advantage of the whole price tag that ER is budgeted for without going over cap.

But thats all besides the point, I totally agree they should probably go with the changes to triforce, as a lot of champs are excited about the change, and give GP some changes directly to his kit to keep him in a spot where he can feel good

BluePolarizer2 votes

Hecarim Udyr XinZhao Irelia Jax Nasus aren't "most triforce users"?

lolk.

A Bad Nasus2 votes

Yea there is no reason to build it on Nasus anymore... item 3025 all the way.

Sire Hippington1 votes

Nasus profits from the as and increased cdr aswell, it most likely will be about as good as now on him.

LilxPaprika2 votes

It's growing on me, I think gp, yasuo, cork I have alternatives

Gp could probably still build it anyways with IE and stattik shiv. Though I think an atmas impaler item might help. Or a crit chance keystone perhaps.

I think there are more champions who will gain from this than those who might lose.

For nasus with flask for mana instead of frozen heart should do the trick.
I do think having better mana glyphs would solve any mana needs.

rG Thundrag1 votes

with the removal of crit mordekaiser can actually go trinity again along with item 3001 item 3157 for max CDR and tons of extra burst not mention a large sum of AS

agbudar1 votes

item 3078 it was strange they made this a nearly marksman exclusive item to begin with. and most of the marksman that were building it like you said were quite strong perhaps needed that nerf? the combination of a 2 sec cd empowered attack + 20% of whopping extra crit might have been too much? besides in any case the 10->20% cdr and atk speed are all very good plus the cost reduction as well. easier access to those stats and the item will work out quite well i think, without nerfing those champions that bought it for the combined crit/empower too much

Darkslayer851 votes

I think the biggest change is the price. RIP OCD players like me.

yay nibbers2 votes

333 combine cost tho

HotChilly1 votes

If they do this change they should do some direct changes to GP's kit as well, he was nerfed heavily for having such strong synergy with the new marksmen item update, GP will now need some help, with triforce feeling more mediocre on him

Lady Hammerlock1 votes

Im just afraid for Corki he'll likely get compensation buffs the patch after this...Triforce+IE+RFC was such a neat build and if it Crit you would hurt so much

Sire Hippington1 votes

there are many more champs that would like the new trinity more than the old, like Kindred Shen Shyvana Skarner Trundle Udyr... There are many champs that synergies well with the spellblade proc and prefer AS heavily over crit. The only champs that would have prefered the old one are GP, yasuo and marksmen, and the only marksmen that really did use the old one was corki, Ez vastly preferes the bluebuilt atm. And yasuo can still use it together with IE and another zeal item, just how he used to get SS, IE and trinity in previous seasons. So basically only gp and corki suffer from that change, and a wide range of bruisers and some other champs profit from it.

HotChilly1 votes

Yup pretty much this, there are more attack speed based champs than crit ones when you dont count marksmen (which we shouldnt because most of them dont use tri)

This change makes sense as it is better for more champs, but something should be done for Corki and GP, either a new item for pretty much just those two, which seems a bit silly, so most likely just adding some power directly into their kits is the way to go.

I expect it to take like 3-4 patches but I figure buffs will come their way eventually after losing so much synergy with their core item

Vistha Kai1 votes

You expect logic from Riot, take a look at their last patch notes.

TL;DR "True damage means the damage you see is the damage you get, no decreases or increases, as such Drake buff no longer increases true damage."

Whole paragraph later: "Turrets now take 66% less true damage."

Yfrappefort1 votes

Teemo will also benefit a lot from this change. Crit was useless on him. He will get a lot more out of the AS and CR boost.

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